Pro and Con 399

Uploaded 10-3-99

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> Thank you for explaining your ideas in an organized manner and for correcting me about
> the word "rapture." You are correct, it is found in several different translations of
> the Bible as you stated. But your version of the "rapture" is not in the Bible. You
> stated:
> > The Pre-trib rapture is the first trump of God (I Thess. 4:16). You also stated:
> >(i.e., the first trump, Rev 4:1) Therefore you believe these "trumps" are the same trump.
> I agree with you. They are the same trump, but they occur at the end of the Tribulation.

***From Marilyn: How can the trump that sounds before the "book," the Title Deed to the Earth, is even given to Christ be at the end of the Tribulation? The things written in the "book" are the events of the Tribulation. They take place as the seals are broken. Rev. 4:1 takes place, and afterward come "things which must be hereafter." The "book" is hereafter. The first seal is hereafter.

> Have you forgotten that when John was shown the things in Rev chapters 4&5 it was on
> the Lord's day, Rev 1:10 (i.e. the first day of the millenium, Rev 16:14)

***No. I think the Lord's day is the Day of Christ, also called the Day of the Son of Man, the day of the Rapture (Lu. 17:22-27), not the millennial Day of the Lord. Elijah must come before the Day of the Lord comes. Mal. 4:5 says, "I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD."

> The trump you named also coincided with the seventh trump written in both: > Rev 11:15 and 1Cor 15:52. Look at the action which takes place after the > Trump in Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:15. It is the same action, but from a different > perspective(Rev 4:10 = Rev 11:16).

***The trumpet sounded in Rev. 11:15 is not the "trump of God" of I Thess 4:16. All of the seven trumpets of judgment are sounded by angels, not God. The "last trump" of I Cor. 15:52 is sounded by God. It calls the Tribulation saints up before the seven trumpet judgments are sounded by angels. Just because the elders are seen in Heaven both times doesn't mean these are the same events. Once called up, the elders are there throughout the Tribulation.

> I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion in Nu 10:2-4 that the princes
> (Hebrew:nasi- captain,chief,govenor,prince) are the same as elders (Greek:prebuteros-
> the order of elders)

***Twelve of the 24 elders are the apostles. Mt. 19:27,28 says, "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Since 12 elders are the apostles, it seems reasonable to assume that the other 12 are the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel.

> For having read 15 versions of the Bible, I can't believe you have never read Satan is
> going to rapture (harpazo) people away. Let the Word open your eyes a bit. Satan will
> come falsely as God as you know, 2 Thes 2:3-4.

***I can believe it. It is not there. Satan will come and inhabit the body of the False Prophet, who will then speak as a dragon (Rev. 13:11). Then the False Prophet will immediately go sit in the temple showing himself that he is God. That has nothing to do with Satan rapturing people away.

> Let's look at Luke 10:18 (Christ is speaking of the end times.)
> 18-And heb(Christ) said unto them, I beheld Satan as LIGHTNING fall from heaven.

***Lu. 10:17-19 says, "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you." What makes that apply to the end times?

***Isa. 51:16 says, "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1); awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut (split) Rahab (Satan's planet), and wounded the dragon (Satan)." A lot has gone on previously. Jesus was referring to something that was past, not future.

> Now let's go to the same happening at Rev 6:1-2. 1-And I saw the Lamb (Christ) opened one
> of the seals, and I heard, as it was the noise of THUNDER, one of the four beast saying,
> Come and see. (Thunder is the direct result of lightning) 2-And I saw, and behold a white
> horse: and he that sat upon him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went
> forth conquering and to conquer. This is Satan, but who else will come on a white horse?
> God of course! Satan in that verse is coming just as God will come in > Rev 19:11.

***The man riding the white horse at the beginning of the Tribulation is THE BEAST of Rev. 13:2-10, the sixth head of the great red dragon. Rev. 6:2 says, "I saw. And behold, a white horse! And He that was sitting on it had a bow (toxon, bow of the simplest fabric [i.e., a man of the cloth, the Tribulation Pope], from tikto, strengthened form of teko, to produce from seed, as a mother, i.e., he is the Pontifex Maximus of 'MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH' Rev. 17:5). He is the sixth head of the great red dragon. Isa. 9:15 says, "The ancient and honourable (i.e., the Pope), he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail." The tail is Satan himself. The tail inhabits the seventh head, the False Prophet.

> Look at their weapons. Satan carries a bow. God carries the sword of his > Word(tongue). > > And how will God take his people, the faithful? > In the air to meet him at the end of the Tribulation (1Cor 15:51-52).

***There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture is seen in I Thess. 4:13-18. The Pre-Wrath Rapture is seen in I Cor. 15:51,52. The first is as the days of Noah. No fire falls that day. The second is as the days of Lot. Fire falls "the same day" (Lu. 17:26-29).

> Satan will take the unfaithful in a similar manner.

***No scripture will back you up on that.

> The Wrath of God is to be poured out on unbelievers left on Earth after the Pre-Wrath
> Rapture (Rev. 6:15-17). Matt 13:19 When he (the unfaithful) heareth the word of the
> kingdom, and understandeth it NOT, then cometh the wicked one (Satan), and catcheth
> away that which was sown in his heart.

***Catching away what was sown in one's heart is a far cry from a Rapture.

> This is similar to many verses when God comes. For example, > > 1Thes 4:17 > 17-Then we which are alive and remain(the faithful) shall be caught up. > > If Satan takes someone, that person really isn't going to go anywhere accept > to the flaming pit, when God Judges everyone in Rev 11:18. How else can > Satan come as God except from heaven telling people he is God. Hey, if > people are waiting to be "raptured" away before the tribulation, Satan may > very well oblige and "conquer" them.

***And he very well may not. Jesus will not lose any of his own. Satan can't rapture them away. John 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing."

> As for the fact that Satan cannot harm people armed with the word of God. This is true
> 1Pet 3:12-13, but even if you don't have faith in that scripture you still shouldn't
> fear him, Matt 10:28. Remember there are two different tribulations. The tribulation
> of God, and the tribulation of Satan.

***The Tribulation is the Seventieth Week of Daniel.

> Protection from the Tribulation of God- Rev 9:4, Rev 7:3 The tribulation of Satan
> Rev 6:1-2. (Don't worry the faithful will triumph.)

***That is the first seal of the "book," the Title Deed of the Earth, that is given Christ. THE BEAST is the first to ride forth as a leader when the Tribulation begins.

> Lastly I will interpret the verse Luke 21:38. 38- Watch ye therefore, and pray always,
> that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass,...
> First "escape" (Greek:ekphego) should have been translated ek= from phego= to keep
> away ekphego = keep away from

***Even that way, we are to be kept from the Tribulation.

> As it is stated previously in both Rev 9:4 and Rev 7:3, God will keep us
> safe from the tribulation.

***To be kept away from is very different from to be kept through. We are given a chance to totally escape the Tribulation. The way we can get enough oil of the Holy Spirit to be taken by the Bridegroom when he comes is to repent and confess our sins. See I John 1:9.

> Thank you Marilyn for replying to me. I enjoyed discussing the Eternal Word of God.
> Let's do it again sometime. May God bless you and your family. Sincerly

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I'm glad to know you all are hanging in there. Ed seems to be pulling his own, and Brandi just seems to be a miracle. We thank the Lord for it, and all you do.

In John's vision in Revelation, we see the churches of Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira and Sardis, are told to repent. Sardis is told to "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die:" These words suggest to me an undefined amount of time between these warnings, and the first fruits rapture. At the rapture, no amount of time is left to do anything, because he comes "quickly". The warnings appear to require some time.

I'm wondering how this time fits with the fig tree parable where Jesus comes looking two years, speaks the third, and does neither the fourth. More specifically, could these warnings have been activated for the church on pentecost 1998?

My reply getting stronger by exercising at Rehab, and I do think he is walking at a little faster pace at the mall....He has cataracts in both eyes. That is why he can't often see the hawks that I see. The other day I saw a falcon light on a telephone pole as we were almost even with it. He missed it. They are experimenting with a falcon at March Reserve Air Base to try to keep small birds off the runways. I read about it in the paper, but this was the first time I saw the falcon myself. We were approaching March when I saw it.

Yes, Brandi is a miracle. She is doing all the normal things an 11-year old would do. When she got well, it was sudden and complete, except for some fungus on palms and soles of her feet because of the antibiotic barrage she had. Her brain is as sharp as ever. We sure appreciate your prayers.

> the churches of Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira and Sardis, are told to repent.

So is the church of Laodicea. The ones that are not told to repent are the persecuted ones of Smyrna and the church showing brotherly love, the Philadelphians. Since we don't want to try to be in the persecuted group, the group we should try to move into is the Philadelphian. To accomplish this, we must repent and confess our sins. It isn't like we haven't been told before, but now we are told over and over again. It is getting more urgent, as if things are building to a climax.

Ephesus "left thy first love." Philadelphia means brotherly love. One of God's attributes is love. The Holy Spirit in us is therefore God's love in us. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we are filled with his love.

What happened to Ephesus? She seems to have forgotten that she needs to repent and confess her sins so she can get back in fellowship with the Lord. As sins accumulate, the sin barrier between us and God grows. In Rev. 2:5, Jesus says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; OR ELSE I will come unto thee quickly (at the Rapture), and will REMOVE thy candlestick out of HIS PLACE (Heaven, Jn. 14:2), except thou REPENT."

These people need to confess their sins, as I John 1:9 instructs. Then they will move over into the Philadelphian group. To them, Jesus said (Green's Interlinear), "Because you kept the word of My patience, I also will KEEP YOU OUT OF THE HOUR OF TRIAL WHICH IS ABOUT TO COME." When the Rapture takes place, the Tribulation is "ABOUT TO COME." It is not here, but not far away, either.

These evaluations of the churches is when the Rapture is "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10). If the Rapture became "at hand" the first year of the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9, the time slot for the Rapture is fast closing in on us, for world events show us that the Tribulation is "about to come." The Final Status Peace Agreement is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. I think it will be "confirmed" (Dan. 9:27) by the Beast and False Prophet on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001.

Notice that Jesus "is WALKING" (Rev. 2:1, Green's) in the midst of the churches when he gives the messages. That suggests that he comes LOOKING in those years. Lu. 13:6-0 in Green's says, "He told this parable: A certain one had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard. And HE CAME LOOKING for fruit on it, but found none. And he SAID (in the third year) to the vinedresser, See! For three years I HAVE COME LOOKING for fruit on this fig-Tree (Israel) and have found none. Cut it down! Why does it still waste this land? And he answered him, Sir, let it alone this year also, until I have dug around it and fertilized it. Perhaps it may really bear fruit. But if not, then you may cut it down." If Jesus CAME looking for fruit in 1998, it makes sense that he would evaluate the churches at the same time.

> could these warnings have been activated for the church on pentecost 1998?

It seems to fit. Let's look at some more of the messages to the churches and see what comes to light. I'll stick with Green's Interlinear New Testament. Sometimes, I can see things more clearly when using it.

To Ephesus, Jesus said, "But this you have, that you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." Nicolaitans is from "nikao" to conquer, and "laos," the people." Youngs Concordance: the followers of Nicolas, which means "conqueror of the people."

Right now, we have a World Government and World Church being planned for the next century, which really starts Jan. 1, 2001. The planners do aim to conquer the people. As the Tribulation begins, Rev. 6:2 says, "I saw. And behold, a white horse! And He that was sitting on it had a bow (toxon, bow of the simplest fabric [i.e., a man of the cloth], from tikto, strengthened form of teko, to produce from seed, as a mother, i.e., he is the Pontifex Maximus of 'the mother of the harlots,' Rev. 17:5). And a crown was given to Him. And He went out OVERCOMING (nikon), and so that He might overcome (nikesu)."

Continuing, Rev. 2:7 says, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who evercomes I will give him to eat of the tree of life, which is in the middle of the paradise of God." What was Ephesus told to do? repent. To be an overcomer, one must repent.

The message to Pergamos says, "I know your works and where you live, where the throne of Satan is...where Satan lives" (2:13). Attalus III willed Pergamos to Rome upon his death. Therefore the Pontifex Maximus of the Mystery Religion of Babylon moved from Pergamos to Rome, and is there at the present time. In the Tribulation, the "woman (i.e., harlot) that sitteth in the midst of the ephah" (largest wheat measure, i.e., world church) will be moved to Babylon. Zech. 5:11 (KJV) says, "To build it (the world church) an house in the land of Shinar (where the Tower of Babel was, Gen. 11:2): and it (the world church) shall be established, and set there upon HER (the harlot Mystery Religion's) own base (mekunah, place for setting on, pedestal)." The Mystery Religion of Babylon will end up where it started, at the Tower of Babel.

The church of Pergamos is throwing "a stumbling-block before the sons of Israel, TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS AND TO COMMIT FORNICATION" (joining together). Rev. 2:15,16 says, "So do you also have those who are holding to the teaching of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent! But if not, I WILL COME TO YOU QUICKLY (the Rapture) and I will make war with them (the Nicolaitans) with the sword in My mouth." The Nicolaitans will be cut off.

The message to Thyatira echoes one told to Pegamos. Rev. 2:20,21 says, "I have a few things against you, that you allow that woman Jezebel [meaning Baal is the priest] (the one who calls herself a prophetess) to teach and to lead My servants astray TO COMMIT FORNICATION AND TO EAT THINGS SACRIFICED TO IDOLS. And I GAVE HER TIME (how much time?) so that she might repent of her fornication, and she did not repent."

The next verses, Rev. 2:22,23, I will quote from under the Greek words to eliminate the "will" that was not in the original. It says, Lo, I cast (present tense) her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her (join with her) into tribulation great, EXCEPT THEY SHOULD REPENT of works their. And her children I will kill with death; and shall know all the assemblies that I am he who searches reins and hearts; and I will give to you each according to works your."

Now back to Green's translation. Verses 24-28 are significant. "But to you I say, and to the rest who are in Thyatira (as many as do not have THIS TEACHING, and WHO DID NOT KNOW THE DEEP THINGS OF SATAN, as they say) I will not put on you any other load. But what you have, HOLD FAST UNTIL I COME [at the Rapture]. And he that overcomes, and he that keeps My works until the end, I will give him authority over the nations.And he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron, even as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, even as I also have received from My Father--and I (Christ) will give to him (the overcomer, the one who repents) the Morning Star" (Heaven is a morning star). Only the one who repents is given the Morning Star here. This Morning Star is not Christ. Even those of the church who do not repent are believers and have Christ in their heart. Jesus said he was the Morning Star because that is where his throne is located.

Sardis is not given a clean bill of health, although a few are clothed in white. In Rev. 3:2-5, Jesus says, "BE WATCHFUL and make strong the things that remain, which are ABOUT TO DIE." The Tribulation is near, and there are things which are about to die during that time. "For I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember then how you have received and heard, and KEEP THEM, AND REPENT. If then you will NOT WATCH, I will come on you as a thief, and you shall not know in what hour I shall come on you. You have a few names also in Sardis which have NOT MADE THEIR ROBES UNCLEAN. And they shall walk with Me in white, BECAUSE THEY ARE WORTHY. He that overcomes (i.e., repents), THIS ONE SHALL BE CLOTHED IN WHITE ROBES, and I will NEVER IN ANY WAY blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will CONFESS his name before My Father and before His angels." If we confess our sins, we will wear white and He will confess our name to the Father.

Here we can see that the way to be accounted worthy to escape the Tribulation (Lu. 21:36) is to confess our sins. That is how we buy oil and white robes, not with money, but by confessing our sins committed after we accepted Christ, putting them ALL under the blood of Christ.

The last group to be told to repent is Laodicea. In 3:14-19 says, "So, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I AM ABOUT TO SPIT YOU OUT OF MY MOUTH. Because you say, I am rich and have need of nothing--and do not KNOW that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked--I advise you to buy from Me gold made pure by fire, so that you may be rich, and WHITE ROBES so that you may be clothed, and the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed--and to anoint your eyes with eye salve so that you may see. AS MANY AS I LOVE I REBUKE AND DISCIPLINE. SO BE FERVENT AND REPENT."

See where Jesus said, "I AM ABOUT TO SPIT YOU OUT"? At this point, the Rapture is also ABOUT TO take place. That "BE FERVENT AND REPENT" seems to be the last thing Jesus tells the church before the door snaps shut. Here is where the Rapture described in Rev. 4:1 takes place. Verses 20 and 21 look forward. After they are left behind, they must open to Christ and let him come in. They need to repent and get rid of the sin barrier so that they can be filled with the Spirit of Christ. They will still get to Heaven with the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, but at the Pre-Trib Rapture, if they did not repent, they did not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to be ACCOUNTED WORTHY of ESCAPING all those things that are coming upon the whole world to try them.

What all living Christians should do today is repent so they can be counted as a Philadelphian. Repent means turn around. Instead of going away from God, they turn around and go toward God, confessing their sins so as to be in fellowship with God. If we persist too long in going away from him, we will be in danger of being cut off at the time of the first Rapture (Lu. 12:46; Mt. 24:51).

In Rev. 3:8-12, Jesus tells the Philadelphians, "I know your works. Behold! I HAVE SET AN OPEN DOOR BEFORE YOU, and no one is able to shut it, because you have a little power and did KEEP MY WORD and DID NOT DENY MY NAME....Because you KEPT (past tense) the word of My patience, I also WILL (future) keep you OUT OF the hour of trial (the Tribulation) which is ABOUT TO COME (not here, but soon) on the whole world to try those who live on the earth. Behold! I COME QUICKLY! (the Rapture) HOLD FAST that which you have so that no one may take your crown....He that overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God. And he shall NEVER go out any more. And I will write the name of My God on him, and the name of the city of My God--the new Jerusalem."

When the Tribulation is "ABOUT TO COME" Jesus says, "Behold! I COME QUICKLY!" He doesn't tell us to look for the apostacy or for the Wicked One to be revealed. When the Tribulation is near, the Pre-Trib Rapture is near.

Now, do these messages fit into the four years in the parable of the barren fig tree? It's three years remind me of a baseball game, three strikes and you are out. Lu. 13:6-9 says, "A certain one had a fig-tree (Israel) planted in his vineyard. And HE CAME LOOKING for fruit on it, but found none. And he SAID (he spoke only in the third year) to the vinedresser, See! For THREE YEARS I HAVE COME LOOKING for fruit on this fig-tree and have found none. Cut it down! Why does it still waste this land? And he answered him, Sir, let it alone this year also, until I have dug around it and fertilized it. Perhaps it may really bear fruit. But if not, then you may cut it down" (in the Tribulation).

Since the last year of the four seems to fit the beginning of the Tribulation, and Rev. 4:1 mentions "what things must happen after these things (i.e., the Tribulation), it looks like the messages to the churches and the four years of the parable do fit together at that point. If so, these four years seem to bridge the gap between the 6000th year (5758, 1997/1998) and the beginning of the Tribulation in 2001 (5758, 5759, 5760, and 5761, which is 2000/2001).

As you pointed out, there seems to be a progression of time. The KJV's "strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die" seems to indicate more time. Then a few verses later, suddenly the Laodiceans have a final warning and no more time. The door is shut. There is reason to think that the messages, when the time is "at hand," do fit within the four years of the parable.

This is not to say that these messages didn't also fit the history of the church. I think they fit both the history of the church and the final four years before the Tribulation begins. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, so I could look at these scriptures closely.

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FWD: Re: more mark of the beast, A very interesting post by Robin MacAhan on 5D recently:...

1) The University of Virginia Medical Center will begin to "implant electronic chips" in babies as soon as they are born. Parents who protest may become involved in lawsuits or lose their babies." [August 9, 1999 - Time Magazine]

2) "Typical American family (in) 2008: The parents, the kids and the dogs all have microchips under their skin with ID and medical data." This is from the magazine of Steve Forbes, a contender for the Republican candidacy for president. [September 22, 1997 - Forbes Magazine (Technology)]...

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Updated 10-3-99