Pro and Con 394

Uploaded 9-27-99

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I believe that The Church is out of here at Rev. 4:1. Some of my Bible study friends still are determined that The Church go through half or most of the Tribulation. I've quoted 1st Thes. and 1st Cor., still no change in their thinking. Is the key to the confusion that most people can't differentiate The Church and Isreal as referenced in Revelation, or what?  What am I missing or am I wrong? Thank you for your help.

My reply

I also "believe that The Church is out of here at Rev. 4:1." I don't see how the group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 could be caught up Mid-Trib for the simple reason that they are in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. That first seal is the beginning of the Tribulation.

There is much confusion between I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51,52. The former is the first "trump of God," the Pre-Trib Rapture. The latter is the "last trump" of God to call the saints to Heaven, the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The first group is in Heaven before the first seal is broken. The last group are in Heaven (Rev. 7:14) between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8).

Mark 13:27 says, "And then (on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the Church saints that were caught up before the Tribulation). All are called to the assembly on that day to stand before the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, AND TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

When the False Prophet "shall come to his end," (Dan. 11:45) be deposed on this Day of God's Wrath, "at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (the Day of Jacob's Trouble, the 2300th day of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:14) thy people (Israelites) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Dan. 12:1,2). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. As soon as these saints are gathered in Heaven the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place. There will be rewards for the saints in Heaven and Wrath for the unbelievers left on Earth.

Incoming Email

God bless you in the name of Jesus Christ.

Really really really enjoyed your reply. I tend to agree with you on your time tables although I had not set a year for the rapture - I do believe that it will most likely fall on the feast of trumpets, too - and I have to admit, I was sorely disappointed that it didn't fall on it this year as the 11th of August solar eclipse mimicked the eclipse of the crucifixion almost to a T and was exactly 2000 Jewish lunar years from the day of it (April 28, 28 AD - Aug. 11, 1999). That and the 11th of Sept being Christ's birth date - oh well, I am joyfully anticipating His return, living repentantly and have been for several years since He showed me how very very far off we all are from where we were supposed to be, had the RC church not crept in and virtually destroyed true Christianity in the 3rd century. Because of that, we have had to wait until now - the final outpouring of Holy Spirit - to begin to come back to the truth - and sadly enough, most of our churches are nothing more than pits of idolatrous unbelief and powerless pseudo-Christian witchcraft with the pastors becoming brutish and manipulating and controlling "their" flock - not allowing the Holy Spirit to actually lead in the church...sigh...but obviously there are those who are still hearkening to that still small voice, Praise the Lord!

The book that I am reading doesn't deal so much with the build up of end time events and what's when and so forth as it does the salvation of the soul as opposed to the salvation of the spirit. The latter being done for us by Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8) and the former being our responsibility by works and renewing of our minds - it's the one Paul was talking about in Phil. 3:11 - the word for resurrection there should read "out-resurrection" meaning taken out of the body of Christ just as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam. At the time Paul wrote this epistle, he didn't yet know whether or not he would make it into the millennial reign with Jesus. This is the salvation that Gary Whipple, in his book, is revealing - and the one that the majority of Christianity, unfortunately, has their head in the sand about, thanks in a big part to the fake movement of the grace gospel that allows people to reject II Cor. 7:1 and live like hell between Sundays. No one wants to believe that God meant Rev. 21:8 when He said, among other adjectives, "all liars shall have their PART in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone". After all, we live in a culture that teaches us to lie from the time we are born. But God's word remains - anyway, that's what the "Shock and Surprise" in the title of the book is about - that so many will be "wailing and gnashing" their teeth when they find out just what is in those books that will be opened before the judgment seat of Christ - every single idle word spoken that was not repented of - every single evil thought (Heb 4:12) that was not repented of, and every single work done or not done that was not repented of - all taken down by the scribe angel that accompanies us everywhere we go - Ecc. 5:6.

Meanwhile, it's a great book - very inspiring at the least! But come to think of it, I don't think it can be ordered anywhere anymore except through the author so in case you are interested, here's his address. I think it runs about $12.00 - the copy I have isn't mine - I'm borrowing it.
Schoettle Publishing Co., Inc.
PO Box 1246
Hayesville, NC 28904

Shock and Surprise Beyond the Rapture! by Gary T. Whipple Th.M.
ISBN: 1-56453-086-8

I think he's currently a pastor in Orlando, FL.

Anyway, thank you for writing back to me. His

My reply

There are two Raptures. I think the Pre-Trib Rapture may be next Pentecost, Sivan 7, 5760 (June 10, 2000). Spring fits Song of Sol. 2:10-14. The time of firstripe grapes is late May or early June. That is when the spies were sent in to spy out the promised land (Nu. 13:20). It looks like we are to visit our habitation too (Job. 5:24). The Pre-Wrath Rapture will probably be on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), 14 years, 7 good and 7 bad, from the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993. It is amazing that they were ratified in Israel three days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept, 13, 2007. Isn't that just like something that God would arrange?

(1) Pre-Trib Rapture--as the days of Noah--no fire falls

In Rev. 4:1. A "door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET (the first trump) TALKING with me; which said, "Come up hither." This is "the trump of God" and the "shout" in I Thess. 4:16. After these are heard, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v. 17).

These are the ones present in Heaven in Rev. 5:9: "thou...hast redeemed us to God by thy blood OUT OF EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION." These saints, that are made "kings and priests" to reign over the Earth, are in Heaven BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL IS BROKEN in Rev. 6 to kick off the Tribulation.

They are the Philadelphians. They are not told to repent. They already have. Only to the Philadelphians does Jesus say, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I COME QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev. 3:10).

(2) Pre-Wrath Rapture--as the days of Lot, when fire falls that same day

There is a second Rapture, for the Tribulation saints. They are called up at the "last trump" of God (I Cor. 15:51,52). AFTER THE SIXTH SEAL IS BROKEN in Rev. 6:12 AND BEFORE THE SEVENTH SEAL IS BROKEN in Rev. 8, "a great multitude, which no man could number, OF ALL NATIONS, AND KINDREDS, AND PEOPLE, AND TONGUES" (Rev. 7:9) are seen before the throne in Heaven. "These are they which CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:14,15).

When the sixth seal is broken, "the great day of his wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17). The Tribulation saints are caught up before the asteroid pieces of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23; Psa. 91:6). The seventh seal brings the seven trumpet judgments on the unbelievers left behind.

These Tribulation saints include the Laodiceans, the second rank to be caught up. Jesus tells them, "As many as I love, I rebuke and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and REPENT" (Rev. 3:19).

Modern Parallels

God singled out six blocks of years, totaled them up and saw to it that they were listed in Scripture to mark the years of the most important events of our time. Each block is in the four hundreds, and there are no others, except for the 434 that is added to 49 to make the 483 years in Daniel 9.

(1) 400 from the casting out of Ishmael to the Exodus (Gen. 15:13; Acts 7:6,7)
(2) 430 from Abram's call to the Exodus (Ex. 12:40,41; Gal. 3:17,18)
(3) 450 from the division of Canaan to king Saul, the period of the judges (Acts 13:19,20)
(4) 480 Theocratic Years from the Exodus to the time construction began on the temple (excluding the servitudes when Israel was out of fellowship) (I Kings 6:1)
(5) 483 from the time the commandment was given to rebuild Jerusalem to just before the Crucifixion (Dan. 9:25,26)
(6) 490 Theocratic Years from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the Second Advent (excluding the church era, when Israel is out of fellowship, in the gap between the 69th and 70th week of years) (Dan. 9:24).

The same year the Ottomans took Jerusalem, Martin Luther tacked his ninety-five theses to the church door in Wittenberg, Germany. That was 5278, our Oct. 31, 1517, the beginning of the Protestant Reformation. When the blocks of years that are in the 400's are added to 5278, it seems to mark an important event of this century. 5678, 5708, 5728, 5758, 5761, and 5768.

Do important things happen in these years? Yes! the list is impressive. It is exciting to find that God has arranged this for us to find in the time of the end. Here is the way they look to me:

(1) 5278+400=5678 (1917/18) Modern exodus began
(2) 5278+430=5708 (1947/48) Israel declared Independence
(3) 5278+450=5728 (1967/68) Six-Day War, Sign of End of the Age, had been won
(4) 5278+480=5758 (1997/98) 6000th year of man's test as mortal/knowing good & evil
(5) 5278+483=5761 (2000/01) Tribulation begins on the Feast of Weeks
(6) 5278+490=5768 (2007/08) Day of God's Wrath-first day of Civil Year, Second Advent-first day of Regnal Year

No man could have planned this. Only God, who had his complete timetable in mind, could have known how to draw these parallels. Truly, Scripture is God breathed.

One of the modern parallels

In the 480th Theocratic Year after the children of Israel were come out of Egypt in the last age, Solomon, the son of David, began to build the first temple.

The parallel in our days may be that in the 480th year, our 1997/1998, Jesus Christ, the son of David, came looking, just as in the first year of the parable in Lu. 13:6-9, and selecting the stones of the spiritual temple (Eph. 2:21), the Bride of Christ. Before Lot was brought out of Sodom, the Lord went looking to see if there were any righteous. He said, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know" (Gen. 18:21). According the the parable of the barren fig tree, it seems that the Lord comes looking for the righteous before the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place too.

The temple was begun in Solomon's 4th year and was finished 7 years later, in Solomon's 11th year (I Ki. 6:1,37,38). It makes me wonder if we have a similar scenario concerning the spiritual temple now. If the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place in 2000 and the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place in 2007, that could be counted the same as the 7 years it took to build Solomon's temple.
Solomon's 7 years: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 (4 + 7 = 11)
Our 7 years: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007 (2000 + 7 = 2007)

The first Rapture is as the days of Noah. The second Rapture is as the days of Lot. Fire falls that same day (Lu. 17:29), just as the Wrath of God falls the same day as the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

At Sinai, "the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud...Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and LET THEM WASH THEIR CLOTHES, And BE READY against THE THIRD DAY: FOR THE THIRD DAY THE LORD WILL COME DOWN..." (Ex. 19:9-11).

In the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9, Jesus comes and speaks in the 3rd year. He only came LOOKING in the first two years. He doesn't come or speak in the fourth year. If the first year was 5758, the second 5759, the third would be 5760 (our 1999/2000). This might be the year of the Rapture.

The Oslo Accord was signed Sept. 13, 1993. Wye 2 was signed Sept. 13, 1999. The final status Peace Agreement is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. From Sept. 13, 2000 to the Day of God's Wrath on Sept. 13, 2007 is 7 years, the 7 bad years. The Pre-Trib Rapture should come in the 7 good years before the Tribulation, which I think will start on the Feast of Weeks in 2001. We should be gone before that. Everything seems to be falling into place. The Peace Covenant, the Pope's meeting to bring together other religions, etc. Hope we are raptured by June 10, 2000 (Sivan 7, Pentecost). World conditions seem ripe for it.

What do you think of these possibilities?

> the crucifixion ...April 28, 28 AD

I think the Crucifixion was in 30 AD, 40 years from the destruction of 70 AD. In Eze. 4:6, Ezekiel was to bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty years.

> Phil. 3:11 - the word for resurrection there should read "out-resurrection" meaning
> taken out of the body of Christ just as Eve was taken out of the body of Adam.

I think that like Eve, the Bride of Christ will also be taken out of the Body of Christ. The Pre-Trib Rapture seems to be for the Bride, the Pre-Wrath for the remainder of the Body.

> so many will be "wailing and gnashing" their teeth

When the first Rapture takes place, Lu. 12:46 will be fulfilled. It says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" (in the Tribulation). Mt. 24:51 adds, "appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

My chronology of upcoming events:
http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/endtime_chron.html

My file on the Modern Parallels:
http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/parallels.html

Incoming Email

John McDonnell (Mormon) wrote: Re: the exact date of the second advent?

You are an interesting thinker and writer, but surely someone who is convinced that I am "off" from true Christianity should not be predicting the month and the day of the second advent. Almost with one voice Christians who are thought to be true Christians have recited "no man knoweth the day or the hour" as proof against what your latest Millennial Information Exchange posting is saying. How strange that someone you suggested is not a real Christian should have to remind you of the words of Jesus which the great majority of Christians-you-do-consider-as- Christians recite to refute all attempts to set a date! In fairness you have not given a year, but only a month and day. But still, if someone believed what you wrote, each year as the date approached one would be getting worked up either to be raptured away or see Christ returning in the clouds of heaven. We mortals all make mistakes, and if we are Christians, we should be willing to forgive mistakes. Don't you think you got a little carried away with this month and day of the second advent theory? Even if you are somehow right about the month and day (and I myself am wanting the Lord to return very soon), I think you goofed by publicly stating your theory, especially since the words of Jesus are usually taken as discouraging such speculations.

My reply

> should not be predicting the month and the day of the second advent.

I am not predicting anything. I am not a prophet. I say that this is the way it looks to me. However, the Jewish month and day of the month of the Second Advent is in the Bible. I can show you step by step.

De. 11:14: "I will give you the rain of your land (Israel) in HIS DUE SEASON." This is the due season of "his redeemer the Lord (YHVH) of hosts" (i.e., the Lord Jesus Christ, THE Son of God, the only one of his kind) Isa. 44:6.

Lev. 26:3,4: "If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; Then I will give you rain in DUE SEASON."

Hos. 6:3: "the LORD (YHVH): his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE (YHVH of hosts, the Lord Jesus Christ) SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH."

Joel 2:23: "the LORD (YHVH) your God: for he hath given you the FORMER RAIN moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, THE FORMER RAIN, AND THE LATTER RAIN IN THE FIRST MONTH."

Throughout the Bible, when no day number is given, we are to assume the first day of the month, because the same word means month and new moon. The first day of the month is the new moon. Both the Former Rain (First Advent of Christ) and the Latter Rain (Second Advent of Christ) are on the first day of the month. The Former Rain starts Tishri 1. The Latter Rain starts Nisan 1. Both are first months, Tishri of the Civil Year, Nisan of both the Regnal and Sacred Year.

I believe the First Advent was on the first day of the Civil Year (the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1) and the Second Advent will be on the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Nisan 1). He comes on the first day of the Regnal Year as King of kings and the first day of the Sacred Year as Lord of lords. He will return as King on the same day all the other Israelite kings officially took office.

Ezek. 29:17:21 tells us more plainly. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1, Eze. 45:18,21)...In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king, Rev. 17:12) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Word, Logos) in the midst of them (Israel); and they shall KNOW that I am the LORD (YHVH)."

> Almost with one voice Christians who are thought to be true Christians
> have recited "no man knoweth the day or the hour" as proof against
> what your latest Millennial Information Exchange posting is saying.

Look at what you copied--"knoweth." That word is present tense. On that day, no one knew the day or hour. Eze. 29:17,21 told the Jewish month and day of the month of the Second Advent, but no one recognized it at that time. The Rapture had not yet been taught plainly. It was a mystery until Paul was given revelation on it by the Lord himself. Paul was taught of the Lord both on Earth and in the third heaven (II Cor. 12:1-7).

I have been studying the Bible as deep as I can go since before 1960. For the first 7 years, I read man's books about the Bible from BIOLA's library. I could not find answers to some of my questions. In exasperation, I opened my Bible, put my hands on it and said, "Lord! you'll have to show me. I want to know all the deep things, everything you want man to know about the Bible--everything." I learned so fast the next 7 years, I felt like I had a tiger by the tail and could barely keep up.

One night, the Lord woke me up. I was absolutely terrified. My heart was beating like a little bird trying to get out of my chest. I heard a masculine voice say, "Be still and know that I am God." Instantly, my heart quieted. I was still until daylight, but nothing else happened. It was about 20 years before I had any idea what really took place that night. I was reading the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament used in Jesus' day. Job 33:15 says, "when the Lord speaks once, or a second time, sending a dream, or in the meditation of the night; (as when a dreadful alarm happens to fall upon men, in slumberings on the bed:) then opens he the understanding of men."

Later, I was typing all day, and so tired. I grabbed my closed Bible by the heel and threw myself across the bed saying to myself, "What am I doing all this work for? It'll probably never be published anyway." At that moment I was face down looking at my open Bible. There was a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It was twilight. The lined draperies were closed. I didn't turn on a light. The rest of the pages looked gray. It said, "Declare ye among the nations, and publish, and set up a standard: publish, and conceal not."

In awe, I said, "OK, I will continue to study and write, but you will have to help with the publishing. I don't know anything about that." He did help with the publishing. Avon Books called me. I did not call them. They saw a tiny ad with a picture of my first book and 25 words about it, and called me. They have published all three of my books.

I must do what I think the Lord wants me to do.

> Don't you think you got a little carried away with this month
> and day of the second advent theory?

No! it is there in Scripture for all to see.

> I think you goofed by publicly stating your theory, especially since the words of
> Jesus are usually taken as discouraging such speculations.

I think I have to publically state what I see in Scripture, without holding back. It makes no difference what someone else has said. You are free to make up your own mind on this. We were put on this Earth to make up our minds what we think about Christ too. This life is a test. Mt. 22:42 says, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?" Our eternal destiny rides on our answer to these questions.

We are facing the terrible end of this age, when civilization as we know it will be destroyed. Every wall will fall--worldwide (Eze. 38:20). Time is short. We need to get right with God right away.

Incoming Email

> Read you Pro and Con #392 and the question was asked about world
> population. Try this site and check December of 2006.
> http://metalab.unc.edu/lunarbin/worldpop

My reply

Thanks. I tried. My old equipment can't handle that site. It won't load the applet. It hangs up. Will the world pop. have three 6s in it in Dec., 2006?

Incoming Email

Don't worry about the date, you done good. What you have done is put the fear of the Lord into people. (Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.) As a result I am ready to go anytime.

The oil is the knowledge of the Spirit of God of how to enter the Kingdom of God. It is the narrow gate. It is obtained by writing the Word of the Lord into your heart and seeking God with all your heart. Those Christians who never had time to get around to Bible study will not have time when the trumpets sounds to get this knowledge from the wise, for it spiritually discerned like all scripture.

The tribulation was designed by God to provide the motivation of getting to know Him. Those who watch do so initially because of fear, then anticipation as they begin to know and love the Lord and hate the world.

My advice at this late hour is for all to get their Bibles, and pray their most fervent prayer that the Lord will have mercy and give them a crash course. Is anything to hard for the Lord.

My reply

The fall feasts are not the ones for the Pre-Trib Rapture in my book because Tishri is a rainy month. Nisan is a rainy month too. I am looking forward to next Pentecost. It is in the spring after the rain is over and gone (Song of Sol. 2:10-14).

Do you think the oil for consecrating the priests stood for knowledge? I think they were given the Holy Spirit.

I think the thing of paramount importance to Christians today is to repent and confess their sins. Look how many times Jesus told the churches to repent in Rev. 2 and 3. Those messages are to the church when the Rapture is "at hand" (1:3: 22:10).

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Updated 9-27-99