Pro and Con 397

Uploaded 10-1-99

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I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT JESUS SAID. THEY ASK HIM THREE QUESTIONS. WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE DESTROYED, WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF HIS RETURN AND WHEN WILL THE WORLD END. HE ANSWERS NUMBER ONE IN GREAT DETAIL AND EVEN TELLS THEM THAT BEFORE THEIR GENERATION PASSES THE TEMPLE WOULD BE DESTROYED, AND IT WAS IN 70AD. NUMBER TWO HE TELLS THEM HE DOESNT KNOW WHEN HE WILL RETURN AND THAT WHEN HE DOES IT WONT BE SECRET (A RAPTURE) IT WILL BE LIKE THE LIGHTNING FLASHING FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST, BUT ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS THE DATE. THE NUMBER THREE, THE WORLD WILL END WHEN HE RETURNS. SIMPLE EASY AND NO SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST GARBAGE ADDED.........THE SINNER

My reply

> THE WORLD WILL END WHEN HE RETURNS

:-) You evidently failed to read Rev. 20:4, "they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND YEARS, or Isa. 60:21, "Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land FOR EVER."

> I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT JESUS SAID

I can understand why you can't understand. Someone seems to have sold you a bill of goods that was defective, and you bought it hook, line and sinker. Think for yourself. Compare things you are told with Scripture to see if those things are so.

> NO SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST GARBAGE ADDED

I am Baptist.

Please take a good look at Luke 21:7-36. Jesus started out discussing the course of this age with "Take heed that ye be not deceived." Then in verse 9, he said, But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must FIRST come to pass (some things came to pass in 70 AD); BUT THE END IS NOT BY AND BY" (the end of the age was not in 70 AD). Mt. 24:6 agrees. It says, see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, BUT THE END IS NOT YET." Mk. 13:7 agrees too. It says, "when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be: BUT THE END SHALL NOT BE YET."

Lu. 21:20-24 has to do with 70 AD. It says, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains: and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Jesus had told the Pharisees that "All these things shall come upon this generation" in Mt. 23:36. Those things did in 70 AD.

But notice the difference between Lu. 21:20's "WHEN ye shall SEE JERUSALEM COMPASSSED WITH ARMIES" and Mt. 24:15's "WHEN ye therefore shall SEE THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION." They are not alike. The former was to warn of the destruction of 70 AD. The latter is to warn of the destruction coming at the end of this age, I think in 2007 AD.

Continuing in Luke 21, Jesus said, "But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give such, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES BE FULFILLED."

The times of the Gentiles was to end sometime in the future. They were not fulfilled when Jerusalem was trodden down in 70 AD. Pay close attention to the wording. "Jerusalem shall be (in the future) trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL." The times of the Gentiles was ongoing until some future time. UNTIL that time arrived, Jerusalem was to be trodden down of the Gentiles.

That time arrived in our days when Israel took the rest of Jerusalem in the Six-Day War of 1967. Understanding this watershed of history enables us to understand that the rest of Luke 21 is talking about our days.

Starting with verse 25, Jesus said, "And there shall be SIGNS in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit., constellations)." We have been watching, as Jesus directed, and following the news of these signs as they develop. There was a very obvious one in the huge gamma ray burster of Jan. 23, 1999. It was so large, it boggles the mind. The total energy released equaled our Sun's output for 1.3 trillion years. It was in the tip of the spear in Bootes. Bootes is the shepherd whose name is from the Hebrew "Bo," meaning TO COME. A star in Bootes is Arcturus, meaning HE COMES. We are probably on the home lap right now.

A new star, Nova Velorum was found May 22, 1999. It is in the sail of the ship Argo, which means THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS. The two nearby stars in the sail are Suhail, THE DESIRED, and Aspidiske, THE RELEASED WHO TRAVEL.

On 6-3-98, two comets hit the Sun. On Nov. 18,19,20, 1998, the Moon's Sodium tail was discovered. Are you getting the message? Luke 28 says, And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, THEN LOOK UP, AND LIFT UP YOUR HEADS; FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWETH NIGH."

Lu. 21:34-36 warns us. It says, "take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon YOU UNAWARES. For as a snare (trap) shall it (the Tribulation) come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH YE THEREFORE, AND PRAY ALWAYS, THAT YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (that are coming in the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture).

When we stand before Christ in Heaven right after the Rapture, we will sing "a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). Did you notice that we are there singing before any of the seven seals are broken? We are there before the Tribulation begins with the breaking of the first seal.

Did you see that word "ESCAPE" in Lu. 21:36? There IS a way to ESCAPE the Tribulation. The Tribulation is a trial that is to come upon the whole world. Who can escape? The wise Philadelphian virgins (Mt. 25:1-10). In his message to Philadelphians, Jesus said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial) which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly (at the Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown" (Rev. 3:10,11).

> THREE QUESTIONS. WHEN WILL THE TEMPLE BE DESTROYED

70 AD.

> WHAT WILL BE THE SIGN OF HIS RETURN

The Six-Day War of 1967, when Israel grew four huge leaves (Gaza Strip, Sinai, Golan Heights, and West Bank, including the temple area) and fulfilled the parable of the fig tree of Mt. 24:32-34. It was the Sign of His Coming and the End of the Age.

> WHEN WILL THE WORLD END

It won't. Mt. 24:3 was mistranslated. In the KJV, it says, "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world." The Greek says, "suntelias tou aionos," consummation of the age?" The world has 40 years of probation between the Sign of the End of the Age and the Consummation of the Age (1967 + 40 = 2007).

Will you use I John 1:9 and confess your sins since you first accepted Christ? We must be wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the great "ESCAPE."

> WHEN HE DOES IT WONT BE SECRET (A RAPTURE)

I think the first Rapture will be SEEN. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the third heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a NEW SONG (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

> IT WILL BE LIKE THE LIGHTNING FLASHING FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST

That verse in Mt. 24:27 is not referring to the Second Advent, which comes 7 months after the Day of Destruction (Eze. 39:12). It is talking about the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30. The Sign of the Son of Man is seen after the sixth seal is broken and the smoky heavens rolled away like a scroll (Rev. 6:14). At that time, men left on Earth will say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 12:16,17). On that day, civilization as we know it will be destroyed, but we will only see it with our eyes--from Heaven. Two pieces of a binary asteroid will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8.10), causing the destruction. One will strike the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). The other will destroy Babylon (Rev. 18:21). I think the terror of terrors is due to impact Earth on the Feast of Trumpets that starts the millennial Day of the Lord, Tishri 1, 5768, Sept. 13, 2007.

My prayer is that you will be with us in Heaven before that awful day comes. Agape

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Re:focus
Acts 1:7-8 He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." (NIV)

Hello, anybody home?

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FWD: interesting post on van Impe
TODAY MARKS HISTORIC JEWISH CENSUS OF KOHANIM--PRIESTS AND LEVITES September 27, 1999

Israeli radio Arutz 7 reported today: "A census of all Kohanim (Priests) and Levi'im (Levites) - the first of its kind in 2,000 years - will kick off tonight in Jerusalem, in the context of the annual gathering of supporters of the building of the Third Temple. With the census, organizers are attempting to recreate the schedule of priestly and Levitical duties that existed during Temple times."

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I AM PERSONALLY A BELIVER OF LORD JESUS CHRIST. HOW CAN YOU SAY WITH ALL YOUR MATHMATICS WHEN THE RAPTURE WILL HAPPEN ESPECIALLY WITH SPECIFIC DATES. NO ONE KNOWS BUT GOD. ITS NOT ABOUT CALCULATIONS OR NUMBERS ITS ABOUT FAITH IF YOU KNOW HES COMING SOON HE IS THERE WILL BE SIGNS FROM HIM...

My reply

I am a believer in Christ also. I have strong faith. I have studied the Bible as hard and as deep as I can go ever since before 1960. I have written three books and have over 11 megs of Web pages up. In all this, I do not say that I know when the Rapture will happen. I am not a prophet. I just search the scriptures and say how it looks to me. I think it could be next Pentecost. How does it look to you?

What kind of signs are you looking for? Do you think we have had any signs already?

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Quoted from P&C 396:
> We are the Body of Christ. Maybe Christ is doing cures TO DAY and TO MORROW, and THE THIRD DAY WE SHALL BE PERFECTED. We know that we are to be tried to see if we will stand pat or give up. When the Israelites were at Sinai, they were put off until the Lord came down on the third day. Why? Ex. 19:10 says, "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them TO DAY AND TO MORROW, and let them WASH THEIR CLOTHES." We need to confess our sins so we have clean white robes.
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Thanks for your Web site and your diligent study of the Word. Just wanted to share that I am a living testimony to the above statement. As a believer who was in blatant rebellion from the Lord from Dec 1993-Dec 1997, I can attest that the Lord miraculously cured me and drew me back unto Himself in Jan. 1998. These last two years have truly been a curing restoration time for me, and I am so excited to be able to be pure and spotless for Him in the future. Thankfully, now, your study of prophecy in His Word truly excites me! Love in Jesus

My reply

I appreciate your sharing this with me. We all need to really be serious about getting right with God while there is time. We will have all of eternity to be grateful that we did. The Lord's burden is light and his shoulder strong to lean on. He is our helper all along the way, drawing us ever toward him. When we head away from him, our going gets tough, but when we turn around, suddenly it gets much easier. That is not to say that we won't be tested. We surely will, but testing does not last forever, either. Agape

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I've been struggling with some very large problems in my life for quite some time now, praying to God consistently for answers. Yesterday, I completely broke down, sobbing, crying out to the Lord. Then, to get my mind off of things, I logged on to your website to check new Pros/Cons, expecting to absorb myself in the typical discussions. HOWEVER, the very last topic at Pro/Con 396 was about a shipwrecked man. That story was God's response to my prayers!!! And it was posted there BEFORE I poured my heart out to God! That story helped to CONFIRM IN MY HEART that God is AHEAD of our troubles. My answers may not come soon, but I know that my loving, merciful, gracious Father is right there with me. Thank you, Marilyn, for that little tidbit.

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. the tidbit did not originate with me, but was sent to me. The Lord often has to move several people to accomplish his wishes in our lives. It reveals that he is in complete control. We do need to remember Rom. 8:28 in the midst of our trials. God did not promise that everything that happens to us would be good. What he did promise was that "all things WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Even gem stones often have crust on the outside that needs to be ground off to expose the beauty within. We have to walk by faith no matter what happens and cast our cares on Him. God bless

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i can see you are very deep in baptist thinking and are not going to accept this easy. the teaching you teach about the rapture the new temple beginning with the modern jewish nation is seventh day adventist. there is no argument on this subject. now look at this. rev 20 satan is bound is matt 12:28-29. he is only restrained from decieving the nations for a thousand years. now we read of the thrones and judgement and reigning. this is john 20:23, ephesians 2:6, now the first resurection is not some fantasy rapture but one of the most important events in life, being "born again". this is the first resurection and those of us that are have no fear of the second death. read john 5:25, (now is), ephesians 2:1, have you never read that we were dead in our sins and made alive??? christ comes back one more time not twice. i feel sorry for people who claim to be in a group and not christian. they want the group to win and not the bible. i know what i may be telling you seems strange but after you look at it it is clear. i believe that matt and luke are the same story. every generation has hoped it will be in theirs. but just a few years ago scofield and his interpretation of the bible introduced the rapture and that luke and matt are different stories. open your eyes sister and learn the facts. you will soon see that scofield started it. it is not old it is new. and for centuries the interpretation of signs in the moon and stars and sun was applied to the jewish leaders. scofield also made that to be literal. we can read from genesis to revelation that God often uses those symbols to represent leaders. remember josephs dream? there is no scripture to back you up. you have to make scripture fit your preconcieved conclusions and are not free to see the truth. become a christian and not a baptist, named for john who himself said he wasnt the one.....this is fun but sad because there are so many like you out there. i challenge you to prove to me that the rapture teaching was believed by the apostles or taught in the bible. you will see that it is quite recent and a total waste of time. i will pray that you see the light and scofield and the adventist will lose another follower.

My reply

I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and only believe what the Bible says. It is the only absolute truth we have to go by. I also believe that God said exactly what he meant. When Rev. 20:10 says, "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever," I believe it. When I Thess. 4:16,17 says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord," I believe it. When Lu. 21:36 says, "pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things," I believe it. I am sorry that you don't.

I arrived at my position by studying God's Word. I have been studying it as hard and deep as I could go ever since before 1960. I do not believe what any church group or any person says without comparing it with Scripture to see if it is so. You are right, I cannot swallow what you are telling me--because it is contrary to the plain meaning of Scripture.

It is sad to see that you have no "blessed hope." Titus 2:12,13 says that "we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world: Looking for that BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious APPEARING of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ."

You don't even know that the Rapture is not a recent invention. Paul taught it. John taught it. In his just-under-1500-word sermon, "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," Pseudo-Ephraem (c.374-627 AD) taught it. He said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Even Isaiah taught it. He said, "THE righteous perisheth (abad, exit, evacuate, escape), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come (the Tribulation). He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (Isa. 57:1-3).

The Rapture is when the Tribulation and the reign of the Beast and False Prophet is "NEAR." We are near that time now. The Rapture is finally "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). Now is the time that Rev. 3:8 is talking about. Jesus said, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an OPEN DOOR." Heaven's door is open, and "the judge standeth before the DOOR" (James 5:9).

James 5:7-9 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren (believers), unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR."

There is a Pre-Trib Rapture, and the foolish virgins will be cut off at that time. Mt. 24 ends with "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) shall come in a DAY when he looketh not for him and in an HOUR that he is not aware of. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The companion passage in Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the foolish one) will come in a DAY when he looketh not for him, and at an HOUR when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened Tribulation) with the unbelievers."

To the foolish Laodiceans, Jesus said, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue (emesai, vomit) thee out of my mouth." You see, Lu. 21:36 means what it says. We must be accounted WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things. You don't even know that there is an escape, so you are in danger of not escaping. To be worthy, we need to confess every known sin since we first accepted Christ. If we do that, he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).

In Dan. 12:4, we see that in the time of the end, "knowledge shall be increased," but verse 10 says, "none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise SHALL understand."

> christ comes back one more time not twice

He comes in the air in I Thess. 4:17. His feet touch the Mt. of Olives at the Second Advent (Zech. 14:4). There is a difference.

> i challenge you to prove to me that the rapture teaching
> was believed by the apostles or taught in the bible

Paul said, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Tess. 4:16,17).

John quoted Jesus. He said, "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places): if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (Jn. 14:2,3).

Both Paul and John were apostles. Both were caught up to heaven. They knew firsthand what they were talking about.

Paul said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool: for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, let any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure" (II Cor. 12:1-7).

John said, "behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne" (Rev. 4:1,2).

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FWD: READ THIS!!
Public schools teaching occult religion? Lawsuit challenges tax funding of New Age curriculum, By Stephan Archer, 1999 WorldNetDaily.com

SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- The implementation of the Waldorf curriculum -- an educational philosophy related to the New Age religion "Anthroposophy" -- in some California public schools, has stirred up controversy as opponents say its use violates the U.S. Constitution.

People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools, an unlikely coalition of liberals and evangelical Christians, has filed suit against both the Sacramento City Unified School District and Twin Ridges Elementary School District for allowing public funds to be used to set up schools which teach the Waldorf curriculum. In the lawsuit, PLANS contends that public Waldorf schools are "intrinsically and inseparably" based upon Anthroposophy, a religion that PLANS further contends is occultic in nature.

What is Anthroposophy? "The Waldorf Teacher's Survival Guide" is designated by the Sacramento City Unified School District as one of its resource materials for "training or instruction in Waldorf teaching methods or Waldorf curriculum." WorldNetDaily obtained a copy of the 67-page pamphlet, published in 1992 and written by Eugene Schwartz, head of the Waldorf teacher training program at Sunbridge College in Spring Valley, N.Y. The "Guide" says, on page 54: "Most of that which contributes to our work as teachers, preparation work, artistic work, even meditative work, is under the guardianship of Lucifer. We can become great teachers under his supervision, for he is responsible for much that has blossomed in the unfolding of civilization and culture in the past."

Full story: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19991001_xex_public_schoo.shtml

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