Pro and Con 412

Uploaded 10-24-99

Note: If the 40 years between 30 and 70 AD, are a type of the 40 years between 1967 and 2007, and I think they are, we are probably going to see some more signs. Think of all the strange things that happened to Jerusalem in 66 AD, FOUR YEARS before their destruction.

In 66 AD, on Nisan 8, at 3 AM, "so brilliant a light shone around the altar and the inner temple that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for the space of half an hour." After that, the light removed itself from the site of the Temple. At Passover, "the eastern gate of the inner court at the sixth hour of the night (midnight) opened of its own accord. This gate was of brass and very large and heavy, seeing that when it was closed each evening it took twenty men to shut it. It had bolts sunk to a great depth into a threshold made of a solid block of stone." Then on the following "PENTECOST, the priests on entering the inner court of the temple at nightfall, as their custom was in the accomplishment of their ministrations, stated that they first became aware of a commotion and a roar, and after that THE VOICE OF A GREAT MULTITUDE SAYING 'WE ARE DEPARTING HENCE'" (Josephus, Wars, VI.V.3).

Hope we depart hence next Pentecost. Time is getting short.

Incoming Email

Mary, I had just noticed when reading back over your letter that you say the seven years of the seventieth week of Dan 9 coincide with Rev 12:6 and 14 (These are speaking of the same period, not two periods)

Rev 12:6 ,14 are both speaking of the same 3 1/2 year period.  How is it that anyone can add the same period together and come up with seven?  It's because that you must do that in order for the bible to fit with your preconceived assumptions.

You say the seventieth week is yet unfulfiled, and that Christ did not even die within the time frame of the prophecy.

I find no scriptural or even logical reason to split a time prophecy up, and to insert twenty centuries into to it, for it totally destroys any reason for there even being a time given.

My reply

Sorry. I must not have made myself clear. The seven-year Tribulation is split into two 1260-day portions. 1260 days = 42 months = 3.5 years = a time, times and half a time.

The Beast is made head of both the World Church and the World Government. I think he will be the Tribulation Pope. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life" (Rev. 13:8).
Rev. 13:5: "and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev. 11:3: "I will give power unto my two witnesses (Moses and Elijah), and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

The False Prophet is made head of both the World Church and the World Government. Thus he too becomes a Pope.
Rev. 12:6 and 14 are two ways of stating the 1260-days, or 3.5 years, of the last half of the seven-year Tribulation.
At the beginning of the second 1260 days, Satan is cast out of Heaven down to Earth (Rev. 12:9).
The 1260-days date from the first day the False Prophet becomes Satan possessed, sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4) and places an idol, the abomination of desolation at the temple.
Daniel 12:7: "it shall be for a time, times, and an half." This ties in with Rev. 12:14's "Time, and times, and half a time," which is the same as the 1260 days of Rev. 12:6.

> You say the seventieth week is yet unfulfiled

That's right. The seventieth week cannot begin until the Beast (Rev. 13:2-10) and False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-18) confirm the covenant. It is very likely to be the Final Status Peace Agreement that is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. The Beast and False Prophet will confirm it with many, probably the World Government, soon thereafter, probably on the following Pentecost.

Dan. 9:27 says, "And he ('the prince [False Prophet] that shall come,' whose people [Romans] destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD) shall CONFIRM THE COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK (7 years): and in the midst of the week (as the second 1260 days begin) he (the False Prophet, now head over the Roman Church that has become the Catholic [meaning Universal] World Church) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (by sitting in the temple shewing himself that he is God), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he (the False Prophet) shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation (of the second 1260 days), and that determined (at the Judgment of the Nations, when the second 1260 days ends) shall be poured upon the desolate (lit., desolator, the Satan-indwelt False Prophet)." Armageddon follows the Judgment of the Nations, when dominion is taken away from Satan. At Armageddon's end, Satan is chained for 1000 years (Rev.20:2,3) and the Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 19:20).

After the 1000 years, Satan is released for a little season. Then "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are" (Rev. 20:10).

> and that Christ did not even die within the time frame of the prophecy.

He wasn't supposed to. Dan. 9:26 says, "And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (karath, killed), but not for himself (for us)."

The clock measuring Theocratic Years stopped when they killed the Messiah. They were out of fellowship with the Lord.

> I find no scriptural or even logical reason to split a time prophecy up, and to insert
> twenty centuries into to it, for it totally destroys any reason for there even being a
> time given.

The Lord goes by his own logical reasons, not ours. He didn't want it to be too easy to figure out. You have to understand Isa. 28:13. It says, "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE; THAT THEY MIGHT GO, AND FALL BACKWARD, AND BE BROKEN, AND SNARED, AND TAKEN."

When you work on Bible chronology, you find that when Israel was in fellowship with the Lord, the clock counting Theocratic Years was running. When Israel was out of fellowship, the clock stopped.

Here is a section from my Bible Chronology. The years of the servitudes = 114 years that are omitted from the 480 listed in I Kings 6:1.

2573 AH Beginning 1st servitude under Chushan after 13 years (Jg 3:8) (Joshua-Judges chasm: there are 13 years between the end of the book of Joshua and the beginning of Judges. Joshua and the elders ruled 13 years.)
2581 AH Rest by Othniel after 8 years servitude under Chushan-rishathaim (Jg 3:8)
2621 AH 2nd servitude under Eglon after 40 years of rest by Othniel (Jg 3:11)
2639 AH Rest by Ehud after 18 years of servitude under Eglon (Jg 3:14)
2719 AH 3rd servitude under Jabin after 80 years of rest by Ehud (Jg 3:30)
2739 AH Rest by Barak after 20-year servitude under Jabin
Judgeship of Shamgar (Jg 3:31) included in 20 years of 3rd servitude under Jabin (Jg 5:6,7)
2779 AH 4th servitude under Midian after 40-year rest by Barak (Jg 5:31)
2786 AH Rest by Gideon after 7-year servitude under Midian (Jg 6:1)
2826 AH Usurpation by Abimelech after 40-year rest by Gideon (Jg 8:28)
2829 AH Judgeship of Tola after 3-year usurpation by Abimelech (Jg 9:22)
2852 AH Judgeship of Jair after 23-year Judgeship of Tola (Jg 10:2)
2874 AH 5th servitude under Ammon after 22-year judgeship of Jair (Jg 10:3)
2892 AH Judgeship of Jephthah after 18-year servitude under Ammon (Jg 10:8)
2898 AH Judgeship of Ibzan after 6-year Judgeship of Jephthah (Jg 12:7,8)
2905 AH Judgship of Elon after 7-year Judgeship of Ibzan (Jg 12:9)
2915 AH Judgeship of Abdon after 10-year Judgeship of Elon (Jg 12:11)
2923 AH 6th servitude under Philistines after 8-year Judgeship of Abdon (Jg 12:14)
(Judgeship of Samson 20 years (Jg 16:31) incl. in 40 years of 6th servitide) (Jg 15:20)
2963 AH Judgeship of Eli after 40-year servitude under Philistines (Jg 15:20)
3003 AH Judgeship of Samuel after 40-year Judgeship of Eli (I Sam 4:18).
3023 AH End of the period of the Judges

The 480 theocratic years--God's clock running: I Kings 6:1 says, "AND it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif (Iyar 2, II Chronicles 3:2), which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD." These 480 years were Theocratic. The remainder of the years constituted the periods during which Israel was out of fellowship with God. Hence these were not Theocratic years. God's clock stops when Israel is out of fellowship.

Israel will not show much fruit as the Tribulation begins. However, God will again be dealing with Israel to bring them to himself. The Tribulation is the culmination of the Age of the Jews. The prophecies written about the seven years will come true right down the line. The nation will be born in a day on the Day of God's Wrath (Isa. 66:8). At that time, the army under Gog (Eze. 38) will attack Israel. They will be unable to help themselves and will finally turn to God. They will blow the alarm on the trumpet and God will fight their battle for them. The remnant will be saved personally and saved nationally on that day.

Incoming Email

I was wondering if you could read this and tell me what you think.
The Premillennial Problem

...Does Scripture indicate that Christ will come before (premillennial) the thousand years of Revelation 20, or after (postmillennial)? If it can be shown through Scripture that Christ is to come back prior to the thousand years, then the postmillennial system will be greatly weakened.

***From Marilyn: The Rapture of the Bride of Christ is before the Tribulation (Lu. 21:36; Rev. 3:10). The Rapture of the Tribulation saints is 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12). Rapture II is on the Day of God's Wrath (Rev. 6:17; 7:14). The Second Advent is the following Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21), the beginning of the Jewish Regnal Year. The first resurrection is in ranks, "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (I Cor. 15:23).

***In Rev. 18, Babylon is destroyed on the Day of God's Wrath. In Rev. 19, Christ returns on a white horse as "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." All his saints are with him. Zech 14:5 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and ALL THE SAINTS with thee." Armageddon follows. The Beast and False Prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire. In Rev. 20:2 Satan is bound for "a thousand years." During this 1000 years Christ and his saints reign. All the saints are part of the first resurrection, and they are raised in two groups, one before the Tribulation and one the first day of the Millennium, "and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).

Likewise, if it can be shown that Christ is to come back following the thousand years, then the premillennial system can no longer stand by its own presuppositions either. Therefore, the scope then of this brief paper will be to identify how the premillennial system falters when the nature of the first resurrection detailed in revelation 20 is correctly identified.

To begin, both premillennialists and postmillennialists alike believe in the absolute necessity of each individual having to be spiritually reborn if they are to inherit eternal life. "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again,"(John 3:3). What evangelical Christian has interpreted this verse in light of a physical rebirth, as did Nicodemus? What is meant here is a spiritual rebirth—to cross over from inherited spiritual death originating in Adam’s sin, to gracious spiritual life through the second Adam, Christ. What we immediately think of when hearing the word "birth" is a mere physical event, though Christ here is pointing us, and Nicodemus, towards the more difficult interpretation that there is such a thing as spiritual rebirth, presupposing not a prior state of spiritual neutrality, but of spiritual death. So the spiritual rebirth that Christ mentions to Nicodemus is nothing other than a spiritual resurrection.

***I have never found one verse in the Bible that shows that a spirit can die. That is why Satan and his angels must be put in prison. If a spirit cannot die, then there can be no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection."

It is without question the first instance that any believer experiences in coming to a state of life from a state of death--the first resurrection. What type of resurrection, spiritual or physical, would be more intrinsically necessary to anyone dead in sin? As we learned in the garden, "for when you eat of it you will surely die", the first death was spiritual, not physical.

***"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years" (II Pet. 3:8). Adam lived 930 years (Gen. 5:5). He died physically within one great day.

Is it exegetically or theologically presumptuous to assume that the first resurrection will be spiritual as well?

***Yes, since spirits do not die, and therefore do not need to be resurrected.

All would agree that Scripture teaches that each individual will experience at least one resurrection, a bodily one. Let us examine whether or not Scripture teaches that believers will experience two resurrections, the first spiritual, and the second physical.

The first verse of Scripture relevant to the debate is Ephesians 2:4-6, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,"(Ephesians 2:4-6).

***We are born with a dormant spirit, having only soul life, like the animals. When we accept Christ, our dormant spirit is kindled to life by the Lord, never again to die. From that moment on, WE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE. The body may die, but our soul and spirit cannot die, and our body will be resurrected. If "Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10). The soul that sinneth, it shall die (Eze. 18:4,20), but the spirit that is kindled to life by Christ also saves the soul. "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2).

***We "were by nature the children of wrath (born that way), even as others" (Eph. 2:3). Verses 5 and 6 says, "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS." Because we are in Christ, and Christ is in Heaven, figuratively we are in Heaven. Because of our position in Christ, we are potentially in Heaven, even though experientially, we await the reality.

Notice here two things from Paul. First, he is writing in the past tense, meaning that he and those to whom he is writing to have already experienced a resurrection apart from Christ's second coming, their physical death, or the rapture. This leads us to believe that this resurrection is not only first, but spiritual. Second, Paul and all that share in this spiritual resurrection are seated with Christ and reigning with Him.

***Instead of the spirit being resurrected, the spirit is born. The man who only had soul life, animal life, accepts Christ and is now born again. His spirit is kindled to life.

We learn from this that believers can reign with Christ in spirit without two things, namely, Christ's second coming and a physical rebirth.

***I hope he is not unwise enough to trust that he can reign with Christ without physical resurrection. It is those of the first resurrection that reign with Christ a thousand years (Rev. 20:4,5).

This verse mirrors Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

***Exactly, we must be part of the first resurrection.

All believers, physically alive or dead, are presently counted as blessed and holy in our Lord and are seated with Christ in spirit to rule alongside Him for an indefinite amount of time (thousand years?) while the whole of history unfolds.

***Before he believes in Christ, man is body and soul. He has animal life. The believing man is body, soul and spirit. His spirit has been born, kindled to life. Man is not a split personality, part of him here and the other part sitting up there in Heaven waiting for him to catch up with it. Also, when Scripture says 1000 years, I wonder why he questions it. Doesn't he know that Scripture, in it's original editions, is 100% truth? If it says it, I believe it.

Furthermore, Scripture tells us that no one in Christ will experience the second death. Therefore, the sum total of all believers, and not just some future fraction, have part in the blessing of the first resurrection.

***That is true. All saints are resurrection or Raptured and changed before the Second Advent. They will reign with him 1000 years.

Colossians 2:13, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ." This spiritual resurrection is past, not future. Also, this resurrection is what necessarily makes us "alive", not the fact that we have physical bodies.

***We are alive because we have animal life, soul life, before we accept Christ and our dormant spirits are kindled to life. There is no resurrection involved to this point. Our spirit is born, not resurrected after being killed. It is our second "birth" because we are born with soul life first, then born again with spiritual life when we accept Christ. If the body dies, it needs resurrection.

We must always remember that "the Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing,"(John 7:63), and that "if there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body,"(1 Corinthians 15:44). Both the natural body and the spiritual bodies need rebirth.

***Not rebirth--birth.

It follows that if we were not already spiritually reborn at this present moment then we would not know Christ. Romans 6:4-5, "We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." Is this new life that Paul details here merely a future physical one or something else of yet greater consequence? Are we as believers still waiting to be united with Christ in his resurrection or has it already occurred in the rebirth of souls and the renewal of our minds?

***As believers, we were united with Christ when we accepted Christ. Our souls were saved from death, not killed and reborn.

Romans 6:11, "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to god in Christ Jesus." Again, this verse details a present and first spiritual resurrection, not a future and first bodily resurrection.

***Jesus said that ye must be born again. It is a spiritual birth, not spiritual death and spiritual resurrection.

Romans 6:13, "Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life." All believers have been resurrected with Christ into new life.

***If we are alive, we have not yet been resurrected. We have been born again unto new life.

1 Peter 1:3, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." This "new birth" cannot be future or physical.

***Amen. He finally got it right.

Premillennialists, in keeping with their interpretive system, absolutely need the first resurrection to be physical, not spiritual. According to their system, this physical resurrection is ushered in with the second coming of Christ wherein the saints will rule with Him for a thousand years.

***I am pretribulational. I believe that the first Rapture is before the Tribulation. I believe the second Rapture is on the first day of the Millennium, and that Jesus returns 7 months later on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year.

However, a spiritual resurrection certainly does not fit into this system for one very simple reason, Christ has not yet returned. For the premillennialist, where there is no return of Christ, there can be no first resurrection. Suffice it to say, they are still awaiting this first resurrection. The premillennialist understands that the second coming and the first resurrection are to happen one after the other and without any great delay.

***I expect the next rank in the first resurrection to come on Pentecost, 2000, then the following rank to come on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. I expect Christ to return on Nisan 1, 5768, our Apr. 6, 2008, the anniversary on our calendar of the Crucifixion.

But if every believer experiences this first resurrection apart from the second coming of Christ, and is presently "seated with Him in the heavenly realms", then the whole premillennial system becomes difficult to keep afloat.

***Maybe that is what is wrong with his system, it is afloat, because he is trying to make the new birth a resurrection.

Incoming Email

1. PASSOVER...........fulfilled..Jesus was crucified on the cross.

2. UNLEAVEN BREAD.."....Preached to captives/took keys of hell and death from satan.

3. FIRST FRUITS..........."....Jesus and many saints resurrected. This was the first
(barley harvest feast)............harvest of souls.

4. PENTECOST...PARTIAL..Sending of Holy Ghost started Pentecostal Age of grace,
(wheat harvest feast)..........will be consummated when church is resurrected....

5. TRUMPETS.............Will be fulfilled when Jesus returns with saints from heaven at end of the tribulation.

6. ATONEMENT............Fulfillment; Jesus atones for Israel/Jubilee starts
7. TABERNACLES..........Greatest celebration and banquet the earth has ever known, with King Jesus at pulpit.

My reply

I agree with you through the Rapture (wheat harvest) on Pentecost. From there on, I differ with you.

I think Jesus becomes King of kings and Lord of lords in Heaven on the Feast of Trumpets. Then the Marriage of the Lamb takes place--after that, the Judgment Seat of Christ--after that, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, all in Heaven on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The Second Advent is still 7 months future (Eze. 39:12).

FEAST OF TRUMPETS. Rev. 11:15-18 shows the above. It says, "there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats (thrones), fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and ART TO COME (the Second Advent is still 7 months future); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (the united nations' army under Gog is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come (Eze. 38:18,19), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

SECOND ADVENT. Eze. 29:17,21: "in the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1)...In that day will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Logos, the Word) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."

Hos. 6:3: "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter (rain, Second Advent, Nisan 1, first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year) and former rain (First Advent, Tishri 1, first day of the Civil Year) unto the earth." I believe Jesus will return in glory on the same day all the other Israelite kings officially took office, even though their term of office had actually begun earlier.

After the catastrophe and thick darkness on the Feast of Trumpets, when the two large asteroid pieces impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10), "seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be GLORIFIED (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD" (Eze. 38:12,13). It is a Jewish Leap Year, because there are seven months between the Feast of Trumpets and the following Nisan 1.

We know that the Lord does not return of the day of thick darkness, the Feast of Trumpets. Zech. 14: 5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night, but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

De. 11:14: "I will give you the rain of your land (Israel) in HIS DUE SEASON, the first rain and the latter rain." The former rain begins Tishri 1, the latter rain, Nisan 1.

> ATONEMENT............Fulfillment; Jesus atones for Israel/Jubilee starts

The Sacred Year runs from Nisan 1 to Nisan 1. Therefore the Jubilee Year that is announced on the Day of Atonement in the 49th year, actually begins the following Nisan 1, the day that Jesus Returns to Earth. Agape

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Updated 10-24-99