Pro and Con 413

Uploaded 10-27-99

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Claud Lowe wrote:
Try Matthew 24 where Jesus himself tells you when the Rapture occurs, unless
you don't believe him either.

***From Marilyn: I believe the entire Bible is God breathed. Of course, I believe Matthew. More than that, Jesus was talking in Mt. 24. He is God. We had better believe him. The only problem is I don't know where in Mt. 24 he told us when the Rapture occurs. Please fill me in.

***Mt. 24 gives enough clues to figure out that the second Rapture is on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium, but concerning the first Rapture, v. 28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body, i.e., Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), there will the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together." It is the Tribulation saints that are gathered from the Earth on the Feast of Trumpets. At that time, v. 31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the "last trump" of I Cor. 15:52), and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." These are the Body of Christ that were caught up in the first Rapture. They are already in Heaven. They are called "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23). It is the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, when "they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:18).

***Mark 13:27 tells us a little more than Mt. 24:31. In Mark, Jesus said, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (Rapture of the Tribulation saints at the "last trump") to the uttermost part of HEAVEN (the Body of Christ that was caught up to Heaven at the first trump, before the first seal is broken).

***Mt. 24:32-34 does show us when the last 40 years of this age will begin, when the fig tree (Israel) putteth forth leaves. This she did in the Six-Day War of 1967. She grew four leaves, Golan Heights, West Bank, Gaza Strip and Sinai. Both the Pre-Trib and the Pre-Wrath Raptures will take place within this period of time.

Let me see. There have been several that have set dates and they passed without anything happening. It's all history and you know it. I would bet you have read about them just as I have. I hear most saying they believe what God says, then they try to make it mean something else. Neither you nor I know the day nor hour of his coming but we, as God told us, can know the signs of the times. That is scripture. Are you saying you know exactly when Jesus is coming? I don't think you said that. However, to imply that he is coming before the Tribulation is without exact scriptural backup.

***No. I don't say I "know exactly when Jesus is coming." I say when I think it will be. You have to do your own studying of Scripture to see if you agree or disagree. You are supposed to study to show yourself approved, hang onto that which is good and cast the rest aside.

***I firmly believe that Jesus will come and say "Come up hither" to the Bride of Christ before the Tribulation. Look at Rev. 4:1: "behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." The Tribulation is "hereafter." Now look at Rev. 5:9: Christ "hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY KINDRED, AND TONGUE, AND PEOPLE, AND NATION." This is before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6 to start the Tribulation.

***It happens just like Rev. 3:10 says: "I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to thy them that dwell upon the earth."

***You are to "pray always, that ye may BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36).

We dare not pull a verse out of context and try to fit it somewhere else. That is not our right. God had them write the verses where they are for a reason. I know you don't believe me. Most don't, but that's okay. We shall see very shortly. Also, quit playing the semantics game. It's getting old very old and is no longer used by most believers.

i guess you missed the verse where God Almighty said that even the elements will melt and he will create a new heaven and a new earth in many scriptures.

***No. I didn't miss them. I just know that they do not happen at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

***The atmospheric heavens and the face of the Earth will be severely damaged when the two large asteroid pieces (Rev. 8:8,10) impact Earth on the Day of God's Wrath. Civilization as we know it will be destroyed. Every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20). The Lord will need to refresh the heavens and the face of the Earth as he did in Adam's day to make Earth a fit habitat for man during the Millennium.

I did not say anywhere that the Tribulation was in 30A.D. It is soon to come though.

***We agree on that.

You know, something tells me we got our wires crossed somewhere. Let us back up and stop a minute. Let me reread this thing again.

First, I did not say the world would end and Christ return by March 2000. Stop putting words in my mouth I never said. I said American may fall, not would.

***...Here are our exact words:
> > I believe that America may well fall by March of 2000.
>
> ***Woops! you are guessing. Oh, and setting a date. Your words don't
> come over with a whole lot of conviction when you do what you tell me not to do.

***You see. I don't say something will definitely happen when I think it will, either. I just give my opinion on the matter. I tell how it looks to me.

Greens Interlinear says "sky" not "heaven" as the King James does. There is a difference whether you accept it or not. He did not say heavens, must heaven.

***I agree that "heaven" seems to be the better translation. Here are both translations:
> ***Let's see what it is you are talking about. In Mt. 24:31, the King
> James Version of the Holy Bible says, "And he shall send his angels with
> a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect
> from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
>
> ***Green's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament says, "and He shall
> send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
> together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Which heaven, if you believe in more than one? It doesn't say.

***II Cor. 12:2-4 does. Paul was "caught up to the third heaven...to paradise."

No, I am not sleeping as you put it. I just believe it as it's written word for word. Yes, we can grab a piece here and grab a verse there and ignore where they came from, but then we can't just use them back in that same context cant we, since you can't have it two ways.

***Some prophecies do have a double fulfillment.

How can it be the last trump if Pre_trib?

***It can't. It has to be at the first trump. The last trump is Pre-Wrath.

Since there are seven trumpets after that that are judgments and according to Jesus own words in Matthew 24, immediately after the tribulation of those days he will send his angels to gather his elect with the sound of a great trumpet. Does that verse say before the Tribulation or after. Which is it? Is it as Jesus said, since he is God and doesn't lie or as you say it? You can't have two raptures can we?

***Yes. There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture is for the Bride of Christ, the wise virgins, the condemnation-free Philadelphians filled with brotherly love.

***The Pre-Wrath Rapture is for the Tribulation saints, the foolish virgins, the lukewarm Laodiceans. Both groups are caught up before any of the seven trumpet judgments hit Earth. The second group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14. The seven trumpets start to sound in Rev. 8. In Mt. 24:31, the trumpet that is sounded is the trump of God that gathers the saints to the general assembly in Heaven before the Judgment Seat of Christ. The seven trumpet judgments are meted out at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the saints are there before it convenes.

Just answer that one question, did Jesus say before the Tribulation and the sun darkening and the mood turning to blood or immediately after that? Please answer this question by scripture word for word.

***In Mt. 31, the saints that were taken to Heaven before the Tribulation are gathered for the Judgment Seat of Christ. It says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

***However, Mark 13:27 shows that the Tribulation saints are also gathered at the same time. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of Heaven" (the Bride of Christ, who is already in Heaven).

No, not some other scripture that been pulled out of context. What does Jesus say. If you want to debate scripture, you have to know it by heart. I don't know it all, but I read it and believe it as it's written, not some other way.

***I also believe it as it's written.

I'm not upset with you, you're who you are. I'm just trying to get you to think. IS what I've been taught what it really says? Or isn't it?

***You can't go by what someone teaches you. You have to read the scriptures and decide for yourself what it really says. A person could mislead you. The Bible will not.

If I am wrong, then great for everyone. I'm glad. I don't want any brothers or sisters to go through that. I just believe we will and I base it on Jesus actual words, nothing else.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. If you mean a pre-wrath like the last vials, yes he will come just as they are poured out and he will Rapture his own. Either way, they are protected from those judgments. It says so.

***Pre-Trib means before the Tribulation. Pre-Wrath means before the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. The last verse in Rev. 6 says, "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The answer is probably that no one will be able to stand. There will be a worldwide earthquake when the two large asteroid pieces impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). Every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20). No believer will be on Earth at that time. That judgment is for unbelievers.

Where do you get that the virgins are caught up to heaven. Scripture says no such thing and you know it. That is interpreting, not scriptural words. He does not say they get caught up to heaven.

***In Mt. 24:40, Jesus said of the first Rapture, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left." In verse 51, he showed what would happen to the one who got "left." It says, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

***Lu. 12:46 also tells what happens to the one who got "left." It says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him asunder, cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

***The wise virgins in Mt. 25 are not the ones who get "left." They go with the Bridegroom when he comes. It is the foolish virgins who get "left". They are appointed their portion of the Tribulation with the hypocrites (pretenders) and the UNBELIEVERS.

***Jesus tells the Laodiceans, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH" (Rev. 3:16). They are spued out of the Body of Christ at the first Rapture for chastisement (v. 19).

Hey, maybe we should have a debate. You're good as good can be.

***Thank you. I thought we were having a debate.

I do wish you the best and in God too, even if I don't agree with you on that. We both agree that he's coming soon, right?

***Right. Now that we are in agreement on that, what should we do to get ready? We wouldn't want to get "left" like the foolish servants/virgins that do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit for lift off. WE have to be firmly attached to Him to go in the first Rapture. How do we get firmly attached? Tell me that. Here is a hint. Read I John 1:9 and Rev. 7:14.

Thank God, either way, it will be over before long. May God bless you and take care of you,
Claud

***May God open the eyes of your understanding. Agape

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From: Claud Lowe
Marilyn, the bible does not say that. It says we will escape his wrath. There is no scripture that says we will be raptured before the tribulation. Jesus said no we won't. He tells us when.

***From Marilyn: Do you really want to say, "Jesus said no we won't"??? I would be afraid to say he said something he didn't say. He did give us enough clues to be able to figure it all out, though, because he said, "I have foretold you ALL THINGS" (Mk. 13:23). We have to search for the hidden clues. Prov. 2:3-5 tells us how to search. It says, "Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for HID TREASURES; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."

You may wonder why the Lord didn't tell us plainly. Isa. 28:13 explains that "the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." You see, it takes the indwelling Spirit of Christ to help us understand. To the unbeliever, it is so much nonsense.

Hold on, I'm going to send you something I got sent about the rapture. It states every pre-trib verse and assumption and why it isn't so. Here comes. Now if you're not willing to read with an open mind, well, that's up to you. I will not change my beliefs based on interpretation of scripture. I base mine on word for word scripture, not some pastor's interpretation of if. If it does not say something, I don't try to get it to. Here, just read and then think about it.

***Claud, I use an old Mac and Netscape 2.0. I can't open .doc files. I would really like to see this. Would you/could you save it text only or ASCII, or Copy and Paste it into the email document...

I read with an open mind, that's for sure. I weigh each point and compare it with Scripture. If it stands the test, I keep it. If it does not, I throw it away. I am eager to learn. I only want to know the truth. I have no pet beliefs to defend, no chip on my shoulder. I have studied as hard as I can go since before 1960, have read every word of more than 15 versions of the Bible. I know what I believe and exactly why I believe it. But, that doesn't mean that I won't change if you can show me that Scripture indicates something different. I don't accept what people say unless it jibes with Scripture. I accept Scripture as God breathed 100% truth in its original editions....

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From Claud:
No problem. I've been there. Sorry. I use an AMD K6-2 350mhz. Will do that for you.

It's fun debating with you. 40Meg HD? Mercy kid. You need a much bigger system nowadays.

You'll have to upgrade after the first of the year or it won't work.

***From Marilyn: I pray that it will work. We are bankrupt, but long ago, my husband decided on a Mac for me. That way I didn't have to stop work on my book to learn to use the computer. The Apple rep met with me one time and showed me what I needed to know to get started. After that, I was off and running. As I understand it, Macs never did have a Y2K problem. It seems that the Lord may have been guiding Ed.

Note: I set my date year to 1971 also as a precaution.

***Thanks. I got the HTML you sent and was able to Copy and Paste into a BBEdit document. It is 38K. My Pro and Cons are around 30K. Since I do not think the Rapture has ever been imminent, but pre-planned before the world began, I will omit that part and see how it goes.

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Do you believe that the antichrist may come out of Syria? Some Scriptures do seem to indicate that he will come from Syria. In Daniel chapter 2 an image is revealed that represents five kingdoms. The head of gold was Babylon, the breast and arms of silver was Medo-Persia (note there are two arms for the Medes and the Persians), the belly and thighs of brass was Greece, and the legs of iron was the Roman empire. (Note again that the two legs represent the eastern and western groups of nations that were under the ancient rule of Rome.) The final part of the beast was the two feet of iron and clay representing the final powers on earth. Again it should be a Roman empire of two divisions; five eastern nations or toes and five western nations or toes. It is likely not to be one group of ten nations from the west only.

When Alexander the Great died, his empire was divided into four divisions for his four generals and these nations were known as Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt. The little horn, who is the antichrist, seems to come out of one of these four nations. Thus if the European federation of nations is to make up the ten nations at the end time to parallel the Roman empire, as is commonly believed today, there will be ten toes on one foot rather than five toe nations on each foot. Scriptures seem to designate the antichrist in several ways, including the king of Assyria and the king of Babylon. Thus it is not surprising that he may come from the eastern part of the ancient Roman empire. All of the first four kingdoms in the image of the beast in Daniel chapter 2 were from the east.

Daniel chapter 7 shows in verse 7 that the antichrist will come out of the ten nations that will be formed within the boundaries of the ancient Roman empire and that leaves out many of the nations now included in the European community.

Daniel chapter 8 tells of a vision in verse 3, that has a ram with two horns and one was higher than the other. In verse 5 it says that a he goat is also seen and that it had a notable horn between his eyes. The goat is Greece and the ram is the Medes and Persians ( so says verses 20 and 21). The great horn that came out of this he goat, Greece, was Alexander the great and this horn was broken (verse 22) to be the four kingdoms that succeeded him as mentioned above.

Daniel chapter 11 from verses 1 to 35 deals with about 150 years of historical wars between Syria and Egypt and indicates that the king of the north ( Syria ) would prevail in this battle. But in verse 36 the prophet seems to go ahead into the very end of time to give the prophetical application because his prophetic story is almost concluded in this chapter. ( Perhaps this verse should have been the beginning of a new chapter.) These verses will typify the arrival of the antichrist who is to come from the northern kingdom (see verse 40 to 42) who has succeeded against the southern kingdom. The northern of these two nations is Syria today.

When some of the middle east nations form some kind of amalgamation with some of the European nations there will be a strong indication that the antichrist is shortly to set up his rule on earth. Some of the above assumptions may be in error, but it does seem quite apparent that the end time ten nation kingdom will be composed of both an eastern and a western group of nations.

I very much appreciate your web site and have followed it with great interest for about a year now. You have an incredible understanding of end time events and their chronology. I live in B.C., Canada and this is my first email to you. Thank you if you are able to acknowledge this query.

My reply

Thanks for your kind words. I owe the Lord the credit for any understanding I might have. Early on, after 7 years of constantly reading of about an 18" stack of books from BIOLA's (Bible Institute of Los Angeles') La Mirada, CA, Library every week, I despaired of finding answers to some burning questions. I opened my Bible, put my hands on it, and said, "Lord! you'll have to show me. I want to know everything you want man to know about the Bible, all the deep things--everything." Since that day, he has helped me find the answers I sought, plus many more. As much as I knew about the Bible, I still had no idea how much that one book had in it. I don't think one person can ever dig it all out in one lifetime. All we can do is try. It is so evident that only God could have written Scripture. Every word counts. The complex interweaving of types and information could never have been accomplished by man. The "here a little, and there a little" of Isa. 28:13 is so beyond the ability of man, it is astonishing.

I have not gone into where the False Prophet comes from as much as other subjects, but said in my book that the Satan-possessed False Prophet (of Rev. 13:11-18), the final Antichrist, may be a Syrian Jew.

All the empires represented by Nebuchadnezzar's image are said to be world empires. They may have been of the then known world, but nevertheless are called world empires. I think this is because in our times, there will be a world government headed up during the first half of the Tribulation by the Tribulation Pope. Under the Pope (the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10), there will be 10 regional kings over the 10 regions that this world has already been divided into by those that want a One-World Government.

The great red dragon (Satan) has 7 heads and 10 horns (Rev. 12:3). I think the Tribulation Pope will be the 6th head, the False Prophet will be the 7th, and Satan himself will be the 8th (Rev. 17:10-12). The prophet that teaches lies will be the tail (Isa. 9:15), so he is the one that is Satan possessed. That is why Rev. 13:11 says, "he spake as a dragon." Agape

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FWD: S.R. Shearer wrote:
Now in all of this - i.e., the study of Daniel's Seventieth Week - it is of the utmost importance to grasp this one fundamental fact: the Judgment of God - His wrath - begins ONLY WITH THE SEVEN VIALS which occur at the end of the Seventieth Week [and after the Seventh Trump of God - at which time the resurrection and the rapture occur (Matt. 24:29-31; I Thess. 4:16-17)]. The Scriptures are quite specific as to this:

"And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven LAST plagues (i.e., the seven vials); FOR IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD....

***From Marilyn: The Day of God's Wrath has come in Rev. 6:17. On this Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord, the 7 trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. Two large pieces of an asteroid impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). The effects given under the 7 trumpet judgments are immediate. The vials are the effects after some time has gone by. "FOR IN THEM IS FILLED UP THE WRATH OF GOD."

The false perception of God's wrath as extending over the entire length of the Seventieth Week leads, naturally enough, to the erroneous conclusion that the church will be raptured BEFORE the Tribulation, because the Church is not appointed to wrath....

***The Day of God's Wrath is the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14; Rev. 6:17). It is the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the 1000-year Day of the Lord. That does not keep the wise virgin Bride of Christ in the Tribulation though.

the wrath of God [which is to be differentiated from the Tribulation of the Saints] is contained only in the Seven Vials, which are to be poured out at the END of the Seventieth Week....

***Whenthe 2nd trumpet sounded, the "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5): and the third part of the sea became blood" (Rev. 8:8). When the 2nd vial was poured out "upon the sea...it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" (Rev. 16:3). Do you see the progression?

At the Seventh Trumpet, the following occurs:
1.The Resurrection and the Rapture.
2.The Temple in Heaven is opened. (Rev. 15:5)
3.Babylon is destroyed (Rev. 16:19).
4.The Lord comes to rule and reign. (Rev. 11:15-16)...

***I don't think so. If the Rapture were at the seventh trumpet, the saints would have to go through God's Wrath. Even the Tribulation saints are caught up (Rev. 7:14) before the first trumpet sounds in Rev. 8. The Second Advent is 7 months after the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 39:12).

"... He hath appointed a day in which He will judge the world..." (Acts 17:31)....

***I think it is Sept. 13, 2007, Tishri 1, 5768, the Feast of Trumpets.

Certain Christians have attempted to answer the puzzle by contending that these two witnesses are Moses and Elijah [some say Moses and Enoch or Elijah and Enoch] who shall come back to earth and testify in the city of Jerusalem for 3-1/2 years, breathing fire from their mouths like human torches. But such an interpretation borders on the absurd and is unreasonable...

how then can we account for the apparent omnipresence of the Two Witnesses? ...

"God has, on occasion, set His Law aside in order to intervene directly in the affairs of man, such as when He made the sun to stand still for Moses."...

***I thought it was Joshua's Long Day.

"... the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit [Antichrist] will make war against them [the Two Witnesses], overcome them, and kill them ..." (Revelation 11:7)....

The word mache means battle, while the word polemos means war. Their meaning is the same, but, once again, their scope is vastly different. A battle is a single isolated engagement between two opposing armies which - though it can be terribly intense in and of itself - is still limited in time and space, while polemos is a whole SERIES of battles fought over a much longer period of time and over a much greater stretch of territory....POLEMOS IS THE WORD USED IN REVELATION 11:7. Even if the word mache had been the one used in connection with the Two Witnesses, the use of that word in connection with two single human beings would have been rendered unintelligible. But to use the word polemos in reference to the murder of two single individuals in the city of Jerusalem is akin to using a nuclear bomb to kill a gnat. It renders it impossible - it's sheer idiocy....

***It is real. Their dead bodies lay in Jerusalem for 3.5 days, then they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven when the Lord says, "Come up hither," as he does at the Rapture. Polemos is translated "battle" 5 times.

THE TWO WITNESSES AS CORPORATE PERSONS

But again, the answer is not all that difficult. Anyone with even a modicum of knowledge concerning the Bible knows that the Bible has a lot to say about another kind of being, another kind of entity; God calls these entities by name and refers to them as "beloved." They are two in number and they are CORPORATE beings: Israel and the Church!...

It is here, in the streets of Babylon in its empire-wide sense, that the Two Witnesses shall lie; and it is here in the streets of Babylon - where false and apostate religion has always thrived - that the Lord of Glory was crucified....

That this entire section is symbolical can easily be seen: to calculate that one-tenth of the city was 7,000 people, and that hence the entire city (i.e., Jerusalem - or New York, or Washington D.C, or whatever) was 70,000 (i.e., ten-tenths) borders on the absurd. "...

***Of course. Rev. 11:13 says, " And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city (i.e., buildings) fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand." We can't multiply apples by oranges here. The 10th and the 7000 are of two different things.

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Updated 10-27-99