Pro and Con 395

Uploaded 9-28-99

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Our blessed sister Marylin, We enjoy your site. I print and keep all the ProCons. There is an ocean of wealth in it. I do enjoy them, and am looking forward to that day (or night?) when He comes - and tread the streets of gold....

1. Have you visited ? What say you?
2. ...See if you can get for me from that sender the address or contact of Gary Whipple. I have read a translation of the subject book. I wish to contact him to clear certain information. Bless you

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Here is the information on the book, snipped from my incoming email:

I don't think it can be ordered anywhere anymore except through the author so in case you are interested, here's his address. I think it runs about $12.00
Schoettle Publishing Co., Inc.
PO Box 1246
Hayesville, NC 28904

Shock and Surprise Beyond the Rapture! by Gary T. Whipple Th.M.
ISBN: 1-56453-086-8

I think he's currently a pastor in Orlando, FL.
...I would appreciate your opinion of it too.

I will quote from the web site you mentioned and intersperse my comments.

William D. Brehm said,
Any real student of Bible History knows that all of the first 11 chapters can be understood to have been fulfilled by 70 AD. Only Daniel 12 is clearly about the Second Coming, because it mentions the Resurrection of the Saints and the Great Tribulation....

***From Marilyn: I disagree. Dan. 2:28 says, "But there is a god in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be IN THE LATTER DAYS." He is missing a lot by not consulting all of Daniel. Revelation helps us understand Daniel. Daniel adds details to what we find in Revelation.

...the Book of Revelation shows that the Tribulation will be divided into three distinct periods that are called "woes". (See Revelation 8:13, 9:12 and 11:14.) These periods each represent a different outpouring of God's wrath....

***I disagree with his three divisions. The Day of God's wrath does not come until the sixth seal has been broken. It is broken on the last day of this age in Rev. 6:12. The chapter ends with, "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" As I understand it, the day that starts at 6:00 PM is the first day of the Millennium, The Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14).

The entire Church will go into the Tribulation. The Christians who are ready will be divinely protected. (See Revelation 7:1-8 and compare with Ezekiel 9.)...

***There is a group out of all nations seen in heaven in Rev. 5:9 that he is ignoring. They are in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6.

The Two Beasts of the Revelation (chapter 13) will not become recognizable for who they are until the Tribulation is well underway. The same is true of the Two Witnesses.

***The two beasts can be recognized when they confirm the peace covenant. That happens as the Tribulation/Seventieth Week of Daniel begins. The two witnesses have to prophesy the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. The last part is shortened to 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040). The first 1260 days begin the same day the peace covenant is confirmed.

..."Mystery Babylon" though, may be visible now. It appears to be Islam! (Compare Zechariah 5:5-11 [note that Shinar is the land of Babylon] with Revelation 17:1-5.) The Beast will rule a revived Babylonian Empire, dominated by turn Islam. They will turn against Islam and destroy Mecca near the end of the Tribulation.

***I think Mystery Babylon is the World Church. It seems to be all religions under the leadership of the Tribulation Pope, the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10.

>...The actual Second Coming of Christ, the Resurrection of the Saints, the Rapture, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, all happen at the end of the Tribulation...

***I think the first trump calls up the Bride of Christ before the first seal is broken and the "last trump" calls up the Tribulation saints between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. Christ waits 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath before he returns on the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Eze. 39:12; 29:17,21).

If the events described in Revelation 8:7-9:2 are viewed as different aspects of the same event, rather than a series of events, they form a detailed and accurate description of a kind of disaster that the public has generally known about for less than 20 years. An asteroid or comet collision, the impact occurring in one of the oceans! The description of "something like a great mountain burning with fire" in Revelation 8:8 is the most accurate and vivid description of the event that a person ignorant of the subject could give. The repeated references to "one third" in the passage are telling us that the collision will devastate one third of the earth's surface. This will include killing one third of the human race. The most probable site of impact would be somewhere in the northern Pacific Ocean....

***I think the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 will strike the Mediterranean Sea. Zeph. 2:4,5 says, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of THE SEA COAST."

The same pattern of different aspects of the same event being described as a series of events is also found in Revelation 16. Contrary to what some have taught, these are not the same events as those in Revelation 8.

***I think the trumpet judgments of Rev. 8 are all cast on Earth one day. The vials, "in them is filled up the wrath of God" (Rev. 15:1). The trumpet judgments are immediate. The vials show the ultimate effect over a longer time. At first,the third part of "THE SEA" became blood" (Rev. 8:8). Later, the sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" (Rev. 16:3).

Remember, there are three "woes". The first begins with the asteroid collision and lasts five months. The second "woe" lasts more than 3 1/2 years, covering the entire ministry of the Two Witnesses. The events of chapter 16 are the first part of the third "woe". The source of the catastrophe is again revealed in verse 8. The sun scorches men with heat. Everything else in the chapter, as far as physical events, is the result of this. Isaiah 30:26 speaks of the light of the sun being sevenfold. This is an event called a "helium flash", a low-power "nova" event (not a supernova!). It will produce a literal hell-on-earth situation for a few weeks to a few months. This, materially, will be the worst part of the Tribulation. So you should realize that we have something to be afraid of....

***The trumpet judgments all hit in one day. It is the DAY of God's Wrath, not a long drawn out period of time. The effects of it last longer though. There are two large pieces of the asteroid that impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). It is probably a binary like Toutatis. It is the primary cause of all the destruction.

***We (Christians) do not need to fear this. By the time it hits at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5), both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures will have taken place.

In Revelation 3:18; Buying "gold tried in fire" is committing ourselves to regular times of prayer and fasting. The fasting, or doing something equivalent, is not an option, as has been mistakenly taught. Buying "white garments" means not only really repenting of our sins, but being overtly righteous, especially in the sense of really being separate from the world. It also means renunciation of anything that needlessly causes division in the Church....

Really doing all this, to the extent that the Lord meant, will not be easy. We must be truly diligent about all of this. We must become so committed to Christ, so overtly righteous, that we will be called legalists if we preach what we practice....

***Paul told the Galatians, "O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you...Are ye so FOOLISH? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1,3).

***I think gold stands for deity, i.e., for the Holy Spirit. White garments are obtained by confessing all known sins since we accepted Christ so the Lord can cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

***If we renounced "ANYTHING that needlessly causes division in the Church," we might throw out things until we had a DANGEROUSLY watered down version of Christianity. II Tim. 3:16,17 says, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." However, "the servant of the Lord must not strive (machomai, to war, quarrel, dispute, fight, strive); but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (II Tim. 2:24,25). Jude 3 says, "it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for (epagonizomai, to struggle for, earnestly contend for) the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

***We must tell it like it is, but gently. Remember how Christ taught. He didn't leave anything out, but he spoke matter-of-factly, telling it like it is without hostility.

***Shalom and Agape

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From Jim Bramlett

...The 2,000th birthday of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel and the world, will mark the end of the "second (millennial) day" since His birth and the beginning of "the third day." A strong case can be made that this is that time referred to by Hosea 6:2 because neither a literal 24-hour day nor a millennial day definition has ever been fulfilled before. The verse says, "After two days He will revive us; On the THIRD DAY he will raise us up, That we may live in his sight,"(NKJV).

***From Marilyn: It looks like Hosea 6:2 may have a double fulfillment. Israel was raised up after the third millennium had begun since their captivity. That was the first fulfillment. Also, we may be raised up on the third year of the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9.

A friend called the other day and reminded me of the many references to the "THIRD DAY" in Scripture and how they sound like the resurrection/rapture. I did not do an exhaustive study, but here are a few. Check the wording for yourself (emphasis supplied):

1. No need to remind you that Jesus was resurrected on the THIRD DAY (Matthew 20:19, etc.). "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

2. Exodus 19:11. (Moses)"Let them be ready for the THIRD DAY. For on the THIRD DAY the LORD will COME DOWN on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people."

3. 2 Kings 20:5. "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; surely I will heal you. On the THIRD DAY you shall GO UP to the house of the LORD."

4. Ezra 6:15. "Now the TEMPLE was finished on the THIRD DAY ..." (WE are now the temple, a temple near completion at the end of the Gentile Age).

5. Esther 5:1. "Now it happened on the THIRD DAY that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace..." (Wow, what symbolism!).

6. John 2:1. "On the THIRD DAY there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee."

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There are some Bible prophecy scholars who believe that a Russian invasion (or attempted invasion) of Israel occurs before the 70th week of Daniel or the 7th year of the Tribulation. It seems very interesting, possibly even prophetic, that this conflict has now given Russia a valid political reason to amass a large amount of troops in Southern Russia. These troops are supposed to deal with the Arab rebels, but that enire incident could have been either staged or allowed to continue so that the Russians would be able to setup for it's first attack or attempted invasion of Israel. This attack could come with a simultaneous attack against the U.S.A., which has been found by some (Author Rick Wiles) in the Bible Codes to occur on 9/11/99. Please comment on this and Reply.

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I hear this repeatedly and can't see why people think the worldwide earthquake when every wall will fall could possibly happen before the Tribulation. Read Eze. 38:18-20. That takes place on the Day of God's Wrath. We are not appointed to wrath, neither are the Tribulation saints. Even they will be taken out of here just prior to God's Wrath on unbelievers.

When the asteroid of Rev. 8:8 hits the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5), even "the fishes of the sea...and all the men that are upon the face of the earth" shall shake (Ezek. 38:20). This comes because the united nations army headed up by Gog attacks Israel. That brings God's fury up in his face (Eze. 38:18,19). The Lord will fight for Israel that day.

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Marilyn, I thought you would want to see this reference to you. It LOOKS LIKE a toss-up here between Passover and Tabernacles for The Rapture. But I know you can figure it all out with your faithful tenacity. Maybe this can help you do a MORE definitive work on The Rapture Date. You certainly have your job cut out for you! But I know you can do it! Love

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From: Watcher: Rapture on Pentecost ?...

From Marilyn Agee's website:

Some Christians expect the Rapture before the Tribulation. Others expect it at the end of the Tribulation just before the Wrath of God is poured out. The reason, as I see it after over 36 years of intense Bible study, is because there actually will be two Raptures. The first one is the Rapture of the Church, the second of the Tribulation saints.

This theory posits two raptures, rather than examining the possibility that prophecy points to ONE RAPTURE in two phases -- the resurrection of the dead occurs first, then at some later time the remaining faithful are "changed" and meet those resurrected ALREADY IN THE AIR.

***From Marilyn: THE FIRST TRUMP
In I Thess. 4:16, the first "trump of God" calls both the dead in Christ and then the living in Christ up to meet the Lord in the air. These are the ones "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36). They are the ones " God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) seen around the throne in Heaven before the very first seal is broken in Rev. 6. They are in Heaven before the Tribulation begins, and they don't hang around in the air for several years. They arrive in Heaven itself before the Tribulation is underway. A "door was openin in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1). Here we have a voice and a trumpet, as in I Thess. 4:16. This Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire falls this day.

We see the Tribulation saints called up to Heaven "at the last trump" (I Cor. 15:52). These are those that were not "accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36) before the Tribulation took place. These are the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev. 7:9) that stand before the throne in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8). "These are they which came out of great tribulation (lit., tribulation, the great), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:14,15). These didn't make it the first time, and the only reason they made it the second time is because they finally confessed their sins and got right with God. This Rapture is as the days of Lot. The "same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Lu. 17:29,30). This is the Day of God's Wrath, the day when the Sign of the Son of Man is seen (Mt. 24:30) when the heavens are rolled aside like a scroll (Rev. 6:14), when men say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB: For the GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:16,17).

Agee's remarkable website examines Israel's feast day of Pentecost as a prophetic type to be fulfilled by the rapture. However, we at watcher believe Israel's Feast of Tabernacles is the obvious allusion to the rapture of the faithful, both dead and remaining.

The Feast of Tabernacles reminds the believer in Christ that his earthly physical body is only a temporary tabernacle.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle is taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in heaven. For indeed in this we groan, greatly desiring to be clothed with our dwelling place out of heaven. (2 Corinthians 5:1)

***"Skenous" means dwelling place, tabernacle. It is not talking about the Feast. Our earthly dwelling place is in our earthly body. Our heavenly dwelling place is in our celestial body. "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:44). "There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial" (I Cor. 15:40).

The book of Job, the oldest book in the Bible also describes the change over to immortality, as Job himself declares a physical resurrection:

For I know that my redeemer is living, and He shall rise on the earth at last and even after they shall corrupt my skin, yet this: In my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not a stranger's: though my reins be exhausted in my bosom.

***What that passage in Job has to do with proving the Rapture is on the Feast of Tabernacles, I don't know. Lev. 23:39 says, "in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered (past tense) in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD." By the time the Feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled, both Raptures are past, the first trump of God on the Feast of Pentecost, the last trump of God on the Feast of Trumpets, before the seven trumpets sounded by angels release God's fury on the unbelievers left on Earth.

As Jesus was changed at the Transfiguration, so we all will one day change-over to immortality, (I Thess. 4:15-18). This feast day of the seventh month will be fulfilled at the rapture and the glorification of the saints of all the ages....

The typical view of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is Non-Biblical

***My view is entirely Biblical. Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."

* Mistaken Notions about Pre-Tribulation Rapture

* Satan wants us to think the "Gog Battle" is Armageddon...

***The "Gog Battle" is not Armageddon. The former is why God's fury comes up in his face on the Day of God's Wrath. There are yet 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12). Armageddon is between Christ's forces and Satan's forces. Therefore it is after Christ is on Earth.

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Re: Check out

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From: watcher

The Prophetic Significance of Tabernacles...

According to the description of Rev 11, the two witnesses will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 days after they are killed at the tribulation mid-point. All of the saints, including the Revelation witnesses, will rise 3 and 1/2 days after the midpoint of Daniel's 70th Week.

***From Marilyn: God's two witnesses are called up to Heaven then, but no one else is. Rev. 11:10 says, "these two prophets."

***The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. When the False Prophet "shall come to his end" (be deposed from office) (Dan. 11:45), "at that time (the Day of God's Wrath) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and at that time (Day of Jacob's Trouble) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Dan. 12:1,2).

Rejoice Those Tabernacling in Heaven...Woe to the Earth

2 Thessalonians 2:3 says that the resurrection of the saints cannot happen until two events occur.
* The first event is called the apostasy or "falling away". This term describes how many Christians suddenly will turn from their faith in Jesus, and be caught in Satan's end time lie. This falling away is the result of the "End Time Deception". This Great Lie of the End Times is dealt with in the rest of our website.
* The second event is the "revealing of The Man of Sin". Paul describes how the man of sin is revealed in the very next sentence, "He will go in to the Temple of God, and display himself as God". This is the abomination of desolation, which does not occur until the mid-point of the tribulation. The rapture does not occur until after this "revealing"...this point alone should show why there cannot be a pre-Trib rapture.

***The word "apostasia," translated in the KJV as "a falling away" means departing, as in an "apostacion," divorcement. It was translated as "departing" in early Bibles, including The Geneva Bible, Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, The Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the departing that has to come before the Wicked One can be revealed. The Holy Spirit restrains him until after we are caught up to Heaven. After the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way, And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (II Thess. 2:7,8).

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Was Yeshua exactly 33 or was he closer to 33 and 7 months. Born on Sukkot and died on Pesach. Does this have any significance?

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I think he was born on Tishri 1 and died on Nisan 13 when 33 1/2.

It might have significance, because 1967 (Six-Day War, Sign of the End of the Age) + 33.5 = 2000.5. Half a year is 6 months. June is the 6th month. Sivan 7, Pentecost, is June 10. Jesus was 15 days over 33.5 years old when Resurrected. I fits pretty well.

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Thanks for your enlightening responses. I just can't wait until Jesus comes back. I feel as child does the day before a trip to Disney World!! The anticipation causes my insides to flutter at times!!! Thanks a lot!!

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The Rapture is nearer than ever. The seven good years seem to have started Sept. 13, 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed. Sept. 13, 1993 + 7 = Sept. 13, 2000, the very day when the Final Status peace agreement is to be signed. We are running out of time. The Pre-Trib Rapture must be before the Covenant is confirmed by the two beasts of Rev. 13. I think that will be on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 2001. The Rapture on Pentecost, 2000, may act as a catalyst pushing the world ever closer to the One World Government of the Tribulation years.

From the Feast of Weeks, 2001, to the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007 is the 2300 days (by inclusive reckoning) of Dan. 8:14. This is "the vision of the evening and the morning" (Dan. 8:26). It is as in Gen. 1:5, "And the evening and the morning were the first day." This is talking about 2300 literal DAYS. Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the DAILY sacrifice (1260-day first half of the Tribulation, Rev. 11:3), and the transgression of desolation (when the False Prophet sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God," II Thess. 2:4), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (2300 - 1260 = 1040, the Tribulation days when the daily sacrifices cannot be made because of the desecration of the temple).

Bonnie Gaunt said, "I do not believe in the Partial Rapture theory, because Jesus does not marry a 'partial bride' and there are not two weddings."

I think the Pre-Trib Rapture is for the Bride of Christ and the Pre-Wrath Rapture is for the remainder of the Body of Christ. There is only one Marriage of the Lamb. I expect it on Sept. 13, 2007. Rev. 19:9 says, "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." The wedding seems to come before the Tribulation saints are called "unto the marriage supper of the Lamb." Both the Marriage and the Marriage Supper take place the same day. I think it is Sept. 13, 2007, the last of the 7 bad years (Sept. 13, 1993 + 14 = Sept, 13, 2007).

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