Pro and Con 392

Uploaded 9-23-99

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Reference P&C 390:
Comment #1
Approximately one year ago, in the spring, I was in the passenger seat of a van, with a friend of mine and his wife. It was raining, and then clearing, therefore a Rainbow formed. Well, as we were moving at 40 miles per hour, myself and the other two people witnessed the Rainbow literally MOVING to chase the van, and speeding DIRECTLY at the door on my side, and coming RIGHT INTO the van and on to me! We were all absolutely astonished when this happened, because none of us had EVER witnessed this ever before. I say this NOT to claim any glory upon my self, and I am humble in my total servitude to the TRINITY of GOD. I am sharing this story to encourage all the brothers and sisters out there to always be watching for our Father's signs!

Comment #2 I believe with all my heart, mind, soul, and body that the only true believer is one who has the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of them. These are the members of the Church of Philadelphia (Agape Love), and the Church of Smyrna (those who endure persecution for their Christianity). These are the only groups that I believe will be taken in the first Rapture of 1Thess 4:13-18. So, I write to all those that feel that incredible comfort of the Holy Spirit inside. All who do will bear some fruit. It will take many forms, based on the scriptures of Galatians 5 and Ephesians 5. I have been strongly motivated by the Holy Spirit to give something to people and ministries  where I am "fed the word of God". Now understand everyone, I am emphatically stating that one does not "buy" their way to salvation, or "buy" Christian friendship. Marilyn Agee has assisted me. through the Holy Spirit that dwells in her to understand what I think is the most misunderstood and criticized Biblical revelation, the First and Second Raptures! I feel that this is an important message to get out to as many people as possible, and believe that the Sisters and Brothers should donate some small monetary gift to support Marilyn's web pages. I believe that when we give in this way, that when our works are made manifest in Heaven, we will meet others from this existence in flesh who were brought to the truth and saved through something that we supported, even though we never knew them until eternity in Heaven.
In AGAPE LOVE to all

My reply

Gee, thanks for all those nice things you said.

I am so pleased to hear of another who had a special rainbow experience. The one we were in did not come inside the car, and I drove into it. We saw it way off before we got to it. We got to it just as I was planning to turn off that street. I asked Ed if it was ok to keep on going. He said, "Yes." I did until it began to fade and the other end got exceptionally bright, brighter than I ever saw a rainbow get. Then I turned toward it, found a street to go back on to get Ed's prescription filled (the reason we were there in the first place). I parked facing the rainbow and stayed in the car awhile watching it. That end stayed a bright triangle quite awhile when all the rest had faded. Before that, I didn't even know anyone could ever be at the end of the rainbow. Until now, I sure didn't know one could come into a van and splash color on a person. Whew! that must have been a thrill you will never forget.

The Lord speaks of his bow. He must be showing it to us because the time of his coming is near. Gen. 9:13 says, "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." Verse 17 says, "This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."

I was lucky enough to have a picture of the very end we were in published in the paper the next day. The whole double rainbow was so huge, the photographer only got one segment, but it was the right one. I have it on the wall by my desk. It was taken from the freeway adjacent to the next city, and still the colors are astonishingly bright. I have never seen another one that bright.

Another thing that is interesting is that you saw it in the spring, because Pentecost is in the spring. One year ago would be spring 1998, when I think the four years of Lu. 13:6-9 began. The one we saw was Jan. 26, 1999, but that was the very day I finally got it straight in my head that Pentecost was Sivan 7.

Jan. 23rd was when the huge gamma-ray burster was seen in the tip of the spear of Bootes too. Bootes means TO COME. It looks like the Lord doesn't want us to be discouraged because we have to wait a bit longer than we had hoped.

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...How do you get over that awful feeling in your stomach (or wherever it is) when you glimpse for a moment what eternity really means. Especially now days, when time is such a part of our lives, it's hard to imagine what "no end" really means. I know you know what I'm talking about.

...i've read a few people who refer to the stars that fall to earth as angels, i believe that babylon will indeed be destroyed, I've just seen in the bible that the "stars" were angels?

thanks again for your prompt response.

ps did you look up ecl1214?

My reply

When I think of living forever, I am so grateful that the Lord didn't grant Adam eternal life with evil in the world. That is a kindness that reveals the fact that, right off the bat, he cared about us. I wouldn't want to live forever under those circumstances. We have worked so hard, day after day after day to the point of exhaustion, lived right, believed in the Lord, trusted him for everything, done unto others as we would have done unto us, yet we have been cheated, conned, and reviled. Is that fair? No. This world is not fair, or just. The good suffer along with the bad. What this world is--is a testing ground, a proving ground to see what we are made of. How do we stand up with plenty? How do we stand up with little? in sickness? in health? when tired? when rested? Do we obey the Lord in all circumstances? Do we walk by faith? Do we hang on to hope in the face of adversity?

Heb. 11 tells us of the superiority of the faith way. "NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed (lit., ages were planned) by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." We see that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sarah all have had the chance to return to this Earth. "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they DESIRE A BETTER COUNTRY, THAT IS, AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city" (Heb. 11:15,16).

We too have a chance to be in the heavenly city, the better place where nothing is allowed to defile it. That will be the place worth living forever in. "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Rev. 21:27). "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." Better days are coming for those that have accepted Christ as their Saviour, and worse days are coming for those that have not. For my part, I want no part of the worse days. These days are bad enough. I am ready for the better days. The Lord can't come too soon for me. I won't look back. This world has no attraction for me. I want to be in the better place with the Lord who cared enough for me to die for me.

I don't have an awful feeling to get over. I am really looking forward to the world to come and am grateful that I can spend eternity with the gracious Lord in a place without evil lurking at every turn.

> the "stars" were angels?

Stars can be used symbolically, and they can be used literally. In Rev. 8:10, we know to take it literally when we read, "there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid or meteorite) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp," because verse 8 says, "a great MOUNTAIN burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood."

did you look up ecl1214?

Eccl. 12:14 says, "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil." This is Old Testament, and the best thing possible to mankind under the Law. Under that, all men failed. Under Jesus' Last Will and Testament, the New Covenant went into effect at the death of the testator. The Old was then superceded by the Last Will and Testament stamped with the latest date. Christ took sin out of the way as an issue in salvation. Now it is "What think ye of Christ?" (Mt. 22:42). When we accept Him, all our old sins are wiped off the books. We are new creatures without sin, as pure virgins in the Lord's sight. When we slip and sin after that, we are to confess it to bring it under the blood of Christ also.

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Concern for Pets
For the individual posted in PC 389 who was concerned for his/her pets after the Rapture. Let me offer the following thought. There are several indications that Every Creature, not just humans and angels, will dwell in heaven. This includes the animals and the fish. And there is some indication that each of these creatures are intelligent and aware of God, his intent, and his works. These indications occur sporatically throughout the Bible from the first book to the last. Here are two examples.

(Gen 9:5 NIV) ... "I will demand an accounting FROM EVERY ANIMAL. And from each man, too, ...." Logic would suggest that animals could not properly be held accountable for their actions or lives unless they were somehow aware, even as we are.

(Rev 5:13 NIV) "Then I heard EVERY CREATURE in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!'" Again, if animals were not aware in some way of God, even as we are, how could they offer praise and honor to God? Note that these are in heaven shortly after the Rapture that occurs in chapter 4 and before the Tribulation and the Wrath.

Similar verses are a little less clear, but tend to convey the same idea.

Job 38:41 -- "Who provides food for the raven WHEN ITS YOUNG CRY OUT TO GOD and wander about for lack of food?"

Psalm 150:6 -- "Let EVERYTHING THAT HAS BREATH praise the LORD."

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 -- "the fate of the sons of men AND THE FATE OF BEASTS is the same.... they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place.... who can prove that the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward into the earth?

Iassh 43:20 -- THE WILD ANIMALS HONOR ME, the jackals and the owls, ...

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From: South Africa
...I believe that we all play an important role in the world and we are told to offer encouragement and to love all brothers and sisters in Christ and even offer more love to the lost. You have served our Lord in the way He has called you and there is no judgment form any person that is valid against what the Lord is doing in your life.

One of the things I believe that is happening with the work that you doing, is that there is a greater awareness being created about the reality of the end times. Jesus is coming again soon and the work you have been given is touching both the lost and even the complacent masses who carry the name of Christ.

I am a firm believer in the awesome love that God has shown through the ages and His immense fairness in His dealings with all mankind. We know His judgement is swift and powerful, but throughout the ages He has always given fair warning, even more warnings of His coming judgement than was required. As I said before I'm not really in favor of date setting, but do believe that your web site and the very realistic, biblical based probabilities that you have shared, for Jesus' return, have served well to warn many people.

Our Lord warns and warns, yet many scoff and fling abuse at anyone with the message and it will be a sad, wonderful, awesome, great day when He returns. No one will be able to offer any excuse, for His voice has traveled the world, yes through your work too, so I praise God for all He has laid on your heart.

I pray that you will be blessed in all the future work He calls you to, for it is blessing to know you will faithfully continue until Jesus returns.

I also pray that the Lord will keep you in good health and close to His heart, that you may be rewarded with the blessing of seeing Him return. Many blessings

My reply

Thanks. I am blessed by your kind words. I am committed to being faithful in the face of any obstacles and I know the Lord knows how to get his work done. I pray that he will lead me and direct my steps until he comes. Bless you

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While reading your P&C 389 someone mentioned the population of the world and Israel. You then added the population of Jerusalem. I wonder how long it would take for world population to reach six billion six hundred sixty million and Israel to reach six million six hundred sixty thousand and Jerusalem to reach six thousand six hundred sixty. There would then be three sets of three sixes. One for the world, Israel and Jerusalem.

Given the rate of growth it seems feasible for the population to increase a little over half a million people by ...umm. Next May?

Thank you for your work. I'm very happy your granddaughter is doing much better. Praise the Lord.

My reply

That's an interesting thought. I heard on TV last night that the world will reach 6 billion in early October, maybe by the 11th. If I had been sharp enough, I would have remembered how many they said are added each day, but that got by me.

I was watching a short time to get the news about the earthquake in Taiwan. That is of special interest to our son. He spent a month with my sister-in-law in the Orient, much of it in Taipei.

My brother was in the Air Force, stationed in Taiwan when he was killed in a helicopter crash. He had his family there. His wife studied Chinese and went back on many trips later on.

The increase of large earthquakes is a horrible reminder that we are living in the end times. Can you imagine the devastation when there will be a worldwide earthquake? All walls will fall.

People that think the invasion of the army under Gog is before the Tribulation must not read the rest of the chapter. To me, there is no way it can come before the Tribulation. It says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that MY FURY shall come up in my face (Day of God's Wrath, Rev. 6:17). For in my jealousy and in the fire of MY WRATH have I spoken...all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence (sight, as in Eze. 36:31; i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30), and the mountains (Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground" (Eze. 38:18-20)....

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John McDonnell (Mormon) wrote:
You have obviously not read enough of my interpretations to understand why I look for a Confrontation between Christ and those supposed to be doing His work on Earth. Malachi 3:1-5 and Luke 12:35-48 clearly predict a humbling before the presence of Christ when they are confronted with His dissatisfaction for some of the things they are now doing in His name. My studies have indicated that this Confrontation must take place before He destroys the wicked gathered against Him at Armageddon. Judgments begin at the house of God. Therefore, the destruction of the Armageddon gathering must be preceded by a cleansing of His church. This cleansed church will complete the preaching of His Gospel in all the world and prepare a place where those accepting it can be gathered for safety, Then the rest of the world will fight against each other in World War III, during which a third of mankind will be killed. After the war the powers of evil will organize their survivors to gather against Christ as He returns to reign for a thousand years. That is when the rapture takes place, after the dead in Christ are resurrected just prior to the beginning of His millennial reign. My warning to you was based on my understanding of scriptures. Your warning to me is based on yours. If you want someone whose scripture is the Bible alone to tell you that the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is a misreading of the Bible, try .

My reply

Mr. "notdeceived" is deceived himself. I advise you not to follow his teachings.

> My studies have indicated that this Confrontation must take place before
> He destroys the wicked gathered against Him at Armageddon.

I believe the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. That Feast of Trumpets is also the Day of God's Wrath poured out on unbelievers left on the Earth. Then there are 7 months between that day and the Second Advent. Armageddon is between Christ's army and Satan's. It cannot take place until Christ is on Earth with his saints.

> survivors to gather against Christ as He returns to reign for a thousand years.
> That is when the rapture takes place, after the dead in Christ are resurrected
> just prior to the beginning of His millennial reign.

There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. That group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9: "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8). Rev. 7:9,14 says, "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." These are in Heaven 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12).

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John McDonnell (Mormon) wrote:
Scriptural statements about the second coming of Christ are fragmentary and scattered. I believe the best point to gather the various statements around is the proclamation of two angels at the Ascension of Jesus Christ into Heaven: "... this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). There are three accounts of the ascension, Mark 16:19, Luke 24:51, and Acts 1:9. By reading these in context, we are able to piece together what happened just prior to, during, and just after the Ascension. This is important since "in like manner" would take related happenings into account. Therefore, our study of the Ascension must be expanded to Mark 16:14-20, Luke 24:33-53, and Acts 1:1-14, at least. There is no discrepancy between the "as far as to Bethany" of Luke 24:50 and "returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet" of Acts 1:12, since Bethany was on the eastern slope of the Mount of Olives.

There was a sequence of events leading up to the Ascension. There was a meeting in Jerusalem of church members including the eleven apostles at which Jesus appeared, rebuked them, ate a meal with them, and taught them. Then a portion of them, apparently the eleven apostles, were led by Jesus toward Bethany, apparently teaching them along the way. Then while the Ascension was happening, we have the statement by two angels that "in like manner" Jesus would return. Then those witnessing the Ascension returned to the gathering of church members in Jerusalem. Since certain phrases in translations are vague on details, it is good to read the accounts in several different translations, perhaps even looking at some of the Greek words involved.

Now obviously "in like manner" could not be a repeat of the sequence, but must be reversed in order to have Jesus returning. When we reverse the sequence, I get this result. Among Christian believers will be those expecting Christ's return. "And at midnight there was a cry made [I would guess by angels], Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him" (Matthew 25:6). Those able to quickly respond to this summons (Hebrews 9:28) will witness Jesus descending from a cloud. I would imagine that he will teach them. They would then carry their witness and tidings to larger groups of Christians, who would meet to discuss what is being claimed. Then confrontations would take place between Christ and those supposed to be doing his work on Earth (Malachi 3:1-5; Luke 12:35-48). The net result would be that the church would be cleansed and inspired to accomplish it final tasks before the thousand year reign of Christ begins.

I would also group Isaiah 52:10 with these events. "The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of God." I interpret "the eyes of the nations" as referring to those guided by the Holy Spirit, and who can thereby see the kingdom of God (see John 3:3).

My reply

> When we reverse the sequence, I get this result. Among Christian believers
> will be those expecting Christ's return. "And at midnight there was a cry
> made [I would guess by angels], Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to
> meet him" (Matthew 25:6).

The Parable of the Ten Virgins takes place at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Five are taken, five are left behind for chastisement. The five that are caught up represent the Bride of Christ.

> I would also group Isaiah 52:10 with these events. "The Lord hath made bare
> his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth
> shall see the salvation of God."

The "arm of the LORD" (Isa. 53:1; 52:10) is Christ. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Cor. 5:19). Jesus Christ "was wounded for OUR transgressions, he was bruised for OUR iniquities: the chastisement of OUR peace was upon him; and with his stripes WE are healed" (Isa. 53:5). Without him, we are on a slick slide right into hell.

We must accept Christ as our Saviour for Isa. 53:5 to apply to us. God is offering us a free gift of salvation, but we must accept it. I prayed and asked him to be my Saviour. Have you? When we do that, we are saved and all our sins are forgiven. At that moment, we are counted as pure virgins in God's sight. At that moment, our eternal destiny is Heaven instead of Hell.

> I interpret "the eyes of the nations" as referring to those guided by the
> Holy Spirit, and who can thereby see the kingdom of God (see John 3:3).

Isa. 52:15 says, "So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall THEY SEE; and that which they had not heard shall they consider."

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Are you saying that the rapture has already taken place in 1997/98, and how do you arrive at the year 2007?

My reply

No, the Rapture has not yet taken place. I thought it would be on Pentecost, 1998, but it wasn't. However, the reasons why I thought it was then have not changed. That year was marked for some good reason. It seems to be because the 4 years of the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9 began then. I call those Israel's grace years. If she would only turn to the Lord and show ripe fruit, the Tribulation would not have to happen. It is Israel's fifth cycle of discipline. Lev. 26:27,28 says, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (i.e., years) for your sins."

In the parable of the barren fig tree, Christ comes and SPEAKS in the third year ONLY. At that time, he says, "Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down." He neither comes nor speaks in the extra year. Maybe he looked for fruit in 1998, looked in 1999, and the Rapture will be on Pentecost, 2000. We don't have too long to wait to see. In the meantime, we should see what treasures we can send ahead to be waiting for us in Heaven.

If Jesus has been looking at us these two years, what do you think he is looking for? There is a good chance that he is selecting his Bride. The wise virgins of Mt. 25 are READY, have plenty of the oil of the Holy Spirit, to go with the Bridegroom in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The foolish virgins are not included in that group. They are left behind like the Laodiceans to be chastized. This doesn't mean they are lost. It means that they have to endure the trial that will come upon all the world, 2300 days (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation. They will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

The Philadelphians are the ones that have the "OPEN DOOR" set before them (Rev. 3:8). They are the ones that are to be kept "FROM" the trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3:10). They are the ones that Jesus does not tell to repent. They already have. With the Laodiceans, it is different. They are told "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and REPENT" (Rev. 3:19). (See I John 1:9.)

They do repent and confess their sins after the Pre-Trib Rapture. They are part of the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations" that come "out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:9,14,15) on the 2300th day of the Tribulation.

> how do you arrive at the year 2007?

Look at Mt. 24:32-34, where Jesus answered the question asked him in verse 3: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?"

He answered them with the parable of the fig tree. He said, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Eze. 36:8; Jer. 24:5,6); When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting; i.e., modern Israel grafted into her old root stock) is yet tender (apalos, young; no more than 19, as when they came out of Egypt), and PUTTETH FORTH LEAVES (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and the West Bank, in the Six-Day War of 1967), ye know that summer is nigh (they took the rest of Jerusalem June 7 and summer began June 21): So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (Israel back in the land, growing leaves when she was 19 years old, summer being nigh), know that it (the Rapture) is near, even at the doors (symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8). Verily I say unto you, This generation (born in 1967) shall not pass, till all these things (given previously in Mt. 24) be fulfilled."

The year 1967 plus one 40-year generation is 2007. We know that a generation is 40 years from Mt. 23:36. In 30 AD, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." They did, in 70 AD.

According to Daniel 9:27, the False Prophet "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." This is when he sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). This covenant is a seven-year peace covenant.

The Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. They were ratified in Israel three days later, on the Jewish Tishri 1, 5754. I think there are to be seven good years and seven bad years at the end of this age, as when Joseph was in Egypt, and that these 14 years began when the Oslo Accords were signed.

Sept. 13, 1993 + 14 years = Sept. 13, 2007.
Tishri 1, 5754 + 14 years = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007.
That sounds just like something God would arrange. I think the Rapture will be in the good years. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5761 (our Sept. 30, 2000). I think Pentecost, in 2000 (Sivan 7 is June 10) is the date to watch.

Tishri 1, 5761 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5768 (our Sept, 13, 2007). I expect the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14, (the shortened Tribulation) to begin on the Feast of Weeks in 5761 (May 28, 2001) and to end on the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007).

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