Pro and Con 416

Uploaded 10-31-99

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Claud Lowe wrote:
Very good. However, I still disagree on Pre-Trib.

***From Marilyn: Don't you believe Scripture? What in the world are we to pray for? In Luke 21:36, JESUS COMMANDS, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of survive through.

One of those reasons is that never, anywhere in scripture, has God ever removed his saints from out of tribulation. That is scriptural fact.

***Fact? How about Noah? How about Lot? Jesus said, "But as the days of Noe were so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....Then shall two be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT" (Mt. 24:37,40). Jesus also said, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot" (Lu. 17:28). Also, how about Enoch? How about Elijah? Enoch was caught up BEFORE the Flood (Gen. 5:24). Elijah was caught up (II Ki. 2:11) at the END of a period of tribulations. This is like the Bride of Christ being caught up BEFORE the Tribulation and the rest of the Body of Christ being caught up at the END of the shortened Tribulation, just before the wrath of God falls on the UNBELIEVERS.

***How did Jesus teach us to pray? (Mt. 6:9-15). Did he say, "lead us INTO temptation" or "lead us NOT into temptation, but DELIVER US FROM EVIL"? Is the Tribulation evil? The Greek word for "deliver" is "rhuomai, TO RUSH OR DRAW WITH A CURRENT, rescue, deliver, CAUSE TO ESCAPE, DRAW TO ONESELF. Doesn't that strongly suggest the Rapture?

***Does Gal. 1:3,4 help paint a clearer picture? It says, "our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins, that he might DELIVER (exAIReo, TO TAKE UP OUT OF) us FROM this present EVIL world."

***For an example, how about Acts 7:9,10: "the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, And DELIVERED (exAIReo, TO TAKE UP OUT OF) him out of ALL his AFFLICTIONS (tribulations)."

***Take another look at the Lord's prayer, Mt. 6:13. The Greek for "temptation" is peirasmos, trial, the same as in Rev. 3:10,11, where Jesus said, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly; HOLD THAT FAST WHICH THOU HAST, that no man take thy CROWN."

***The first group seen in Heaven before the first seal is broken to start the Tribulation have crowns. "And hast made us unto our God KINGS and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

***The second group seen in Heaven before the seventh seal is broken to start the judgment on unbelievers "are before the throne of God, and SERVE him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15). No crowns are mentioned. :-( What did they lose? Why?

I am looking for a particular verse that is hard to find right now, gosh. It says that he will bring his people through the fire, which in many other references means tribulation, and bring a tenth out tried, tested, and true. I'll find it yet, *sigh, just getting old.

***Maybe I can help. Isa. 6:13 says, "But yet in it (Israel) shall be a TENTH, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof."

***Zech. 13:8,9 says, "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land (Israel), saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the THIRD shall be left therein. And I will bring the THIRD part through the FIRE, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." This is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. These are Israelis that DO NOT BELIEVE IN CHRIST NOW. The nation will be born in a day, on THAT DAY.

***Isa. 66:8 says, "Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day: or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Does that apply to believers living under Jesus' Last Will and Testament that went into effect at this death? We see hints of the Rapture in the Old Testament, but it was not made clear until Paul explained it in the New Testament, after he himself was "CAUGHT UP TO THE THIRD HEAVEN" (II Cor. 12:2-7).

Only one other question: If all the Christians are raptured before the Tribulation, who is it that the beasts men torture and slay, per Rev saints under the throne? There won't be any here, if they are raptured

***I don't think all believers are going to be caught up in the first Rapture. The foolish virgins are left behind. They have sputtering lamps but no extra oil in their vessels (bodies). The lukewarm Laodiceans are left behind. They have no white garments. They are blind. Who is going? those that have washed their robes in the blood of Christ. The Bride always wears white. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when those who do not have enough of the Holy Spirit will be left behind. I John 1:9 is of paramount importance today.

***Also, as Elias saw Elijah taken up, there will be people that see the Rapture happen. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." Those will KNOW that what we told them was true. I expect they will be willing to die for their faith.

> I do believe that many will wake up then and become saved. One of the most important
> reasons for us to be here is to guide others and show them by faith even unto death
> that Jesus is the way.

***Of course, but we are not to do the one and neglect the other.

Anyway, we shall soon know as I believe the Tribulation is about to start. My reason: There is a concerted effort by the EU to have discussions with Israel right now. If so, then I think the Treaty will be signed shortly after the new year starts.

***The date of the signing of the Final Status Agreement has ALREADY BEEN SET for Sept. 13, 2000. That was agreed to in the agreement signed on Sept. 13, 1999.

As to my "date" about the US not being a nation after around March. I said "I doubted it". Why? Y2K. I believe we will be in either chaos or revolutionary war right here. There are too many things to indicate that this will be so. Another reason is that, regardless of guesses, I find no scripture that identifies this continent clearly enough during the last days or tribulation.

***Oh, and you did find it earlier? Agape

May God bless you, Claud

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Claud Lowe I watch all the time and pray to go. However, I would ask you this. Where in scripture does Jesus, himself tell you, other than in Matthew 24, when he is coming for us? Oh, That includes Mark and Luke too.

***Jesus wrote the script for all of his dramatic presentation, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." He wrote it as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10, the first and last chapters. Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5). Jesus is the director. He cast himself and John as actors in the drama and appointed John as narrator. Angels are the supporting cast.

***In Rev. 1:3, the Rapture is at hand. That is the setting for this miracle play. John starts off introducing Christ, saying "JOHN to the seven churches which are in Asia (meaning muddy, i.e., the Earth): Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent)." In 1:10,11, John said, "I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet (this is Christ), Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first (Lord of the Old Testament) and the last (Lord of the New Testament)."

***In Rev. 3:10, Jesus told the Philadelphian church that he would "keep thee from the hour of temptation, WHICH SHALL COME UPON ALL THE WORLD, TO TRY THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH." This is no ordinary temptation. This is world wide, to try all that dwell on this planet.

***To the Philadelphians, he said, "behold, I have SET BEFORE THEE AN OPEN DOOR" (3:8). In 4:1, the "door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard (Christ's) was as it were of a trumpet talking with me (as in Rev. 1:10); which said, COME UP HITHER, and I will shew thee things which must be HEREAFTER (after the Rapture). And immediately I was (lit., became) in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven." John has played out the Rapture for us, and he did it before the seven-sealed book was given to Jesus, before the first seal could have been broken, before the Tribulation.

***Just to make sure that we understand that this includes us all, 5:9 says, "thou wast slain, and hast (past tense) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

***The first seal that begins the Tribulation is opened after that, in Rev. 6:1.

If God can create al things, can he not protect us from his wrath on mankind? YES! No, that wasn't tribulation, that was the end of the world for them. Tribulation also means testing and trials.

***You don't think Noah was tested for 120 years? Did anyone but his own family believe him when he told them it was going to rain? No. Just because the others had never seen rain, they didn't think it would happen. Did they get fooled.

***Have you never read of the night in Sodom before the angels brought Lot out? Surely you don't think that Lot was not tested. His wife failed her test when they were told not to look back. Wasn't Lot tested in this also?

Paul and all the apostles suffered and many died. I leave and believe Jesus own words as they are written, not like I'd like to have them. Sure, I'd love to leave this world tonight, so I wouldn't be here, but then, it wouldn't fit Jesus' words. He didn't use symbolism there at all. He said, in his own words, that it was plain and not to be deceived by anyone. If he was speaking plainly then there is no need to interpret it in any way except to accept it as it is. Remember, what he said. Unless we become as children we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That also means to accept his words as they are written and quit trying to interpret them to our own satisfaction. I never try to interpret scripture. I let it speak for itself. It's plain enough to me anyway.

***We are to come to Christ as a little child, not study Scripture as a child. II Tim. 2:15 commands, "STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD, A WORKMAN THAT NEEDETH NOT TO BE ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORLD OF TRUTH."

If I don't understand, I pray and it's given unto me. I am ready now. I am waiting now, but no man knows the day or the hour of his coming, so we can't know if it's before the tribulation

***All Scripture is God breathed. You can believe any of it. II Tim. 4:1 says, "...the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead AT HIS APPEARING (the Rapture) and HIS KINGDOM (in the Millennium). Preach the work; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." How are you going to learn doctrine if you don't try to figure out what the deeper meanings of Scripture have to say?

or, as he said "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...." I believe his own words very well. Tribulation does not mean wrath of God. God says it very plainly in Revelation. His wrath is poured out in the last seven vials, particularly the last three.

***How about Rev. 6:17? It says, "the great DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand." This is before the seven trumpet judgments sound in Rev. 8. His wrath begins with the seven trumpet judgments and ends with the seven vials. The trumpet judgments include the asteroid impacts. Under the 2nd trumpet, "a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea (the Mediterranean, Zech. 2:4,5),...the third part of the sea became blood (Rev. 8:8)." The third part of the Mediterranean became blood IMMEDIATELY. Now look what happens as some more time goes by. When the second vial was poured "upon the sea; became as the blood of a dead man: and EVERY LIVING SOUL DIED IN THE SEA" (REV. 16:3). The trumpets are the immediate effects. The vials are the long reaching effects.

Tribulation and danger yes, but not wrath of God. If it were, nothing would be left by the end of it even with shortened days.

***Very little is left. So many men are killed that a child could write the number. The worldwide earthquake makes every wall fall worldwide. Civilization as we know it is destroyed. The dead lay around the world. The cities of the nations fall. Rev. 16:19 says, "And the great city (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts, and THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL." Egypt is so badly damaged that no one lives there for the next 40 years.

The seals are already opened up to the fourth or fifty one.

Jesus has not yet recieved the seven-sealed book. Not one of the seals has been broken. When the first one is broken, the Beast will take office over both the World Church and the World Government.

Many of the prophecies given by Jesus, himself, are coming to pass or have been fulfilled. The antichrist is alive right now and will soon take control of a confederacy of ten nations, thirteen to start with, since he defeats three utterly, thus leaving ten. The second member of this outfit is the False Prophet. He is the ruler of Babylon spoken of in Revelation. His city sits on seven hills, literally. Strangely, the present Pope made a comment to someone next to him and it got out. He said, "Beware the next Pope for he is the False Prophet". Amazing isn't it?

***I expect the Tribulation Pope to be the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10.

Just tossing that in to let you know it. Look, I believe what I do because of experience and failure for not believing it as it's written. I have made interpretation errors before, but not now. I leave it where it is. I don't like his punishment. It hurts badly. It give the soul pain like you have never known. I don't want those mistakes again. It would be eternal. I can't afford it.

***Suit yourself. Scripture says "STUDY TO SHEW THYSELF APPROVED UNTO GOD." Agape

Take care and God bless, Claud

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From: Claud:
Please, stick to the question that was asked. Where, in Scripture does Jesus, himself say, "Immediately before the tribulation of those days I will send my angels to gather my elect"?

Do go off somewhere else. Stick to the question and tell me. We cannot just toss something out there ever. You have not answered the question. Where in scripture does Jesus say he is coming before the Tribulation? Where? He doesn't, but he, who is GOD, says after. I did not say wrath would fall on any believer, anywhere. It won't, but torture and death from men will. Jesus said that too in Matthew 24. He said, they shall bring you up before judges and shall kill you.

Anyhow. Please answer the question only. That is all I want.
In Lu. 21:24-36, Jesus said, "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" Israel took all of Jerusalem June 7, 1967.

"And there shall be SIGNS (not darkness, signs) in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (astrois, constellations)". We have had unusually large sun flares, the discovery of a hexagon shape at the north pole of both the Sun and Saturn, comets crashing into the sun and Jupiter, the discovery that the moon has a sodium tail, a huge-beyond-all-imagination gamma ray burster in the tip of the spear in the constellation Bootes (from the Heb. bo, meaning TO COME) and a new star, Nova Velorum, in the sails of the ship Argo (which means THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS).

Continuing, Jesus said, "and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth (in the Tribulation): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads: for your redemption (the Rapture) draweth nigh." They began when Jerusalem all belonged to Israel in 1967, and stretch to 1999. The GRB was spotted Jan. 23, 1999, the new star May 22, 1999.

After the fig tree parable, Jesus continued, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture).

The only way we can "ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS" is to be caught up "to stand before the Son of man" in Heaven BEFORE they take place. And, to be able to "ESCAPE," we must "BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE." To be worthy to escape, we are to "PRAY ALWAYS." Pray what? that we will "BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE."

This agrees with Jesus' words to the Philadelphians in Rev. 3:10: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will KEEP THEE FROM the hour of temptation (including the temptation to take the Mark of the Beast so one could buy or sell), which shall come ('hereafter,' Rev. 4:1) upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

If we were supposed to be here during the Tribulation, there would have been some instructions on what we should do to prepare for it. Why do you suppose the scriptures are silent on this matter?

> I did not say wrath would fall on any believer, anywhere. It won't, but torture and death
> from men will. Jesus said that too in Matthew 24. He said, they shall bring you up before
> judges and shall kill you.

There, Jesus was talking to his disciples. It was in verse 9, before he said "and then shall the end come" in verse 14. Agape

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You present some interesting thoughts, but I think your "second rapture" premise is scripturally unfounded. In any case, may the Lord bless you for proclaiming the Gospel.
Sincerely, Pastor-----

My reply

Thanks. I do my best. We are living in the end of the age when it is so important to (1) accept Christ and (2) to make sure that no sin committed after we accepted Christ is unconfessed. We will have an awful long eternity to be sorry if we get caught being foolish virgins with robes spotted by the flesh instead of wise virgins wearing Bridal white when the Lord comes for his Bride. The Lord set the "open door" in front of the condemnation-free Philadelphians, not the complacent-lukewarm Laodiceans.

Concerning the two Raptures, I don't know how much, or which, of my writings you have read. Something like 38 years ago, I thought there was one Rapture. It was "as the days of Noe" (Mt. 24:37). I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51,52 applied to it. As I read the Bible over and over, I began to see that what I thought I knew was not quite on target.

Lu. 17:26 mentions the "days of Noe," and it rained WATER. Also, v. 26 says, "so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man." Woops! That means there are at least two Days of the Son of Man (not to be confused with the millennial Day of the Lord).

Reading on, verses 28-30 say, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot...But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained FIRE AND BRIMSTONE...Even thus shall it be in the DAY (one day) when the Son of man is revealed." That day is the day men on Earth SEE the sign of the Son of Man in the heavens, Mt. 24:30. The smoky heavens will roll aside like a scroll and men will say, "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the FACE of him that sitteth on the throne" (Rev. 6:16).

Well, that is sure different from the day Noah was shut up in the Ark. Think a minute. Two men were Raptured, Enoch and Elijah--TWO men--TWO Days of the Son of Man. Could it be? In Lu. 17:22,23, Jesus "said unto the disciples, The days will come when ye shall desire to see ONE of the DAYS of the Son of man, and ye shall not see IT (the Pre-Trib Rapture). And they shall say to you, See here: or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them." Mt. 24:26 says, "if they shall say unto you, Behold, HE is in the desert; go not forth." This refers to the False Prophet in Babylon during the last half of the Tribulation. Ouch. If I miss "ONE of the DAYS of the Son of man", I'll find myself here during the last part of the Tribulation.

Continuing in Lu. 17, verse 24 says, "For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the SON OF MAN be in HIS DAY (the second of the two Days of the Son of Man)." This second Day of the Son of Man must be the same day the seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth. When the two large pieces of the asteroid impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10), FIRE FALLS THAT SAME DAY. It looks like the second Day of the Son of Man is also the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Those Tribulation saints will be caught up out of the fiery furnace as Daniel's friends were and as Lot left Sodom and went to the mountains. They must be out of here before noon, when "a great mountain burning with fire" hits the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5; Job 20:23; Amos 8:9; Eze. 25:16) and "a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) destroys Babylon (Rev. 18:21).

Sometime between 6:00 PM on the last day of this age and noon on the first day of the Millennium, he "shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Church saints who were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture (Mk. 13:27).

The first group is the redeemed "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" of Rev. 5:9. They are caught up as John is when Christ says "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1 and are in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6 to start the Tribulation.

The second group is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" of Rev. 7:9. "These are they which came out of GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God" (Rev. 7:14,15).

Now, I can see that I Thess. 4:13-18 is the first Day of the Son of Man, when the FIRST TRUMP sounds to call the saints to Heaven before the first seal is broken. The passage in I Cor. 15:51,52 is the second Day of the Son of Man, when the "LAST TRUMP" sounds to call the Tribulation saints to Heaven between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals and also gathers all the saints to the assembly in Heaven.

Now, I understand the typology of the two silver assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4. When "they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (elders), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." We see the 12 patriarches and 12 apostles (elders) in Heaven right after the first trump blows (Rev. 4:4).

When they blow with both, "ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door" (Nu. 10:3). When that "LAST TRUMP" sounds, ALL saints will be changed (I Cor. 15:51,52), and join "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:23), just as Mk. 13:27 said. They will be called to the assembly from the uttermost part of the Earth to the uttermost part of Heaven.

Why are ALL his saints assembled in Heaven that particular day, the Day of God's Wrath? Rev. 11:17,18 tells us. It says, "We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and ART TO COME (the Second Advent is 7 months later, Eze. 39:12); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (this is Christ's Coronation Day, also the day of the Marriage of the Lamb). And the nations were angry (the united nation's army under Gog is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and thy wrath is come (Day of God's Wrath), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgement Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (Israel).

While all his saints in Heaven receive their rewards for their belief, all unbelievers on the Earth receive their just rewards for their unbelief.

As types of the first trump, we have Enoch and the days of Noah. As types of the last trump, we have Elijah and the days of Lot. Neither Enoch or Lot had to go through tribulation. Both Elijah and Lot went through tribulation. Jezebel wanted to kill Elijah then instead of in the middle of the Tribulation, but God overruled.

Noah's wife was saved with him. Lot lost his wife along the way. Both are excellent types to depict the Rapture of the Bride of Christ at the first trump, when the Spirit of Christ comes like rain, and the Rapture of the rest of the Body of Christ at the last trump, when the fire falls that same day.

In "Christ shall ALL be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank): Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (I Cor. 15:22,23). Both groups to be raptured are part of the Body of Christ. Christ is the head. He went to Heaven on Ascension Day. Many saints that have already died and gone to Heaven are as the torso and legs of the Body of Christ. The living Bride of Christ is like one foot, the rest of the Body is like the other foot. Finally, all the Body of Christ will be born into another new world and be assembled in Heaven for the Judgment Seat of Christ on the first day of Jesus' 1000-year reign. Agape

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Updated 10-31-99