Pro and Con 417

Uploaded 11-1-99

My Outgoing email

Thank you so much for sending me the Literal Concordant Versions of Daniel, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Solomon, and finding out for me that the translators have not finished Jeremiah yet. I had a hard time doing anything else but reading until I had read them all. I think the most valuable thing I learned was that there seem to be members of the Bride of Christ in BOTH Rapture groups.

Here is the Literal Concordant version Song of Sol. 2:8-14 (the caps are mine): "My darling (i.e., Christ) answered and said to me (the Bride of Christ): ARISE, YOU, MY DEAREST! My lovely one, NOW GO YOU FORTH (the Pre-Trib Rapture)! For behold, the wintry weather has passed; The downpour has passed on and has itself gone. The flowers ('I am...like an anemone among the thistles,' 2:1,2) are SEEN (i.e., their lamps are bright) in the land; The SEASON FOR PRUNING (cutting off the foolish virgins, Lu. 12:46; Mt. 24:51) is attained, And the VOICE of the turtledove (i.e., the voice of Christ) is heard in our land (it is spring). The fig tree flavors its green figs, And the vines, in bloom, give scent. ARISE, YOU, MY DEAREST! My lovely one, NOW YOU GO FORTH! My dove, in the clefts of the crag (in Christ, our rock), In the concealment of the cliff (in Christ, our rock), Let me SEE your APPEARANCE; Let me hear your voice; For your voice is congenial, And your APPEARANCE is comely" (i.e., dressed in white).

Song 6:13 asks, "What do you perceive in the Shulammite? Something like the Mahanaim (note: or two camps) chorus?" I perceive in the Shulammite, two camps, the wise and foolish virgins. In Song 8:10 the Bride says, "I am a WALL, And my breasts are like TOWERS (i.e., two towers)."

What is the church symbolized as? I Cor. 3:9 (KJV) says, "ye are God's BUILDING." Eph. 2:19-22 says, "and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." Christ is the corner stone. The apostles are like foundation stones. Rev. 21:15 says, " And the WALL of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles."

The 12 apostles are elders, along with the 12 patriarchs. They are caught up to Heaven when Christ says, "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1-4). I think now that there will be members of the Bride of Christ taken from both THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE and the PRE-WRATH RAPTURE. In Song of Solomon, the Bride is TWO ARMIES, but she is ONE WALL WITH TWO TOWERS.

This explains Lu. 13:24-30 (KJV): "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When ONCE (the Pre-Trib Rapture) the master of the HOUSE is risen up, and hath SHUT TO THE DOOR, and ye (the foolish virgins) begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I KNOW YOU NOT WHENCE YE ARE (their lamps are sputtering): Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not WHENCE YE ARE (no bright lamps to show their location): Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I KNOW YOU NOT WHENCE YE ARE; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YE WORKERS OF INIQUITY (if they had confessed their sins, iniquity would be forgiven and their lamps burning brightly). There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH (as in Mt. 24:51), when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves THRUST OUT (cut off and assigned their portion with the unbelievers, Lu. 12:46). And THEY (the Tribulation saints) SHALL COME (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south ('from the four winds,' Mk. 13:27), and shall sit down in the kingdom of God (on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord). And, behold, THERE ARE LAST WHICH SHALL BE FIRST, AND THERE ARE FIRST WHICH SHALL BE LAST."

The second Rapture is on Coronation Day. Song 3:11 (Conc.) says, "COME FORTH, O daughters of Zion (the 144,000, Rev. 7), and SEE king Solomon (Son of David, i.e., Christ), With the crown with which his mother crowned him On the day of his wedding" (it is also the day of the Marriage of the Lamb). The second group caught up to Heaven "ascends from the WASHING" (Song. 4:2). This agrees with Rev. 7:14, where they have come out of Great Tribulation and have WASHED THEIR ROBES in the blood of the Lamb.

The first Rapture is "the season for pruning" (Song. 2:12, Conc.). Right afterward, Song 2:17-3:2-4,11 says, "Turn around, my darling (Christ) be you like a gazelle Or a fawn of the deer (as at the first Rapture) ON THE SUNDERED mountains (the cut off tower). On my bed in the nights I sought him whom my soul loves; I sought him, yet I did not find him. LET ME RISE NOW, and let me go around in the city, Through the roadways and through the squares; Let me seek him whom my soul loves. I SOUGHT HIM, YET I DID NOT FIND HIM. The guards who go around in the city found me. He whom my soul loves, have you seen him? Barely had I passed by them When I FOUND HIM whom my soul loves...COME FORTH, O daughters of Zion (the 144,000, Rev. 7, part of the larger group out of all nations), and SEE king Solomon (Son of David, i.e., Christ), With the crown with which his mother crowned him On the day of his wedding (the Marriage of the Lamb)."

More details about the Tribulation saints are in Song 5:1-6 (Conc.). It says, "I come to my garden, my sister (suggests the 144,000), O BRIDE. I nip off my myrrh (bitterness) with my aromatics....I (the foolish virgin) was asleep (not watching), yet my heart was aroused (she is a believer); Hark, my darling (Christ) knocking (as in Rev. 3:20)! Open to me, my sister, my dearest, My dove, my flawless one (he comes at the Pre-Trib Rapture for the Philadelphians, for whom He has no condemnation), For my head is covered with night mist, My locks with moisture of the night ('midnight,' Mt. 25:6). I (the foolish virgins) have stripped off my tunic (robe); how should I put it on again (confess sins, I Jn. 1:9)? I have washed my feet; how should I dirty them again?" My darling put forth his hand into the latch hole, And my bowels clamored for him. I arose to open for my darling; My hands dripped with myrrh (bitterness), And my fingers with overflowing myrrh--On the handgrips of the latch. I opened for my darling (Christ), Yet my darling had vanished; he had passed aside, My soul had gone forth when he spoke; I sought him, yet I DID NOT FIND HIM."

Proberbs 13:9 (Conc.) says, "The LIGHT of the righteous IS RADIANT, Yet the lamp of the wicked is extinguished." Prov. 20:27 says, "The LAMP OF YAHWEH is the lifebreath of mankind." This ties in with the oil that the foolish virgins lack being the Spirit of Christ. If we confess our sins and are filled with his Holy Spirit, our lamps are RADIANT. He will SEE us at the Rapture.

Proverbs 11:8,9; 12:13 (Conc.) is interesting. It says, "The righteous one is EXTRICATED FROM DISTRESS ('I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation,' Rev. 3:10), And the WICKED ONE shall come IN HIS STEAD....YET BY KNOWLEDGE THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL BE EXTRICATED." (by the Rapture). II Thess. 2:3,8 (KJV) agrees. It says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (millennial Day of the Lord) shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, i.e., the Rapture) FIRST, and that man of sin be revealed (SECOND)...And THEN shall that Wicked be revealed."

Ecclesiastes 3:17 (Conc.) is clearer than the KJV. It says, "He has set a season for every event and for every deed." Eccl. 8:5,6 says, "the wise heart shall know TIME and JUDGMENT. For there is TIME and JUDGMENT for every event."

I haven't previously been convinced that the numbering of the Psalms reveal the years in our days, but Psalm 100 in the Concordant sure makes me look at it again. It says, "Raise a JOYFUL SHOUT to Yahweh, ALL THE EARTH! Serve Yahweh with rejoicing! COME TO HIS PRESENCE WITH JUBILANT SONG (the new song?) Know that Yahweh, He is Elohim; He it is Who has made us, and WE ARE HIS. His people are we and the flock of His pasture. ENTER HIS GATEWAYS (doors) with acclamation (an overwhelming affirmative vote by cheers, shouts, or applause)! His courts with praise! Acclaim Him! Bless His Name! For Yahweh is good; His benignity (mercy) is eonian (everlasting), And His faithfulness unto generation after generation."

Psa. 102:9-18 has some things that sound like it is speaking of a time during the Tribulation when the Second Advent is still future. It says, "I blend my drink with LAMENTATION, IN VIEW OF YOUR INDIGNATION AND YOUR WRATH, for you have lifted me up and are flinging me down...I am drying up like herbage....you shall have compassion on Zion, for it is THE ERA to be gracious to her, Since THE APPOINTED TIME HAS COME...Yahweh will build up Zion: He will appear in HIS GLORY...Let this be written for a LATER GENERATION." Does this fit 2002? Food for thought.

Thanks again for the Concordant Literal Old Testament books. Agape

Incoming Email

Claud Lowe wrote:
Pardon but Jesus does not say before and after the rapture anywhere in Revelation when he's talking to John in Rev 1:29.

***You mean Rev. 1:19. It says, "Write the THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN, and THE THINGS WHICH ARE, and the THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER."

***You figure out for yourself what are "THE THINGS WHICH ARE." Rev. 4:1 shows you that after "THE THINGS WHICH ARE" come the "things which must be hereafter." Therefore "THE THINGS WHICH ARE" must come BEFORE the "things which must be hereafter." They come before that last phrase in Rev. 4:1.

***You figure out for yourself what day is "at hand" in Rev. 1:3.

You know that is not so. Why are you inferring? Nowhere does it say the church, period in that verse. It is not symbolism. As you said, John was literally taken up into heaven. John is not the church.

***Not only is John an apostle, he is one of the 24 elders seen in Heaven after the Rapture of Rev. 4:1. He definitely is part of the church. He is one of the foundation stones of the church. Eph. 2:19,20 says that we "of the household of God...are built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone."

***In Heaven, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles are our representatives. This is similar to our Representatives in Congress. In Heaven these 24 elders have "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5:8). The other saints include us. As our representatives, the elders present our prayers at the throne of God. At that point, we have already been redeemed on the day of redemption, the day we were raptured "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

***Since John is one of the 24 elders, and since once he is caught up to Heaven all 24 elders are seated on their thrones (Rev. 4:4), all 23 of the other elders are raptured at the same time John is raptured.

***Lu. 21:28 says, "when these thinge begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads: for your REDEMPTION draweth nigh." The Day of Our Redemption is the Rapture. The word translated redemption is apolutrosis, "A LOOSING AWAY" (Young's Concordance). Eph. 1:13,14 says, "after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the REDEMPTION (loosing away, i.e., the Rapture) of the purchased possession." Eph. 4:30 says, "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the DAY OF REDEMPTION (apolutrosis, A LOOSING AWAY),"

***In Rom. 8:22,23, another apostle, Paul, said, "we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (apolutrosis, A LOOSING AWAY) of our body."

***The day that Paul and the other 23 elders get their resurrection bodies is at the Rapture. Paul will get his at the same time as John. We will too, as Luke will.

***When Paul and John get their resurrection bodies, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:16,17).

***When John gets his resurrection body, Paul will get his. All the other 22 elders will get theirs. So will the "redeemed...out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

That is not said anywhere. That is internee, not scriptural fact. Some of these beliefs are held by pre-tribulation groups believe it or not. I've met them. Only if we try to make God human are they measured. How is it that God can't stretch time? Why do you keep trying to make God a human? He can do whatever he wants too. To those that are taken up, does time matter? It doesn't exist for them. I see you use this single verse and that single verse and deny what Jesus himself said. Do you deny what he said in Matthew 24 as false? Well, no don't answer with a bunch of other verses. Do you say that Jesus, in Matthew 24 is lying? Either you accept it or you don't. If you don't fine. That's us to you.

***I believe every word in the original editions of the Bible. That includes Mt. 24. Verse 6 says, "ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but THE END IS NOT YET." In 70 AD, Jerusalem was taken, but THE END WAS NOT YET. Verse 14 is different. The gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world, "AND THEN SHALL THE END COME." Verse 15 starts to talk about the middle of the Tribulation, when the abomination of desolation is set in the temple. Verse 21 says, "for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION." Therefore "THE END" is the last half of the Tribulation, the "GREAT TRIBULATION." The False Prophet will be in the desert, at Babylon. In verse 26, Jesus said, "if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth."

***Verse 28 says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body) is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Most of the Body of Christ is already in Heaven by this time. I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank)." All that remains is to gather the Tribulation saints, the high flying "eagles." Isa. 40:31 says, "they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

***The gathering of the Tribulation saints will come on the Feast of Trumpets when they see the "sign of the Son of man" (verse 30). That will be the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). At that time, "he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Who is in Heaven to be gathered together? At this point, it is only the saints that were caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

***But Matthew 24 leaves us hanging. Only those caught up at the Pre-Trib Rapture are in Heaven. Yet, we know that the Tribulation saints (eagles) need to be gathered too. Mark 13:27 comes to our rescue. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the saints already caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

***Matthew 25 tell us of the wise virgins going with the Bridegroom when he comes the first time. They are taken up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The foolish are left behind. They have to be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture along with the other Tribulation saints.

However, In Revelation, it says there will be a multitude saved, not before tribulation, but out of tribulation, a totally different meaning altogether.

***Both groups that are raptured are shown in Revelation. In 5:9, those of the Pre-Trib Rapture are seen in Heaven before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. They are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9).

***In 7:14, the Tribulation saints are seen in Heaven between the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8). Rev. 7:9,14 is "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

***The first group is made up of the wise virgins. The second group includes the foolish virgins. Did you notice that the first group seems smaller than the last group? The Tribulation saints are such a great multitude that they are not numbered. However, among them are the 144,000 Israelites that are numbered.

DO YOU BELIEVE WHAT JESUS HIMSELF SAID IN MATTHEW 24? DO you believe it, without trying to use some other verse. Please answer that and no quoting other scripture.

***"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (II Tim. 3:16).

DO you believe what Jesus said? I just ask this question. Can you give a yes or no answer?

***Yes. And I have explained what he said.

You keep avoiding giving an answer, why?

***I keep telling you. You just don't pay much attention to what I say.

Just this one verse, by Jesus contradicts all pre-trib rapture theories and we both know it.

***Mt. 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." This verse shows us that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. That is how they got in Heaven in the first place. I know it. You just don't know it.

Will you answer it or avoid it again? Yes or No.

***Yes. Mt. 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." This verse shows us that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. That is how they got in Heaven in the first place. I know it. You just don't know it.

I won't argue scripture any longer. If you won't answer the above question,

***You aren't quoting much Scripture in defense of your position, just your own words or the words of ken@bsc.net. You let Ken argue your position for you, and he was not able to prove it. You had better help him out.

you don't believe Jesus own words. It's as simple as that.

***I believe every word in the original editions of the Bible. I wish you did. Get ready and stay ready, for you may find out soon that you were sold a bill of goods that was wrong. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

God bless, Claud

Incoming Email

I haven't written in some time...and hope this find you well and you situation improved since I wrote last. I was read in the book of Revelation and came across one of those verses that makes you double take...rub your chin and say ummm....Please take a look at Rev. chptr.20 verse10 and walk through this with if you will...it says the devil will be thrown in a lake of fire, and tormented forever and ever...which if taken literally means etnerity, but DAY AND NIGHT are time and space measurements. You don't measure eternity which is outside of time and space with a finite measurment. On closer inspection of this interperatation of forever and ever, I find instead the greek eons and eons, which is within a time demension...which indicates that Satan is going to tried until he shines again? I have a hard time with this...it goes against what I've learned all my christian life...I want you to take a closer look at this and see what you can see..as I respect your Word mining efforts. Thanks so much Gods Blessings

My reply

The time that the Beast and False Prophet had already been tormented in the fire was 1000 years. Day and night are not ever to cease. Gen. 8:22 says, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease." Psa. 78:69 mentions "the earth which he hath established for ever." Isa. 60:21 says, "Thy people (Israelites) also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever." Psa. 89:36,37 says of David, "His seed (Christ) shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven." Heb. 1:8,12 says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever....thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." There is no end in sight. Agape

Incoming Email

I read your posts today, responding to incoming mail from Claud Lowe and S.R. Shearer. Shearer used the following words, when stating his view of the two witnesses in Revelation: "absurd, unreasonable, sheer idiocy, borders on the absurd." These words were used to describe the view that the two witnesses are two people. I do not understand how someone who reads Revelation 11:3-12 can come to the conclusion that the two witnesses are anything but two people. And using the words that I listed above caused me to wince in my spirit. I cannot frame something felt in the spirit very well in words. It mystifies me that those in Christ are not fervently looking every day for His appearance in the sky, listening for His shout, accompanied by a voice of an archangel and the loud trumpet. Why, oh why would any blood-bought child of God, want to remain on this earth for any part of the trouble to come? If you loved someone so much that you wanted nothing more than to be in their presence, to look upon them, to hear their voice, and to have their favor, why would you not long for their appearance with all your heart? I just cannot understand it. I, for one, am looking up, now, today, and praying that I will be worthy to escape to my Lord. Keep up your good work. You handle your sword most skillfully. Love to you

My reply

Thanks. I do the best I can to help them see the truth. I can't help it if some are "dull of hearing" (Heb. 5:11). One more email came from Claud, but I am unable to answer it, because it disappeared when I tried to place it in a different folder, maybe because he is not listening?
He thinks that Mt. 24 says that immediately after the tribulation, the Rapture will take place. It doesn't actually say that. Verse 29 places the time at the breaking of the sixth seal, when the smoke will darken the sun and moon and the "stars shall fall from heaven" (See. Rev. 6:12-17). Verse 30 is the Sign of the Son of Man, seen when the smoky heavens are rolled back like a scroll after the sixth seal is broken.

Then v. 31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." Mt. 24:31 does not say that they are gathered from the Earth, but from HEAVEN.

To get the whole picture, we have to look at Mk. 13:27. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven." Here, we find out that the Tribulation saints are raptured at the same time that the saints that have been taken to Heaven previously are gathered to the "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (Heb. 12:23).

There is no way he can understand Mt. 24:28. That requires interpretation for understanding. It says, "For wheresoever the carcase (body, i.e., the Body of Christ) IS (it is in Heaven), there will (future tense) the eagles (high-flying Tribulation saints) be gathered together."

Isa. 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings AS EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint." Rev. 12:2 says, And to the woman were given two wings of a great EAGLE, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place." To me, it seems clear that the eagles represent the Tribulation saints, coming out of "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14).

Nu. 10:4 says of the two silver assembly trumpets, "if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes ('elders,' Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee." The antitype is the Pre-Trib Rapture at the FIRST TRUMP.

Verse 3 says, "when they shall blow with them (plural, i.e., both) ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door." Mt. 24:31 says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." That is blowing one trump AGAIN. It was blown the FIRST time at the Pre-Trib Rapture. Now it is blown AGAIN to call the heavenly group to the Grand Assembly on Coronation Day.

Mk. 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven." This adds blowing the LAST TRUMP to call up the Tribulation saints to the Judgment Seat of Christ.

So the FIRST TRUMP calls up the saints from Earth at the Pre-Trib Rapture. That same trumpet is blown again to gather these saints in Heaven to the Grand Assembly. THEN the LAST TRUMP calls up from Earth the Tribulation saints at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. ALL saints, "small and great," are present before the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rev. 11:18). Looking up. Agape

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