Pro and Con 42, uploaded 12-10-97

Incoming Email

In Genesis God makes darkness and light on the first day. How could he do that without the Sun? Genesis said "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"?. On day 4 he made the "Heavenly bodies" and the 2 great lights, the "Sun" and the "Moon". It was then that the "heanenly bodies existed". I understand that most people say that in verse 2 Genesis says that the earth BECAME void.

My reply

The Earth is old. It became waste and desolation because an asteroid struck it. The sun existed long before the week of Genesis. So did the planets and stars. There is a chance that the moon was just blasted out of the Earth a little before Adam was created. See my file at: http://www.kiwi.net/~mjagee/catast.html

The reason the sun, moon, and other heavenly bodies could not be seen was probably smoke from the asteroid impact that scooped the moon out of our Pacific Basin. The week in Genesis, the Lord refreshed the Earth to make it a fit habitat again.

There are two different words used. Bara means create a new thing. Asah means make from existing materials. Bara is only used in Genesis 1 in verses 1, 21, and 27. It is also used in 2:3,4. Other times, the word asah is used.

In Gen. 1:3, "Let there be light" was not creating light itself, but letting it come down to Earth by blowing away the smoke. The "Spirit (i.e., wind) of God MOVED upon the face (surface) of the waters."

"Let there be lights in the firmament (expanse of space) of the heaven to divide the day from the night" was when those lights became visible.
****
> Do you have an understanding as to when RAHAB was blown from the
> firmanent in space in the midst of the stones of fire? Was RAHAB
> blown away when Satan tempted EVE? Or was RAHAB blown away before day 1
> in Genesis all together? Or was RAHAB blown away between day 4 and 6?
****
Rahab was split apart to form our Asteroid Belt before God said, "Let there be light."
****
> I don't understand because earth was supposed to hae been destroyed along with RAHAB.
****
Why? Only a piece of Rahab hit Earth. Life was destroyed upon Earth. Water covered the whole Earth, but soon ran "unto one place" (the Pacific Basin) so dry land could appear. This was "the gathering together of the waters" (Gen. 1:10). Earth itself was not destroyed, but molded like clay is punched down on the potter's bench.
****
> This would mean that RAHAB was destroyed before day 1, but that would be before
> there were heavenly bodies(day 4). Whats your interpretation?
> Also, in Enoch the throne of the "head of days"(Jesus?), or was that
> God?..was mentioned. It agrees with the bible in that it describes a fiery radiance
> encircling the throne, but it sounds awfully weird. It also mentions a portal opening up
> to show space to Enoch. He says a crystal house and then sees the bigger house which is
> the radiant throne. It is on fire and lightnings go by(orbits). Its clear the wherever
> he is he's not on earth(he describes cheribum).
> Anyway, do you have any knowledge about Enoch and the Book of Enoch?
****
I have read it, but stick to the Bible until you know it better.
****
> Your a very dedicated individual and I thank you for your attention to all the people who
> must email you. Your book "heaven found" helped me to udnerstand what Im seeing
> happening(# of things)). I didn't understand it. YOu've also helped me in my
> relationship with christ. You helped me to realize that his word is most important,
> not what I want to study. The bible has opened up now, everything in it is a testimony of his
> glory. HIs word is eternal. For all to see, and I hope that people can see his word, it
> doesn't look like there's much time left. IM going to chruch now. Being with
> other christians is what God wanted us to do. We should share his glory and word.
> Learning thorugh christ is what we need to do now. I ask him to help me..to open me up to his
> word and what is right. For along time i've had trouble with sin, and im looking to him
> for hlep now. I pray that I can share his word openly to other oeople. I've always
> been quiet. I want to share it and work the holy spirtit. Pray that I can reach it. Pray
> that I can go beyond what is hurting me
****
Let go of any root of bitterness. Forgive as Christ forgives you, and forget it. It only hurts you.
****
> Pray that I can commit myself and forget the things that bind. We need to pray for
> people now, fellowship. We need to seperate from the things that bind and hold us back.
> Its these things that Satan and his rebellers know will hinder humans.
> God bless you Agee and go in the spirit all the way.
****
I'm doing my best to do just that.

Incoming Email

a quick question. What are you going to be doing around rapture time? Business as usual? Praying? Confesssing sin? I'm really interested in your response. Now having a better grasp on timing, it's kind of nerve-racking in a good sort of way! Anyway, I look forward to your response.

My reply

There is a special reward for those teaching when he returns. Hope it will work out that way. I'm trying my best to stay ready right now. R. B. Thieme said that we would only earn rewards for things done when filled with the Holy Spirit. God is agape love (charity, in the KJV). I Cor. 13:3 says, "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." We need to get on the stick, as they say. So little time, so much to be done.

Incoming Email

I am on your site right now and reminded again what a great site you have. You have a lot of good and thought-provoking "stuff." Keep up the good work!

Incoming Email

I've just read you web page telling of the destruction of Satan's Planet and the events that followed.

I'd like to ask how this fits into your picture: The Book of Genesis actually contains two creation stories... The first story states that God created the world, including man (as a generic term), in seven "days". He created light and dark, seas and earth, with the use of the Pacific basin, then He created life...animals...THEN created man on the sixth day...then rested.

Later in the Book of Genesis, God creates Adam of his own image, breaths life into "the Man", now used as a specific noun, places him in the Garden, yet he was lonely. So God THEN created the animals a brought them one by one in front of "the Man" so that he may name them. Adam was still lonely, so God took a rib and around it formed Eve.

There are certainly two creation stories in the Book of Genesis. If God began the first a few weeks after the crumbling of Rahab, when, do you think, does the second creation begin?

I love talking and learning about this. It's one of my family's hobbies, if you will. Please email me when you get the chance. Thank you.

My reply

In Genesis, there are two creations, but the first is of the heavens and the earth. That was back in the dateless past. The second is when God refreshed the earth an made it a fit habitat and put Adam upon it. In between the two, Earth had become waste and desolate from a catastrophe, as far as I can tell, the one that scooped the Moon out of the Pacific Basin.

During "creation week," the waters were "gathered together unto one place" and the dry land appeared (Gen. 1:9). Before this, it seems that the waters covered the Earth, and to expose dry land, the Lord dug out the place for the water to run into.

There are two accounts that tell about Adam's creation, but the second one just fills in details not covered the first time. In Gen. 1:27 "male and female created he them." Both Adam and Eve, plus animals, were created the sixth day. In Gen. 2:7-22, details of how this was done are given. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life...And Adam gave names to all cattle (etc.)...And the LORD God...took one of his (Adam's) ribs...And the rib...made he a woman."

Incoming Email, Re: Rapture

I am very interested in your response to a question regarding inclusion(bodily) in the rapture. You said after you are saved you need to remain spotless. I am a sinner every day of my life. We all sin everyday and I am confused that you say we have to remain spotless thru confession to be able to make the rapture. We are saved thru our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. The odds are that most people will, because sin is still indwelt, not have the ablility to confess all sins some of which we are not cognizant of, if the rapture were to take place this moment. I am a born again Christian man that, based on scripture, feels as though the Lord will take me in that blessed event. However, I wonder if I or most people will be spotless based on our ability to be in constant confession. Is my faith in Christ not enough? In Christ,

My reply

In a nutshell, this is what the lukewarm Laodicean foolish virgins need to know today.

First, salvation is not an issue here. Faith in Christ is enough for salvation. Every believer will eventually make it to Heaven. But, remember that Paul was working for a "prize." He could not lose his salvation, but he mentioned the possibility of being a "castaway" (I Cor. 9:27).

There are two Raptures. The one of the Bride of Christ is the Pre-Trib Rapture (Rev. 4:1). The one of the rest of the Body of Christ is the Pre-Wrath Rapture (Rev. 7:14). This was pictured by Adam's bride being taken out of his body.

Between these two Raptures is Revelation 6. It begins with the Beast riding forth as a prince of peace and ends with, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" The second Rapture takes place between the breaking of the sixth seal of Rev. 6:12 and the opening of the seventh seal in Rev. 8:1.

There is a chance of being left behind, spewed out of His mouth (Rev. 3:16), the first time if Christians do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit for their lamps to be seen from afar. Mt. 25:10 says, "And while they (the foolish virgins) went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were READY went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." Notice that in Rev. 7:14, those that come out of great tribulation have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They were not ready the first time. We are told to be filled with the Holy Spirit and not to quench the Holy Spirit for a very good reason, so we will be READY.

Luke 13:25 speaks of those whose lamps are going out: "When once the master of the house (Church) is risen up, and hath shut to the door (taken the Bride of Christ in the first Rapture), and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence (from what place) ye are." It is as if he has to see their bright lights from afar. In Luke 12:35-37, he tell them to "Let your loins be girded about, and your LIGHTS BURNING; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return FROM THE WEDDING; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." The foolish virgins will have missed the Marriage of the Lamb, but they will be invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Verse 37 says "that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

We are not told how much oil of the Holy Spirit we have to have, but the safe thing to do is try to do what Scripture tells us to do, be filled. How we do that is by using I John 1:9, confessing our KNOWN sins to God so he can "cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness." This takes care of unknown sins. Then there is no more sin barrier between us and God and we are back in fellowship with our Holy God. We are READY.

Remember how Jesus washed Peter's feet? Peter did not want Jesus to do it, but Jesus told him, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me" (John 13:8). In verse 10, he told Peter, "He that is washed ("purged from his OLD sins" at salvation, II Peter 1:9) needeth not save to WASH HIS FEET, but is clean every whit." What we need to do is let Jesus wash our feet. He is willing, but there is something that we have to do, confess the known sins we have committed after the moment of salvation.

So, to be saved, we have to confess our faith in Christ (Rom. 10:9). To be chosen as the Bride of Christ, we need to confess our known sins we have committed since we were saved. Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted WORTHY to escape all these things that shall come to pass (the Tribulation), and to stand before the Son of man." The Bride of Christ is worthy because she is ready.

Incoming Email

I saw your web page today, and the bottom line I got from it is that you think Jesus is returning physically at Pentecost, 1998.

As one who went through the Harold Camping fiasco totally believing 1994 was the time, let me be the one to gently bust your bubble. After Pentecost 1998 rolls around and we are into late 98 and 99 you are going to wonder how you could have been wrong. Just as Camping is still wondering.

The truth is that Christ's second coming is spiritual, and occurs when the Spirit of Christ, which is also called the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, comes to indwell the believer. This is when we become "born again". This is the second coming. To look for a temporal and visible coming of God, who is "invisible" and "spirit", is unfortunately the wisdom of man. It is to look for a natural God to return rather than a spiritual God. It is to look for a visible, temporal end of the world, rather than an eternal and spiritual end of the world. It is to see the letter of the Word and not the spirit, but Paul said the "letter kills" andd the "spirit gives life".

When Christ said "it is finished" he meant it. Hebrews 10:9 says he "takes away the first that he might establish the second". That is, he took away the first covenant of works and established the second covenant of grace. This was the "end of the world", because the world typifies the old covenant. When we are "crucufied with Christ" and experience "the power of his resurrection", as Paul taught, then the end of the world has come to us as well. It is the end of our time under the old covenant and the beginning of our time in the new covenant. That is why Paul said "Christ is the END of the law for righteousness to those that believe", and Jesus said "I am the beginning and the end", and the "first and the last".

Now the sign of salvation is not that we suddenly become "good Christians", doing all kinds of good works. After all, the Pharisees excelled at that, yet Christ called them "lawyers", because they trusted that their keeping of the law would get them into heaven. The only sign of true salvation is a spiritual understanding of Scripture, and that requires understanding that all Scripture, without exception, applies equally to all true Christians who have ever lived, despite their age, sex, culture, or anything at all about them. But the only way we can see that is to "compare spiritual things to spiritual", per God's command in 1 Corinthians 2. You have not yet done this.

Anyway, I don't expect you to understand what I have written to you just now, but it may be that at some time in the future, your "change" will come, from "old" to "new", from first to second, from natural to spiritual, and you will begin to see God "face to face" like Jacob, and your life will be "preserved" (made eternal) as Jacob's was. Then you will realize that Christ is already come for those that can see the "spirit" of the Word, and that he has not yet come for those that see only the "letter", and who are so concerned about temporal things such as calendars and timelines and datesetting. I know, because I was right where you are - I know what a torment trying to keep the law can be!

My reply

> As one who went through the Harold Camping fiasco totally
> believing 1994 was the time, let me be the one to gently bust
> your bubble.

I have known the timing of the major end time events ever since 1968. I knew Hal Lindsey was wrong about 1988, and I knew Camping was wrong about 1994. A thousand could be wrong and that doesn't make the next one wrong.

> The truth is that Christ's second coming is spiritual,
> and occurs when the Spirit of Christ, which is also called the
> Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, comes to
> indwell the believer. This is when we become "born again". This
> is the second coming.

Gee! I must have missed the newspaper accounts of the mountain burning with fire that struck the Mediterranean Sea, the star burning with fire that destroyed Babylon on the Euphrates River, the worldwide earthquake in which all walls fell down, and of so many men being killed that a child could write the number of the survivors.

When Jesus' feet touch down on the Mt. of Olives it will split in two (Zech 14:4). That has not yet happened.

I am not trying to keep the law. Not one was ever able to do that. I am simply trusting Christ as my Saviour and working to win the "prize" of the "high calling of God" in the first Rapture.

His reply

Thank you for taking the time to read my note and for sending me a reply. The natural tendency of most people is to get angry when someone disagrees with them, especially over long held and cherished beliefs. I was once a five point Calvinist, very ardent in my belief, but I discovered to my chagrin that I was really a "lawyer" who could see only the "body of sin" and not the "glorious body". I could see the letter of the Word, as any natural person can, but I could not see the spirit of the Word, as only the spiritual man can, or "new man". I thought I understood spiritual things, but they turned out to be merely natural things, temporal things, "morals", do's and don'ts for my flesh, rather than for my spirit.

Let me reply to your points.

1. You say you have known the timing of the end since 1968. Camping claimed to have known the timing for twenty years before he wrote his book. I would suppose that you have been asking for "wisdom" regarding this matter since 1968, as per James 1:5-8.In these verses God says that he will give wisdom, or truth, to anyone who asks, unless they are "double minded". Therefore, if Pentecost 98 rolls around and Christ does not come, either God is a liar and does not give truth to saved people who ask for it as he claims, or you are by definition "double minded". I would make this same argument to Camping as well to prove he is still "carnally minded" rather than "spiritually minded". So keep this in mind if yur prediction does not come true.

2. you say "when Jesus feet touch down on the Mt. of Olives it will split in two. (Zech 14:4) That has not yet happened". It is true it has not happened physically, and it is typical of the natural man to look for a visible, physical, temporal fulfillment of prophecy, something he or she can see with the natural eye, and hear with the natural ear. But God commands us to "compare spiritual things with spiritual" in 1 Corinthians 2:13, and God defines spiritual things as those things which are invisible ("not seen") and "eternal". Therefore, a physical Jesus standing on the literal Mt. of Olives is not a spiritual event, but a natural one, and therefore the letter of the Word, and not the Spirit. But this prophecy was most certainly fulfilled by Christ at the Cross, when he said "it is finished". He had taken away the first covenant that he might establish the second covenant as per Hebrews 10:9-10. This was the splitting, or the "dividing" of the Mt. of Olives. It was the "dividing" of the body of Christ, into natural and spiritual bodies. When we partake of his death and resurrection, we do the same thing - we divide the Mount of Olives , a shadow of "rightly dividing the Word of Truth", that is of seeing the Spirit in the Word, and rejecting the letter of the Word.

To say that Zech. 14:4 has not yet happened yet is to make Christ a liar. He said in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." Here Christ claims he came to fulfill Zechariah 14:4. If he did not, then he is most assuredly a liar and no God. More to the point is Christ's claim in Luke 24:44 Jesus said "... that ALL THINGS must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and THE PROPHETS and the Psalms concerning me." Now, did Zechariah 14:4 "concern" Christ? You say it did, yet you say it was NOT fulfilled, making Jesus a liar and therefore not worthy of worship. He said he did fulfill Zech 14:4. You say he did not.

This is how you should see the other physical events you describe as not having happened yet. Babylon WAS destroyed at the Cross, because Babylon is a type of the old covenant, MYSTERY BABYLON, as the Word is a MYSTERY to the natural man who "cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God" that are contained in it. For the spiritual man, the "mystery of God is finished" (Revelation 10:6) andd "time is no longer", that is the "new man" interprets Scripture soiritually rather than temporally.

I would just suggest a few more things to you. They may seem bizarre to you at first, "foolishness" as it were, but perhaps after Pentecost 98 you will consider some of them. The Rapture is a spiritual not a physical event. Each time we open the Word, if we have the "mind of Christ", we will see spiritual truths. This is what God has in view when he talks about being caught up in the air with Christ. To see the Spirit of the Word rather than the letter is to be caught up with Christ and all the saints. It is to be caught up to the third heaven like Paul, or to be taken up in a "whirlwind" (the Holy Spirit) into Heaven.

When the Bible says there "are two men in one bed, one will be taken and the other left" Luke 17:34, it is speaking to our study of Scripture. The bed is the Word, the two men are the two covenants, old and new, first and second. They are the "old man" and the "new man", or the letter and the Spirit of the Word. If we interpret Scripture spiritually, then the "old man" or letter of the Word is "taken away" and the "new man" or spirit of the Word is "left", or "remains". If we interpret naturally and temporally, then the opposite is true, and the letter of the Word "kills" us.

When Christ walked the earth, anyone could see him physically, Jew or Gentile, because his body was a shadow of the letter of the Word, which anyone can see. When he arose from the grave, only believers saw him, see Acts 10:41. This is a picture of the spirit of the Word, which only the born again believer can see. Therefore if you are seeing the same things in Scripture as unbelievers, you are seeing the letter vice the spirit. Now even the Catholics are looking for a physical return of Christ, and a Rapture. So are some Moslems! Therefore you should realize that something is wrong with your interpretation.

Well, that's enough for now. I hope you have at least taken the time to read this letter. It is not important whjether you agree with me or not. Thanks for your time!

My reply

I don't get angry with what people say. They just do not understand, and I do what I can to help them understand. Christ died for them. We need to draw them in, not drive them away.

You are spiritualizing away the scriptures. If Jesus came literally the first time, he will come literally the second time. If Babylon was literally done away with before, it will literally be done away with again. All Old Testament prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, only part of them have. Those that have to do with the end times are being fulfilled in our days.

When Camping said he expected Christ to come in 1994, did that change the scriptures? No. Camping was just wrong. Why did that change your mind about the scriptures? It should have had nothing at all to do with it. Paul said, "O FOOLISH Galatians, who hath bewitched you." Don't you be swayed by "another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ" (Gal. 1:6,7)

  Pro and Con 43

Or Return
Home


Contact me for more information. My e-mail address is: mjagee@kiwi.net

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960


© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 12-10-97