Pro and Con 406
Incoming Email FWD: Does this ring true to you?
My reply ...NO! This sermon from Lyn Mize does NOT ring true. For someone who understands that we are saved by faith, but can work for rewards--oh my, oh my--did these things really come out of his brain? I am stunned to read,
> ...THE LIE that the Rapture will happen before the tribulation period
> and before Antichrist is revealed....
> The Rapture of the church is clearly and definitively stated by Paul to be in the
> MIDDLE of the tribulation period
I strongly disagree, and will intersperse my comments in his sermon notes.
> Strong Delusion to Believe THE LIE, by LynMize@aol.com
> ...(2 Th 2:10b-11 NIV) They perish because they refused to love the truth and s be saved.
> For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
> This passage of Scripture is one of the most misunderstood passages in the
> Bible. The first error that theologians make in interpreting this passage is
> to assume it is talking about spiritually unsaved people.
***Instead, it is Lyn's mistake. Just look carefully at the change of pronouns in II Thess. 2 (KJV) and see if it will support Lyn's theory.
"NOW WE (PAUL, Silvanus and Timotheus) beseech YOU, BRETHREN (believers, 'the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,' v.1), by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR (Paul included) gathering together unto him (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), That YE (believers) be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from US, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
The word 'Christ' here does not have good MSS support. DAY OF THE LORD does. "Virtually every ancient ms. reads the Lord," New Scofield. Also see SINAITIC CODEX, VATICAN CODEX, ALEXANDRINE CODEX, Griesvach, Lachman, Tischendorf, 8th ed., Tregalles, Alford, Wordsworth, RSV, Phillips, NEB, NIV, Concordant, Green's note, Jerusalem Bible, Confraternity, Berkeley, Amplified, Lamsa, and NASB.
"Let no man deceive YOU (believers) by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, as in Tyndale's translation, The Geneva Bible, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible, i.e., the Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin (the False Prophet) be revealed (SECOND), the son of perdition (only Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet are called sons of perdition); Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember YE not, that, when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things? And now YE know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (Old English for hindereth will hinder), until HE (the Holy Spirit indwelling believers) be taken out of the way (at the Rapture). And then (after the Rapture) shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Second Advent): Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN THEM THAT PERISH; because THEY received NOT the love of the truth, that THEY might be saved (i.e., THEY ARE UNSAVED). And for this cause God shall send THEM (the unsaved) strong delusion, that THEY (the unsaved) should believe a lie: That THEY (the unsaved) ALL might be damned WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
"But we (PAUL, Silvanus and Timotheus) are bound to give thanks alway to God for YOU, BRETHREN (believers) BELOVED OF THE LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen YOU to SALVATION through sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF OF THE TRUTH: Whereunto he called YOU by OUR gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, BRETHREN, STAND FAST, AND HOLD THE TRADITIONS WHICH YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether by word, or OUR epistle. Now OUR Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even OUR Father, which hath loved US, and hath given US everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, COMFORT YOUR hearts, and stablish YOU in every good word and work."
> This passage is addressing believers who are not open to the truth of the Word of God, and
> consequently lose their souls at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
***No BELIEVER can lose their soul--anywhere--any time. Heb. 10:39 says, "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that BELIEVE to the saving of the soul."
> ...Question 1: What is this lie that God would actually send out? Answer: Paul gives the
> subject of the lie in the first few verses of this subtopic. The subject of the lie
> pertains to the Second Coming of our Lord and the Rapture of the Church. The actual lie
> itself is that the entire Church will be Raptured before the tribulation begins.
***Is he contradicting himself? He said, "THE LIE that the Rapture will happen before the tribulation period and before Antichrist is revealed." To me, the word "entire" above changes the meaning. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture. The foolish Laodicean virgins are spewed out of his mouth. They, along with the Tribulation saints, will be caught up at the Pre-Wrath Rapture.
> Question 2: Who are the recipients of this lie or doctrinal error that comes from God?
> Answer: Paul identifies the recipients of this lie in verse three where he warns the
> Christians in Thessalonika against this deception. Consequently, the recipients of
> this lie are Christians.
***I think they are unsaved.
> Question 3: Why would God send out a lie to His own people, the Church, for
> them to be deceived?
***He wouldn't. He sends the delusion, not the lie. The Spirit of God is "the Spirit of TRUTH, which proceedeth from the Father" (Jn. 15:26). "Even the Spirit of TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I (Jesus, i.e., the Spirit of Christ) will come to you" (Jn. 14:17).
> Answer: Paul gives the answer to this question in verse 10 by stating that they did
> not love the truth and refused to receive it. Therefore, God sent them what they
> wanted and loved, THE LIE.
***II Thess. 2:11 says, "God shall send them (unbelievers) strong DELUSION, that they should believe a lie." It doesn't say God sent THE LIE. He sent the "DELUSION."
> I will now address the questions in more detail within the context of the passage of
> Scripture where the lie is mentioned. It is paradoxical that God would send out
> doctrinal error to His people, the Church, but the passage clearly explains the
> reason, which is the refusal of the Church to love the truth....
***The delusion is sent to unbelievers, not to his people, the Church.
> (2 Th 2:1 KJV) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
> and by our gathering together unto him,
> The issue in question is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together
> with him. Paul is addressing the brethren or Christians, and he actually beseeches or
> requests urgently that they pay close attention to what he is about to say about the
> coming of Jesus Christ to Rapture the Church.
> (2 Th 2:2 KJV) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit,
> nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
***It should be "that the day of the Lord is at hand. That was an error in the King James Translation. Most major MSS have day of the Lord, so do most English translations.
> (2 Th 2:3 KJV) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
> there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
> (2 Th 2:4 KJV) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that
> is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is
> God. (2 Th 2:5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
> The "day of Christ" in verse 2 above is the Rapture of the Church.
***"Virtually every ancient ms. reads the Lord." It is the Day of the Lord, which is the Millennium. The "falling away," or departure, is the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> This is confirmed by verse 1, which gives the definition of the "day of Christ".
***Actually, v. 1 does. The Day of Christ is the Rapture, and there are two Days of Christ (Lu. 17:22). One is as the days of Noah. The other is as the days of Lot (Lu. 17:22-29). Lu. 17:22 speaks of "one of the days (plural) of the Son of man."
> The meaning of a word or phrase in Scripture, as well as any writing, is
> determined by the context. The Thessalonians had been told that the Rapture
> had already occurred and they were in the day of the Lord.
***Therefore, the millennial Day of the Lord won't come until (1) the Rapture takes place and (2) the False Prophet has been revealed.
> Their belief that they were in the Day of the Lord meant that they had missed the
> Rapture, and they were now enduring the wrath of God. Paul wrote them to alleviate
> their fears and explain when the Rapture would occur. Paul very clearly and
> succinctly told the Thessalonians that the day of Christ (i.e., the Rapture)
***The Day of the Lord, the Millennium. "Virtually every ancient ms. reads the Lord."
> would not occur until three distinct and separate events occurred. These
> three events are the apostasy,
***Rather, it is the departure, the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> the revealing of Antichrist, and Antichrist establishing himself in the temple claiming
> to be God. The Rapture of the church is clearly and definitively stated by Paul to be
> in the middle of the tribulation period,
***I think the first Rapture is before the Tribulation.
***Not only is the first group of believers in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 before the Tribulation starts in Rev. 6, but Luke told us, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." This is the Pre-Trib Rapture.
***Dan. 12:1,2 speaks of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. He said, "AND at that time (when the False Prophet shall come to his end" (Dan. 11:45) shall Michael stand up; the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a TIME OF TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME: AND AT THAT TIME (Day of God's Wrath, Rev. 6:17) thy people shall be delivered (Rev. 7:14), EVERY ONE that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."
***This Day of God's Wrath is when the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth at noon. The Tribulation saints are caught up when the burning meteorites are already starting to fall (Rev. 6:13), as out of a fiery furnace. When the second trumpet sounds, the "great mountain burning with fire (one piece of the binary asteroid) was cast into the sea (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5) (Rev. 8:8). When the third sounds, "a great star (aster, asteroid) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" destroys Babylon (Rev. 8:10; 18:21). This time is worse than at any other point during the Great Tribulation. It all takes place on one day, the first of the millennial Day of the Lord.
> since this is the time that Antichrist will establish
> himself in the temple and claim to be God. Of course, Antichrist will reveal
> himself at the beginning of the tribulation, immediately after the "apostasy."
***That is a bad time, when the False Prophet sits in the temple and puts an idol there Mid-Trib. However, it is not the worst day since there was a nation. That can only the the Day of God's Wrath, the Day of Jacob's Trouble.
> ...It would be ludicrous for Paul to give the revealing of Antichrist as an event to
> watch for if the whole Church were going to be in heaven at the time.
> The apostasy is probably the most misunderstood event in the Bible, because of the gross
> mistranslation of the transliterated Greek word apostasia as "falling away." This same
> Greek word is used five times in the New Testament in Mark 10:4; Matt. 19:7; Matt. 5:31;
> Acts 21:21; and 2 Thess. 2:3. It is translated "divorcement" in the first three,
> "departure" in the fourth, and "falling away" in the fifth. Divorcement or departure
> would be an accurate translation, but falling away is completely without merit. A better
> translation according to the above Scriptures would be "separation."...
> An accurate paraphrase of 2 Thess. 2:3-5 is as follows: Let no man deceive you into thinking
> that the Rapture has already occurred, for the Rapture will not occur until the separation
> takes place, the Antichrist is revealed, and Antichrist presents himself as God by opposing
> God and exalting himself. Antichrist will even set himself up in the temple and present
> himself as God. Don't you remember that I told you these things when I was with you.
> Paul tells the Thessalonians that the Rapture has not occurred, and that it will not occur
> until after The Separation takes place and the Antichrist is revealed and sets himself up
> in the temple. All of the above information in the Scripture provides the truth about the
> Rapture of the Church....
***The separation or departure is the Pre-Trib Rapture of the wise virgins. They are taken to Heaven and separated from the foolish virgins, who are left behind until the Pre-Wrath Rapture.
> (2 Th 2:6 KJV) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
> In this verse Paul summarizes what he has just stated in the preceding verses. He has
> told them about the Separation of faithful Christians before Antichrist is revealed.
***That much is true. The wise virgins go with the Bridegroom at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The foolish virgins are separated. Christ spews them out of his mouth because they are lukewarm Laodiceans without "white raiment" (Rev. 3:15-18).
> He then states that they now know what is restraining evil. The following verse firmly
> identifies that which is restraining evil, as it will continue to restrain evil until it
> is taken out of the way. Then evil will be allowed to run rampant upon the earth. The
> restrainer is those Christians who will be removed at the time of the Separation.
***The restrainer is the Holy Spirit in the Christian salt shaker. The restraining will be stopped at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Then the False Prophet can be revealed when he confirms the covenant.
> ...(2 Th 2:7 KJV) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who
> now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
> Paul continues to explain the Separation by saying that the mystery of evil is continuing to
> work, but that which restrains evil or hinders its progression will continue to operate until
> it is taken out of the way. In other words, the faithful Christians who have not lost their
> savor will continue to restrain evil in the world until these faithful Christians are
> removed from the earth at the time of the Separation or the Firstfruits Rapture.
***They will restrain evil until the Pre-Trib Rapture. Here is what will happen at the separation that takes place at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one, v. 42,45) will come in a day when he looketh not for him (when he isn't watching as Jesus commanded), and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the shortened 2300-day Tribulation, Dan. 8:14) with the unbelievers."
> The whole context of this passage of Scripture pertains to the Separation of
> the faithful ones who restrain evil by being like salt , and when they are
> gone, the Wicked One (i.e., Antichrist) will be revealed....
***True enough as stated here. After the Pre-Trib Rapture, the False Prophet will be revealed.
> (2 Th 2:8 KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with
> the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: This verse
> continues the pronouncement that Antichrist will only be revealed after the restrainer
> has been removed from the earth. It is the Holy Spirit that does the removing and not
> the one who is removed. This is one of the biggest errors in Biblical understanding
> today to think that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.
***This is not true. The salt of the Earth restrain evil because the Holy Spirit is within them. When the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, both the Beast and the False Prophet can be revealed.
***Some people have said that the Holy Spirit can't go away because people will be saved in the Tribulation. They forget that God is omnipresent. God is spirit, Jn. 4:24). The Spirit of God is omnipresent. He will just quit restraining the False Prophet for the sake of the Pre-Trib Rapture saints.
> This is actually part of the lie that God sends out to those who do not love the truth,
> but prefer to believe THE LIE that the Rapture will happen before the tribulation period
> and before Antichrist is revealed.
***It is NOT A LIE. It is the truth. The first Rapture is before the Tribulation and before the False Prophet is Revealed.
> (2 Th 2:9 KJV) Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all
> power and signs and lying wonders,
> This verse continues the description of Antichrist as the one whose coming is after the
> working of Satan with power, signs and lying wonders. The word for working means superhuman
> power, and the signs and lying wonders are supernatural and from Satan himself.
***The second beast of Rev. 13:11-18 is the one that "spake as a dragon." He is the one that "doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven in the earth in the sight of men."
> (2 Th 2:10 KJV) And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that
> perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
> This verse confirms that the coming of Antichrist will be the grandest
> deception of mankind since Satan deceived Eve in the Garden of Eden. The New
> International Version translates this passage very well as follows:
> (2 Th 2:10 NIV) and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are
> perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
> "Those who are perishing" are those Christians who are not faithful.
***They are perishing because they are NOT Christians. They are unbelievers who "refused to love the truth and so be saved." They are not saved.
> They are not faithful because they do not love the truth clearly set forth in the
> above Scriptures about the Separation, the identity of the restrainer, and
> the fact that numerous Christians will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
***Not one Christian will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ. We will be there for rewards or lack of rewards. Those that build gold, silver, precious stones on the foundation of Christ will receive rewards. Those that build wood, hay or stubble will not receive rewards for those works. Yet, they themselves will be saved, so as by fire (I Cor. 3:15). Our destiny was decided at the moment we accepted Christ. We were born again, born into God's family, and there is no way to get unborn.
> The salvation is the salvation of the soul and not the salvation of the spirit.
***The spirit does not go to Heaven and the soul to Hell. If we are saved, we are saved as a whole person, not split apart, making a second salvation necessary. It is the soul that exercises its will and makes the decision to accept Christ. At that moment, our dormant spirit is kindled to life. The soul made the decision. The soul is saved....
> ...It becomes clear that God has sent the effectual working doctrinal error to the Church
> for the simple reason that the Church prefers to believe this error over the truth of the
> Word of God. The Church has even interpreted this passage of Scripture as referring to the
> spiritually unsaved during the tribulation period, but the truth is that it refers to
> the majority of Christians in the Church today.
***The unsaved are to receive this delusion after the Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place.
> The doctrinal error is that the entire Church will be raptured before the tribulation
> period starts, and no Christian will suffer any under the persecution of Antichrist.
***The truth is that the wise Philadelphian virgins will be raptured before the Tribulation starts. The foolish Laodicean virgins will suffer chastisement during the Tribulation (Rev. 3:19).
> Just as Paul stated in this passage of Scripture, this "powerful delusion" is rampant in
> the Church and the great majority of the Church is deceived....Will those in the Church
> who have believed this error be responsible for their beliefs? Absolutely, as the following
> Scripture states that they will be judged and punished for believing this error.
> (2 Th 2:12 KJV) That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
> but had pleasure in unrighteousness....
***This is talking to unbelievers.
> This is exactly what is going to happen to Christians who refuse to believe the truth about
> the Separation or Firstfruits Rapture of those faithful Christians who have not lost their
> The teaching about the Rapture of the entire Church before the tribulation period comes
> from God through the great majority of pastors and teachers in the Church today.
***There are two Raptures. One is the group seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. They are in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. They are the ones who are "accounted worthy to escape all these things" (Lu. 21:36). The foolish virgins and Laodiceans are left behind for chastisement because they did not repent and confess their sins to God. They are out of fellowship with God and do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit. However, they will be caught up with the Tribulation saints in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. This group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14, between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals....
***Now that you know what Lyn calls the lie, lets see what the lie might really be. Satan is the father of lies. John 8:44 says, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murder from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
***The False Prophet will be Satan possessed when Satan is cast out of Heaven down to the Earth Mid-Trib. He will enter into the False Prophet and lose no time getting to the temple. He "as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). I think this claiming to be God has a whole lot better chance of really being the lie.
Incoming Email ...Hope all is well with you and your family. I am praying for you. As I read your answers to the incoming posts, I marvel at your tenacity and thoroughness; the Lord blessed you with a penetrating mind. Looking forward to meeting you in glory. In His Love
My reply ...Thanks for your kind remarks. It is all the Lord's doing. I have a built in curiosity and want to know everything. Some people believe anything they see in print. Not me. That is just what that writer thought. I examine it for accuracy automatically.
Incoming Email FWD: Maine Gets Taste of Y2K Glitch
By DAVID SHARP, Associated Press Writer, 10/12/99 PORTLAND, Maine (AP)
State government got its first Y2K surprise months early when owners of 2000 model cars and trucks received titles identifying their new vehicles as "horseless carriages." :-)
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