Pro and Con 410

Uploaded 10-21-99

Incoming Email

...I do enjoy reading your pro's and con's.

The 7 good & 7 bad years taken from the life of Joseph tell us what to look for. Is there any meaning in the year Joseph was married and the year his children were born?

Is the life of Jacob connected to the return of Christ. He worked 7 years for his first wife and 7 years for his second wife and six years for the cattle. Did he marry both women at the end of the first 7 years or did he wait till the 14th year to marry his second wife? Do you see anything in the 6 years labor for the cattle?

My reply

...Glad you like the Pro and Cons.

> Is there any meaning in the year Joseph was married and the year his children were born?

There probably is. Joseph, the rejected one, whose name Zaphnath-paaneah means, in Egyptian, Saviour of the world, is a type of Christ. Zaphneth-paaneah also means, in Coptic, revealer of secret things, a potent clue. He was given a Gentile bride, Asenath, a type of the Gentile church, given to Christ as a heavenly bride while he is still rejected by his brethren, as Joseph was. Joseph was married when he was 30 (Gen. 41:45,46). His sons were born during the seven good years. Gen. 41:50-53 says, "unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came....Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh...And the name of the second called Ephraim...And the seven years of plenteousness, that was in the land of Egypt, were ended."

In our days, if we start with the Sign of the End of the Age in 5728 (1967/1968) and add 30 years, we come to 5758 (1997/1998). The birth of Mannasseh might correspond with 5759 (1998/1999) and the birth of Ephraim to 5760 (1999/2000), when our seven years of plenty are ended, but I can't be sure.

Note: Jesus was about 30 when he turned water to wine on the third day at the Marriage in Cana of Galilee. However, he said, "mine hour is not yet come." When he comes for his Bride, the hour for the Marriage of the Lamb has not yet come. That will be on the first day of the Millennium, but think about this: 1967 + 30 + 3 = 2000. Galilee means circle, a good picture to suggest the heavenly disk.

"Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age" when baptized (Lu. 3:23). The wedding at Cana was on the third day (John 2:1). Could this suggest years, 5758, 5759, and 5760?

> Is the life of Jacob connected to the return of Christ.

I think so. He was married when 40 years old. The Sign of the End of the Age in 1967 + 40 = 2007, when I think the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on Tishri 1, Sept, 13, 2007.

> He worked 7 years for his first wife and 7 years for his second wife and six years for
> the cattle. Did he marry both women at the end of the first 7 years or did he wait
> till the 14th year to marry his second wife? Do you see anything in the 6 years labor
> for the cattle?

Jacob worked 7 yrs. for his first wife and 7 yrs. for his second. If Rapture I is in 2000, 2000 + 7 = 2007, when I think the second Rapture will be. That ties in nicely with the 7 good years and the 7 bad years. The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. 1993 + 7 = 2000. 2000 + 7 = Sept. 13, 2007. The Oslo Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel, on Tishri 1. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007.

I think Jacob served 7 years, got Leah for a wife, served 7 more years, and got Rachel for a wife. Gen. 29:27,28 says, "thou shalt serve with me YET seven other years. And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel." This fits taking the Church as a heavenly bride after 7 years and taking Israel as an earthly bride after another 7 years. I don't know what the 6 years might tie in with.

Incoming Email

I have a question after reading "some" our your material posted on your web page.  How does the rebuilding of the temple play in all this.  As far as I know the temple is not rebuilt, and if the rapture marks the beginning of the tribulation, 3 1/2 years later the anti-christ steps in the temple and declares himself god.  When will the temple be built in your estimated time line?

My reply

I think there is a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Tribulation. The Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand. In Rev. 17:12, the 10 kings have received no kingdom as yet at the time of the Rapture. When the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, all 10 kings are crowned.

It seems that there must be a temple there at the beginning of the Tribulation because of Rev. 11:1. The Final Status Agreement is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. It may give the Jews the right to build a temple next to the Dome of the Rock, where some think it was in the first place, with the Holy of Holies over the spot where the small Dome of the Tablets is now.

I expect the covenant to be confirmed on the following Pentecost, in 2001, by the Beast and the False Prophet.

Incoming Email

Marilyn there is something i am missing about the raptures and maybe you can explain it. At the first rapture (pre trib) jesus meets us in the air. The next coming he plants his feet on the mountain. what does he do at the pre wrath rapture, and what good does it do to mark the 144,000 if he is rapturing them? why not just take them like the pre tribs? agape

My reply

At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, ALL his saints are gathered for the Judgment Seat of Christ. Then "shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (gathering those that have been caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture plus those that have died in Christ since).

This is seven months (Eze. 39:12) BEFORE the Second Advent, when his feet touch down on the Mt. of Olives.

The reason the 144,000 are marked seems to be to show us that the Church does NOT get to usurp all of Israel's promises, as some think. What God promised Israel, Israel will get. What God promised the Church, the Church will get. Israel can not be written off. She has a future.

BTW, the word "usurp" is from "usu" and "RAPERE," TO SEIZE BY FORCE. "Rapid" is also from "RAPERE," TO SEIZE, SWEEP AWAY AT A FAST RATE OF MOTION, SWIFTLY. There is a definite connection to Rapture, from "RAPTUS." My Latin Bible has "rapiemir" for the Greek "harpazo," caught up, in I Thess. 4:17. "Harpazo" means to catch up by force. No wonder Christ said he would come quickly. He will take us away quickly too. Get ready for a thrill ride.

The 144,000 are also marked to keep them from being killed because the rocks are already beginning to fall (Rev. 6:13). Read Eze. 9. The slayers followed the man clothed with linen putting a mark upon the foreheads of the ones that were to be saved.

The seven trumpet judgments are to hit Earth at noon the same day that Rapture II takes place. Like Lot, the Tribulation saints get out, then the fire falls the same day. Lu. 17:29,30 says, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED." The SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN of Mt. 24:30 appears in the sky when the smoky atmosphere is rolled away like a scroll that day (Rev. 6:14). Men will say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne (I think he gets his golden crown that day), and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his Wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16,17).

After Rapture II, the seventh seal is broken to release the seven trumpet judgments on Earth. Those saints get out as if out of the fiery furnace, as Daniel's friends showed us--UNHURT. Agape

Incoming Email

It seems that Satan is trying to sift you as wheat because you strengthen the brethren so much, but we are praying for you!

I was wondering - what would be the absolute minimum requirements for the Jews to resume animal sacrifices? Must the temple be built? What other obstacles, if any, would have to be overcome? In His Love

My reply

I think we all are being sifted and sure do appreciate all the prayers in our behalf. When things hit, I always think, "What next?" and keep walking. We just have to trust the Lord to get us through. Without him we can do nothing.

The altar must be there for sacrifices. In Ezra's days, "when the seventh month (TISHRI 1) was come, and the children of Israel were in the cities, the people gathered themselves together as one man to Jerusalem. Then stood up JESHUA (saviour) the son of Jozadak, and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and his brethren, and builded the ALTAR of the God of Israel, to offer BURNT-OFFERINGS thereon...They kept also the feast of tabernacles...From the first day of the seventh month began they to offer burnt-offering unto the LORD. But the foundation of the temple of the LORD was not yet laid....Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God," they laid the foundations of the temple (Ezra 3:1-11).

This may be a hint that the altar of Earth will be hit by fire on Tishri 1 (in 2007). I think Tabernacles will be kept right after that.

Rev. 11:1,2 has to be taken into consideration. It says, "AND there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles; and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months" (the first half of the Tribulation).

If the temple is built beside the Dome of the Rock, it would make sense that the court would be given unto the Gentiles. It would also make sense for the Gentiles to tread the city under foot during the Beast's reign of 42 months.

If the Final Status Agreement of Sept. 13, 2000, gives Israel the right to rebuild the temple, construction might begin immediately and the first sacrificing take place on the following Pentecost, when the Beast and False Prophet probably will confirm the covenant. The time that the Jews sacrifice plus the time that they don't because the temple is defiled Mid-Trib is 2300 days (Dan. 8:14), I think from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

Incoming Email

I have one more question of you. I have always believed in pre-trib rapture, (at least that is what I have been taught), However I am still confused by your publication that suggests two raptures. I am not sure where you find that in scripture.

In addition, as of late, I am beginning to believe that the rapture may occur mid-trib. Let me explain. God as promised never to pour His wrath out on the people of the earth again. (After Noah.) The first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation is not God causing and inflecting pain and suffering, but man (or Satan) doing it to himself. The second half of the tribulation is God's doing. Oh course there are other items I am at a loss for right now, but would like your comments on that also. Thank you for responding.

My reply

The Day of God's Wrath is only one day, the first day of the Millennium, the Feast of Trumpets. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." It is the day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on unbelievers left on Earth. The saints in heaven will receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ at the same time the unbelievers on earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief (Rev. 11:18).

The two trumpet calls for the saints are trumps of God. The seven trumpet judgments are sounded by angels.

In Nu. 10:2-4, God had Moses make "TWO TRUMPETS OF SILVER...for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both) ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., elders, Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." These are types of the trumps of God.

FIRST "TRUMP OF GOD," I Thess. 4:13-18
Pre-Trib Rapture
For the Bride of Christ, wise virgins (Mt. 25:1-12), Philadelphians (Rev. 3:8)
"out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," Rev. 5:9
Probably on Pentecost, Song of Sol. 2:10-14
Before the Tribulation starts when the first seal breaks in Rev. 6
As the days of Noah, water falls

"LAST TRUMP" OF GOD, "ALL," I COR. 15:51,52
Pre-Wrath Rapture
For the remainder of the Body of Christ, foolish virgins (I Cor. 3:12), Laodiceans
"of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," Rev. 7:9
On the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17), the Feast of Trumpets (Joel 2:1-3)
Before the Wrath of God is poured out when the seventh seal breaks in Rev. 8
As the days of Lot, "same day...it rained fire and brimstone from heaven" (Lu. 17:29)

The two witnesses are resurrected and caught up to God 3 1/2 days past Mid-Trib. They are killed the same day that Satan is cast out of Heaven and down to the Earth. He enters into the False Prophet, sits in the temple showing himself that he is God, sets up the idol and kills Moses and Elijah because they will not worship him or his idol. He rules during the last half of the Tribulation. The Day of God's Wrath does not come until after the sixth seal is broken (Rev. 6:12,17) as the last day of this age ends and the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord begins.

On that day, the False Prophet will be deposed from office as the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10 destroy civilization as we know it and stop the army under Gog that is invading Israel. Dan. 11:45; 12:1,2 says, "he (the False Prophet) shall come to his end, and none shall help him. AND at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (Day of Jacob's Trouble) thy people (including the 144,000 of Rev. 7) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." Agape

Incoming Email

...Your web page has been quite an ispiration and eye opener for me and I appreciate it alot. Thanks for your time and persaverence as I have watched you set many straight and without any contempt added.

1) How do we get B.C. 4044 as the literal beginning of the present Earth timetable?

***From Marilyn: We get BC 4044 from the chronological information given in the Bible, starting with Adam and ending with the Crucifixion. See my Chronology at: http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/chron.html

2) You have many Bible translations. What would be a good avenue to collect some or all of these translations? Could you give a list of the most notable?

***I check used book stores and thrift stores. Bible Book House in Fullerton, CA, has both new and used. The Yorba Linda, CA, library has a used book store in the basement. Look for similar outlets in your area. See if you have an discount outlet (Christian Discount Books) that handles books reprinted by Associated Publishers and Authors, Inc. (Grand Rapids, MI 49315). Those are exceptional bargains, and new. They also have other discounted books.

***I take what I find, any Bible that I don't already have. Strong's Concordance is a must. As for Bibles after the KJV, Green's Interlinear Hebrew Greek-English Bible would be my first choice, the Septuagint next. Those were my major money outlays. I had to buy the NASB and Jerusalem Bible new and replace my Scofield I Bible that wore out (it is pretty tattered now too, but I keep using it for I know where many marked verses appear on the page in that one). Most of the others, I got used. The best bargain was the new, reg. $79, New Scofield Reference Bible, flexible, goldleaf-edged, in the original box for $10--below the YL library. Thin paged, it is not good as an everyday study Bible, but I carry it with me to church. Some used copies I found for only $2. Someone really nice sent me the Tischendorf NT. I bought Thayer's and Gesenius' Lexicons at Christian Discount Books. I also check out any Bibles I can find in libraries and read them too. That is why I can't say exactly how many I have read. I know I have read what is on my shelf+.

***I wish I had the whole OT Concordant Literal Bible (Concordant Publishing Concern, 15570 W. Knochaven Rd., Canyon Country, CA 91351). They try to be as literal as possible even if it sounds a bit stilted in English. I have the NT plus Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Ezekiel and the Minor Prophets. When I got them, that was all that was available. Jeremiah and Daniel would be especially nice to have if they are available now.

***Other than Green's and the LXX, when I want a different viewpoint for comparison, I seem to grab the Jerusalem Bible, the Berekely Bible and the NEB first. On certain verses, I look that verse up in every one I have.

3) "He that hinereth will hindereth until He is taken out of the way". Could you please help my confusion on this matter? If the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (the first rapture) then how can there be a second set of Christians (the tribulation saints and the second rapture)?. Do the tribulation saints get saved and operate without the indwelt Holy Spirit or is there some sort of a change in operations after the first rapture? I hope I worded the question right. You might have to "read between the lines" to get what I am thinking.

***The KJV of II Thess. 2:7 says, "he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." That is Old English for he who now hindereth will hinder." With the Holy Spirit of God, who is always omnipresent, there is no problem concerning dealing with the Tribulation saints. He can take us to Heaven and still indwell the foolish virgins. He will just quit hindering the appearing of the False Prophet. I think the foolish virgins should repent, thus opening the door to let Christ "come in to him" (Rev. 3:20). Many of them are quenching the Holy Spirit and trying to operate on only the sealing. That will get them into Heaven, but they could have so much more, including escaping the Tribulation.

4) The DAYS of the Son of Man: I never noticed it was plural (neat). I do have a question though: What do you do with LU 17:30? The word DAY there is singular. Verse 30 seems to be in context with the earlier verses in this chapter. Why plural and then singular within the same context?

***In Lu. 17:26, it is talking about the first Rapture, and at that point there are two "days of the Son of Man" set before us. Then verses 29 and 30 say, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the DAY when the Son of man is revealed." At this point, only one Day of Christ is left, the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

***At the Pre-Trib Rapture, it is The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the wise Philadelphian virgins. To the world, he is hidden in the clouds.

***When Christ is revealed to the WORLD is the first day of the Millennium. The people will look up when the clouds are rolled away like a scroll (Rev. 6:14), see the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30, and say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16,17). This is when the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place (Rev. 7:14), between the breaking of the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) and the seventh seal (Rev. 8), before the seven trumpet judgments begin to sound. The asteroids do not impact Earth till noon that day (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23: Amos 8:9; Eze. 25:16).

5) Is there a prophetic example found in scripture, probably the old testament, that show the first and second raptures within the dealing of The Lord with Isreal? Did The Lord deal with Isreal in this way at any time?

***Yes. The spies went into the Promised Land with Joshua/Jesus ahead of the Israelites who went into the Promised Land with Joshua/Jesus at the end of 40 years of probation.

***Micah acted the part of a Tribulation saint when he said, "WOE is me! for I am as (symbolic language) when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage (Tishri): there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit (the spies went in at the time of the firstripe grapes, i.e., near Ascension Day and Pentecost). The good man is perished (abad, escaped) out of the earth."

6) Concerning the two raptures: What happens to the saints of the past who have died, in or out of fellowship with Christ? Do the dead in felowship get resurrected in the first rapture and then the dead out of fellowship get it in the second? If they all get resurrected in the first this would seem to nullify the reward of the present living and watching saints who are found worthy to escape all in the first rapture.

***God is fair. There are ranks (tagmati) in the first resurrection (I Cor. 15:23). I expect those who deserve to be the Bride of Christ to get their resurrection bodies at the Pre-Trib Rapture, the rest to wait until the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Agape

Again, Thanks!

Incoming Email

Re: Rapture timing:
Grace to you and peace. Although it is true that no man can know the hour of the rapture, the Scriptures teach us that we "are not in darkness, that the day should overtake [us] like a thief." Therefore, since Jesus taught us that the rapture cannot occur until after the tribulation of antichrist -- that is, we shall meet the Lord in the air on the day of His return ("the great and terrible day of the Lord") to begin the wrath of God on those who choose the mark of the beast -- we can begin looking for the rapture sometime (perhaps 30-42 months) after antichrist declares himself to be god and institutes his tribulation on the church. Yes, a small number of the faithful will be kept from the tribulation, but the majority of the church is not totally faithful -- it is a compromising church -- and will undergo "fiery testing."

I believe that watching for the rapture is important -- as long as we don't so it instead of the Great Commission -- but understanding that the rapture cannot occur until the day of the Lord's return can help us to focus our attention on events which must occur prior to the rapture. Indeed, we must survive the tribulation of antichrist before we are raptured. The rapture, then, will be "for the sake of the elect," to take us into the air with the Lord, so that we are not here when the "day of the Lord" wrath begins. The tribulation will be terrible. Indeed, there will be perhaps a billion Christians martyred then. But it will pale before God's wrath on antichrist and his people. I suggest VanKampen's "The Sign" for detailed study. God bless you and yours

My reply

> Jesus taught us that the
> rapture cannot occur until after the tribulation of antichrist --

JESUS DID NOT TEACH US THIS! In Rev. 5:9, we see a group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" in Heaven BEFORE THE FIRST SEAL IS BROKEN IN REV. 6 TO START THE TRIBULATION.

II Thess. 2:2 in the KJV is misleading. It has "day of Christ," which is the Rapture, but most major MSS have "day of the Lord" I have already written about this on Pro and Con 341, which I will copy here for you. (omitted)

> we shall meet the Lord in the air on the day of His return ("the
> great and terrible day of the Lord")

Christ does not even return on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. He returns SEVEN MONTHS LATER. In Eze. 38:18,19, we see that the attack on Israel is on the Day of God's Wrath. In v. 20, the mountains (asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10) shall be thrown down ('like a ball,' Isa. 22:18). There is the worldwide earthquake. Every wall shall fall to the ground. All "the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence" (paniym, FACE, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 is seen). Paniym is translated as face 356 times. Eze. 20:35 uses paniym twice, "there will I plead with you FACE to FACE." It is not presence to presence, but "FACE to FACE."

When men see the smoke rolled aside like a scroll just before the asteroids hit, they say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come. Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

> we can begin looking for the rapture sometime (perhaps 30-42 months) after
> antichrist declares himself to be god and institutes his tribulation on the church.

The one that sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" in II Thess. 2:3-9 is not the first beast of Rev. 13. He is THE Wicked One, "THAT man of sin," "THE son of perdition" "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." He is the Satan indwelt False Prophet that does not come to full power until Satan is cast down to Earth and indwells him in the middle of the Tribulation. THEN, he goes to sit in the temple. "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast (the first one)" (Rev. 13:13,14).

> understanding that the rapture cannot occur until the day of the Lord's return can
> help us to focus our attention on events which must occur prior to the rapture.
> Indeed, we must survive the tribulation of antichrist before we are raptured.

There are no prophecies "which must occur prior to the rapture." I don't know about you, but I fully intend to "be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN" (Lu. 21:36). Agape

Incoming Email

Could you please define Olivet Discourse for me.

My reply

Take a look at Mt. 24:3: "And as he sat upon the MOUNT OF OLIVES, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (age)." That starts the Olivet Discourse, so called because he was on the Mount of Olives.

   Pro and Con 411   Or Return  Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 10-21-99