Pro and Con 404

Uploaded 10-13-99

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Re: Date setting: Claud Lowe wrote:

> God said don't set dates.

***Where? Quote me chapter and verse. Are you putting your words in his mouth?

***Maybe you just missed reading a few things. First of all, I am not a prophet. I am not saying things have to happen when I think they will. I am just saying how it looks to me. And in case you didn't see it, the reason I am sharing what I see in Scripture is because I saw a rectangle of light on Jer. 50:2. It said to publish and conceal not. I feel sure that you would agree that I should obey God rather than you.

> Quit guessing. That disappoints some who want to believe. When they're
> disappointed because Jesus doesn't come, they turn away from God altogether.

Give me the name and email address of one. I sure would like to contact them. If our faith is not strong enough to stand testing, is it strong enough to get us chosen as the Bride of Christ?

> Just be happy he's coming when his Father says so, not man.

The Father is in Christ. II Cor. 5:19 says that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Christ is the YHVH of hosts that man has had to deal with all along. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Jesus tried to tell you that, but maybe you didn't understand it when he said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the ALMIGHTY" (Rev. 1:8). He said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Lord of the Old Testament) and the end (Lord of the New Testament), the first (YHVH king of Israel) and the last (YHVH of hosts, the redeemer)" (Rev. 22:13). Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

> In Matt 24, Jesus told you what to look for just before he comes and
> when the Rapture would take place. Any supposition or yanking any
> verse out of context changes the meaning of that verse. Leave it where it is.

***Where did the Lord say that? Isa. 28:13 says, "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." Maybe you missed that one too.

> The world will not end in 2000 or 2001 or 20002 either. The bible says
> so. There must be seven years of Tribulation. That cannot be plainer.

***It is according to what you mean by world. If you mean "kosmos," the order of things, that will change. If you mean the Earth, it will be here forever. However, civilization as we know it will be destroyed on the Day of God's Wrath, at the end of the shortened Tribulation. The Earth will need to be refreshed to make it a fit habitat for man during the Millennium.

> God said he would try his people by fire and bring them through great
> tribulation tried and tested. Jesus, in Matthew 24 said many would be
> slain for his name's sake and his gospel. Don't guess, read and believe.

***Are you guessing? Why didn't you look it up before you went on record? Mt. 24:9 is addressed to the disciples in 30 AD. To them, Jesus said, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." Only in verse 14 did Jesus say, "and then shall the end come." You need to read it very carefully. The Tribulation was not in 30 AD. It is to come in the end of this Dispensation of Grace, not the beginning of it.

> We are not to change the word for any reason even to use it to guess when he's coming.

***I would be scared to death to change the word of God. However, when I find a clue, I don't shut my eyes and try to forget that I saw it. Jesus told the Pharisees, "When it is evening ye say, "It will be fair weather; for the sky is red." And in the morning, "It will be foul weather today: for the sky is red and lowring." O YE HYPOCRITES, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the SIGNS OF THE TIMES?" (Mt. 16:2-3).

***Do you know that Eze. 29:17,21 shows the month and day of the month when he will come at the Second Advent? Neither did the Pharisees, and it was in their scriptures. Do you know that the year of the Crucifixion was foretold in Dan. 9:25,26? Neither did the Pharisees. Do you know that the month and day of both Advents were foretold in Hos. 6:3? Neither did the Pharisees. They were the blind leading the blind. In Mark 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." You won't find the clues if you don't look. Even if you read them, you won't understand them unless you are examining them carefully.

> I believe that America may well fall by March of 2000.

***Woops! you are guessing. Oh, and setting a date. Your words don't come over with a whole lot of conviction when you do what you tell me not to do.

> It is even likely when all the computer nets crash due to failure of overseas
> computers. Since every facet of American life depends on computers now.
> I pray that God will help you to understand that you shouldn't guess.

***Are you missing out on the grace promised you as you search for clues to when he will come? I Peter 1:10-12 says the prophets "prophesied of the GRACE that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of TIME the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." The angels desire to look into these things, and you don't?

> Just depend on him to come when it's time, not before.

***Aren't you afraid he will come and find you sleeping? or not ready like the foolish virgins? I want to be watching because he COMMANDED us to "Watch." In Mark 13:35-37, Jesus said, Watch ye therefore; for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning (no mention of the day, month or year): Lest coming suddenly he find YOU SLEEPING. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

***Jesus warned the church. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Rev. 3:3). What will happen if you do watch?

> As always, in Christ

PS: Re: Green's Interlinear:

> Jesus said in Matthew 24 that he would send his angels with the sound of a great trumpet
> to gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I Green
> is right then the seven trumpets and vials cannot happen. That is the last trump which
> is contradictory to scripture. Believe Jesus, not man. Man is egotripped, especially
> nowadays. Which do you believe, Jesus or Green? It is one or the other as you can't
> have it both ways. A bible over man believer

***Let's see what it is you are talking about. In Mt. 24:31, the King James Version of the Holy Bible says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

***Green's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament says, "and He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

***Please tell me what is the difference? Could it be that you are saying that Scripture is wrong? that it is contradicting Scripture? Here is what you said,

> I Green is right then the seven trumpets and vials cannot happen. That is the
> last trump which is contradictory to scripture.

***Do you want to stand by that one?

***What you seem not to understand is that the trumpet sounded at the Pre-Trib Rapture is "the trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16). The trumpet sounded at the Pre-Wrath Rapture is "the last trump" of God (I Cor. 15:52). The seven trumpet judgments come after the Pre-Wrath Rapture. They are sounded by angels, not by God (Rev. 8:2).

***You may not have read Mark 13:27. In the KJV, it says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

***In Green's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Mark 13:27 says, "And then He will send His angels and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the furthest part of the earth to the furthest part of Heaven." Is there a big difference?

***I Cor. 11,12 (KJV) says, Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

***The two silver trumpets the Lord told Moses to make typify the two trumps of God to assemble his saints before the Judgment Seat of Christ. Nu. 10:2,3 (KJV) says, "Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e with them both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., the elders), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."

***At the first trump of God, the wise Philadelphian virgins will be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture. At the second and last trump of God, the foolish Laodicean virgins will be caught up with the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The first group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the first seal is broken to start the Tribulation. The second group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14, before the seventh seal is broken to start the seven trumpet judgments.

> Which do you believe, Jesus or Green? It is one or the other as you can't
> have it both ways. A bible over man believer

***I believe Jesus. I also believe that Green faithfully translated Scripture. He gives the Greek text in which the New Testament was originally written. Under each word, he gives the meaning. Then in the margin, he gives his English translation. If you don't think a Greek word means what he says it means, you can look it up in Strong's Concordance or Thayer's Lexicon. That will show you whether he knew Greek, or whether you know more about it than he did. If you don't like the way he translated it, there is the original Greek. You can read it if you would rather do that than read his translation into English.

***Green also translated the Hebrew Old Testament the same way, putting the English words under each Hebrew word, then giving his English translation in a separate column. If you don't like his translation, you can always read the original Hebrew. You can't easily go wrong that way.

***Prove all things by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Hang on to that which is true. Let the rest go. Agape

Incoming Email

I Hope everyone is fine.I was just talking with my father on the phone and we were discussing about World War 2, and he told me that the Normandy invasion was June 6,1944 , he was in that Battle.I was thinking June 6 rings a bell.There was another Battle June 6,1967.My point being that both wars were wars of Deliverance for the Jewish people.If this pattern sticks we may see another June Deliverance, more likely next June for the June Bride, and the start of a Final Deliverance for that nation. Satan is running out of time, his Lease is about to expire with no extensions.I highly recommend a book by Jim Harman called "THE COMING SPIRITUAL EARTHQUAKE; at site http://www.prophecycountdown.com/cse/index.shtml. Copyright 1998.I believe the last generation started on June 6,1967 and will end on the year 2oo7.God Bless you All.
ps. Thanks Marilyn for the time you have spent in sharing the Gospel with others from your site.

My reply

We are fine. Brandi is too. Thank you Lord.

I too think the last generation started in 1967 and will run to 2007.

I DL the book by Jim Harman. I was glad he was telling people how important it is to get ready. All was running along smoothly. Then, woops! I ran into some things I disagree with. He claims he is giving strong meat to the church, yet some of the things he says do not ring true. I will comment on a few things.

Jim Harmon said,
> ...the fourteenth chapter of Revelation...gives an overall outline of the entire
> Tribulation period....This outline has been obscured from most in the Church because of
> the assumption that the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:1-8, are the same 144,000
> described in Revelation 14.

***He thinks they are two different groups because in one group, each has a "SEAL" in their forehead, and in the other group, each has "HIS NAME and HIS FATHER'S NAME written on their forehead." I think those names constitute a seal. Rev. 7:2 (KJV) calls it "the seal of the living God." Rev. 14:1 calls it "having his Father's name written in their foreheads." I think they are the same group in both chapters 7 and 14.

***Those of Rev. 7 are part of "the great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations (including Israel)...which came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:9-14). They arrive in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

***Rev. 14 continues the story. The 144,000 are seen in Heaven singing "as it were a new song" (14:3) similar to the "new song" sung by the saints after the Pre-Trib Rapture. It is different, because only the 144,000 Israelites can learn that song.

> There are also other characteristics which show that these are not the same
> 144,000. Those in chapter 14 are in Heaven:

> "And I heard a sound from HEAVEN like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal
> of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they
> sang a new song before the THRONE and before the four living creatures and the elders..."
> (Revelation 14:2-3)

> Those found in Revelation 14, are in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation begins (Rev. 14:6-7),
> while those described in Revelation 7:1-8, are sealed for protection from the wrath to
> come on the EARTH (see Revelation 9:4). The 144,000, of Revelation 7, are on the earth IN
> the Tribulation, while the scene shown in Revelation 14, is of 144,000, before the heavenly
> throne PRIOR TO the hour of Judgment....

***The 144,000 of Rev. 14 are in Heaven on the Day of God's Wrath. They got there in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Rev. 7:14,15 says of the great multitude, of all nations, including Israel, "These are they which came out of great tribulation...Therefore are they before the THRONE of God." In Rev. 6:12, the sixth seal is broken. In 6:17, "the great day of his wrath is come." Then the great multitude of Tribulation saints, including the 144,000 are caught up to Heaven before the seventh seal is broken in Rev. 8, releasing the seven trumpet judgments.

> ..."Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE
> HOUR OF TEMPTATION..."(Revelation 3:10 (KJ))...

> The only possible explanation of who the "HE" is in the above verse, is the MALE CHILD
> that is found in Revelation 12:5. This fits in perfectly with what we have already
> learned. Once the MALE CHILD is taken out of the way (Greek: ABUNDANTLY ABOVE) then the
> Anti-christ is revealed. The MALE CHILD is SNATCHED UP to heaven, abundantly above, the
> reach of the dragon...

***I think that Rev. 3:10 applies to the Pre-Trib Rapture and has nothing to do with Rev. 12. He thinks the male child of Rev. 12 is the Pre-Trib Rapture. I think it is the middle of the Tribulation, when the two witnesses are killed. It is when there are only 1260 days left of the Tribulation, when Satan is cast down to Earth, enters into the False Prophet and sits in the temple showing himself that he is God. That is why the woman (Israel) has to flee to the wilderness. After 3 1/2 days, the two witnesses, represented by the male child, are caught up to Heaven.

> I Corinthians 15:51-52, are some of the main verses to show the pre-tribulational Rapture:

> "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In
> a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET : for the trumpet shall sound,
> and the dead shall be raised incor-ruptible, and we shall be changed."

> First of all, notice that Paul says the dead will be raised and the living changed at
> the LAST TRUMPET. When does the Word of God say the last trumpet will sound?

> The book of Revelation answers this question for us. There are seven angels whose job
> it will be, to sound seven trumpets. The angels begin in Revelation 8:6, and continue
> until the last one is sounded in Revelation 11....

> The timing of the seventh trumpet or the LAST TRUMPET occurs when Jesus returns to the
> kingdom of the world to begin His reign. It is at this time that He will begin His
> judgement....

***I Cor. 14:51,52 is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Both Raptures take place before the seven trumpet judgments. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. The trumps OF GOD call the saints up. The seven trumpet judgments are sounded by ANGELS, not by God.

***There are seven months between the seventh trumpet judgment and the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12).

> (Revelation 14:14-15) This meeting in the CLOUDS takes place near the very end of the
> Tribulation period. Jesus is coming in the CLOUDS to gather in the whole HARVEST. This
> is the precise picture Paul was discussing in I Thessalonians 4. For further proof that
> this is so, notice the strong hint that Paul gave us in verses 15 and 17:

> "...we tell you that we who are still alive, WHO ARE LEFT till the coming of the Lord...
> ...After that, we who are still alive and WHO ARE LEFT will be caught up..."

> In both of these verses, Paul added the phrase: WHO ARE LEFT , or who remain. He could
> have just as easily left this out in both places. Unless...unless he was trying to
> convey something very important.

> The Greek for this phrase is: to leave all around, survive, or remain. By adding this
> phrase in both places, Paul was trying to convey: some will remain, some will survive,
> some will be left all around. Paul was implying that some would be taken previously
> to the time mentioned, and that those who had not been taken, but WHO REMAIN will be
> taken at this time.

> Through the Holy Spirit, Paul is implying that some will be taken earlier; and then
> those who were not taken earlier (but who remain) will be taken into the clouds to
> meet the Lord in the air.

> This is precisely the scenario that has been developed thus far in this book. Some are
> taken in the Rapture of the First Fruit believers at first, followed by the final
> harvest of all who remain at the very end.

> The First Fruits are taken to the throne of God in HEAVEN, while the general harvest is
> gathered in by the Lord when He returns on the CLOUDS at the very end.

***The Pre-Wrath Rapture is seven months before the Second Coming too. It takes place on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the two large asteroid pieces impact Earth at noon.

***He applies I Thess 4:13-18 to a Rapture at the "very end" of the Tribulation. I think it applies the the Pre-Trib Rapture before the first seal is broken to start the Tribulation. What comfort would be in those words if we had to endure the entire Tribulation?

> If all saints are to judge the world, and only the overcomers and martyrs are included
> in the first resurrection, then when are the rest of the saints raised?

> The only possible explanation is that they are resurrected at the end of the 1,000
> year Millennium....

***Oh! That's a funny one. On the first day of the Millennium, Christ starts his reign. In Heaven that day, first he receives his golden crown, then comes the Marriage of the Lamb. Next comes the Judgment Seat of Christ, after that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. At the Judgment Seat of Christ, it is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL and GREAT." I think "SMALL and GREAT" covers ALL the saints.

> This group of people must represent all those true born-again believers who were not
> found part of the first resurrection. Although they missed the 1,000 year reign with
> Christ, their names were found written in the book of life, and they were not thrown
> into the lake of fire....

> EXCLUDED FROM THE KINGDOM

> The Word of God does indicate that there will be Christians who do not enter into
> this 1,000 year reign with Christ:...

***I don't think so. Zech. 14:5 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE."

> ...After a person's spirit is saved, a battle begins for that person's soul. God wants
> to see the soul saved, but Satan and the person's flesh will try to see it destroyed.
> The Holy Spirit wants to save the person's soul, and the whole goal of one's faith
> should be the salvation of the soul:...

> "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

> The context of this verse is to believers since he was speaking to his disciples.
> Jesus is telling us it is possible for believers to lose their own soul.

***"for BELIEVERS to lose their own soul"??? I think not.

> The body of the carnal man is in a war with the spirit man for the soul. The spirit
> wants to save the soul, but the body wants to gratify itself. If the flesh wins the
> battle, then the soul is lost!...

> (Matthew 16:24-25(KJ) In order for the soul to be saved, the believer is required to
> deny himself and lose his own life for Christ's sake. In other words, the person who
> wants to save his soul must be willing to die to himself and take up the cross Christ
> gives him to bear. If the believer is unwilling to give up his own life for Christ's
> sake, he will treasure up worldly riches in exchange for his own soul.

> Remember, the salvation of the spirit is 100% free and impossible to earn by works. In
> the above teaching, however, Jesus is instructing the believer on how to save the soul.
> To save the soul, the believer has to perform certain works: deny self, take up his cross,
> and then follow Jesus. This could not be the salvation of the spirit because works are
> involved. Jesus was teaching on the salvation of the soul, and he wants to make sure the
> believer does save his soul....

***I sure got a funny picture of the spirit going to Heaven and the soul going to Hell, I feel like saying something to him like Paul said to the Galatians. In 3:1-3, he said, "O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth...Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" They needed to learn that the gift of the Spirit is by faith, not by works of the law. Jim needs to learn that faith in Christ saves us, totally, body, soul and spirit. If we lose our body in death, we will get it back at the Rapture. We will be saved--totally. Eph. 2:8-10 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

***We can't work for salvation at all. And after we are saved, the only thing we can work for is rewards, and to earn those, we must have agape love. I Cor. 13: 3 says, "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity (agape, God's love), it profiteth me nothing." God is love, and if we are filled with his Holy Spirit, we have his agape love. How do we get it? Not as the foolish Galatians thought, by works of the law. We get it by keeping our sins confessed (I Jn. 1:9). Then we are in fellowship with our Holy God.

***Our spirit KNOWS. I Cor. 2:11 says, "For what man KNOWETH the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him." The soul is the seat of our will, affections, desires, and emotions. Jesus said, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful" (Mt. 26:38). Our soul has self consciousness. Our spirit has God consciousness. Together with our world-conscious body, we are one human being.

***Heb. 10:38,29 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them THAT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." No work, our faith saves our soul. Agape

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Updated 10-13-99