Pro and Con 421

Uploaded 11-12-99

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More on ASTRA (Rahab) from Graham Hancock's THE MARS MYSTERY...pg 47

"What set the Martian crust in motion and its axis rocking, and snuffed out its magnetic field and drastically slowed its rate of spin? Was it the same event that brutally cratered the south of the planet and scalped the north down to a depth of three kilometers? And when did these things happen?

***From Marilyn: Thanks. As you know, I am keenly interested in things like this. Mars also lost most of its water and atmosphere. It acquired scads of angular rocks strewn across its face too. When? hard to be certain, but something happened to Earth too. In Genesis 1:2, darkness, probably from smoke, was still upon the face of the deep on Earth. By v. 10 the waters were just then running into "one place" so the dry land could appear. A catastrophe here seems to happened not long before 4044/43 BC. However, there seems to have been an earlier one, about 11,000 years ago, that froze the mammoths.

Patten and Windsor suggest that many of the answers lie with their hypothetical tenth planet, ASTRA. Such a body could certainly have disturbed the orbit of Mars -- and slowed down its spin -- if, as supposed, it had exploded inside the planet's Roche limit.

***From where the Asteroid Belt orbits now, I would think that the planet exploded in that vicinity. Mars probably got hit by pieces thrown its way by the terrible explosion that lit up space. It will be neat to find the answers to our questions when we get to Heaven. We only get the faintest echo of what happened and have to try to figure it all out with slim clues to go on.

This is by no means an unorthodox position. Hartmann too speaks of the possibility of "a large interplanetary body "{51} entering the solar system and envisages how it might have trespassed the Roch limit of one of the planets and been "torn apart by tidal forces."{52} Where Patten and Windsor do fly in the face of conventional wisdom, however, is in their proposed chronology. They assert that the timing of the ASTRA cataclysm was "thousands of years ago, not millions."{53} SUBSEQUENTLY THEY NARROW DOWN THE WINDOW TO A PERIOD "NEITHER EARLIER THAN 15,000 BC NOR LATER THAN 3000 BC."{54} [Caps mine]

***The Earth may not be as old as some think. It's magnetic field is decreasing so rapidly (backed by over 140 years of record keeping), that extrapolating the decay backward, the magnetic field would have been 142 times what it is today only 10,000 years ago. After 21,000 years ago, it could have been enough to blow Earth apart.

In their important study WHEN THE EARTH NEARLY DIED, D.S. Allen and J.B. Delair also propose a massive interplanetary visitor -- to which they give the name Phaethon. Like Patten and Windsor, they believe that its appearance was extremely recent and that it passed close to Mars and Earth approximately 11,500 years ago.{55} As to the precise nature of the object, they suggest that "Phaethon was spawned in an astronomically- near supernova explosion," and that Phaethon was a portion of exploded astral matter."{56}

Other authorities who make a related case include the eminent Oxford University astronomer Victor Cube and his colleague William Napier whose extraordinary work we will examine in Part 4. They present evidence that a giant interstellar comet wandered into the solar system and began to fragment less than 20,000 years ago spreading ruin among the planets.{57}...

Incidentally, I am not bringing this to your attention as a "justification" of your Scriptural research; rather, I am convicted that Scripture justifies the research, however incomplete and flawed, that these scientists have done. Beyond that, knowing that you understand the science behind all this, I hope that the material is of some interest to you. As for myself, Velikovsky fan that I am, I find your conclusions, this research, and Velikovsky's thoughts on the matter absolutely fascinating.

***I found Velikovsky very interesting reading, but disagree with him on some things. Have to give him credit for trying hard to unravel the mystery, though. It isn't an easy task.

***There are other strange things in our Solar System. Venus spins clockwise on its axis, when all the other planets spin counterclockwise. Pluto sometimes comes inside Neptune's orbit. The axis of Uranus is tilted at a 98 degree angle. It travels on its side as it orbits the Sun. Our Moon circles around its orbit in 29.5 days. Saturn circles around its orbit in 29.5 years. I'd like to know more about past history of the Solar System.

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WORDWON@cs.com wrote: WORD WON BIBLE PROPHECY TIME LINE

"time shall be no more" - ETERNITY ("future")
King of Kings: LORD! - New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem
Angels @ Judgment - Goats, "I never knew you": Lake of Fire

***The "sheep" and "goats" at the Judgment of the Nations are people, not angels, who have already been judged. Mt. 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (Second Advent)...then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and he shall separate them...as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats...Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the sheep), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." I expect this judgment to take place right after the full 2520 days of the Tribulation end.

Messiah/Judge - Judgment: 2 sections: Bema & White Throne

***The Bema is the Judgment Seat of Christ. I expect it on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, on the Day of God's Wrath. Rev. 11:17-18 says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and has reigned (it is Coronation Day). And the nations were angry (the united nations's army led by Gog is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

***The Judgment of the Nations is 7 1/2 months later. The Great White Throne Judgment is at the end of the Millennium.

MESSIAH/KING RETURNS - Rapture; physical creation on fire...

***I think the Rapture of the church saints is before the Tribulation, the Rapture of the Tribulation saints on the Day of God's Wrath, but before the wrath hits Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4,5). Christ returns on Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21), 7 months after the day of wrath (Eze. 39:12).

Satan's little season - Satan loosed to deceive nations again
"Millennium" - 1,000 towards end: apostasy or "falling away"

***Satan is loosed for a little season at the end of the Millennium. The "falling away" is "he apostasia," the departure, the Pre-Trib Rapture.

He rules earth - through purified churches' "glory days"...

***Christ rules Earth in the Tabernacle of David until the Millennial government is set up. Then, I think we return with him to Heaven. That is our home. When we are needed here, I think we will travel back and forth. "But they (on Earth) shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, WHOM I WILL RAISE UP UNTO THEM" "And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have ONE shepherd:...my servant David shall be their prince for ever" (Eze. 37:24,25). And "we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth" (Rev. 5:10).

End of Seventy Weeks--AD 34--Stephen stoned, Saul persecuting,
Acts 8:1-5 - preacher-believers scattered from Jerusalem
Jerusalem & all Judea 3.5 yrs. many Jewish converts into new House of God
last half of 70th Week of Daniel 9

***The Seventieth Week of Daniel is still future. Within this time, the nation must be established in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS. That has not yet taken place today. Dan. 9:24 says, "Seventy weeks (of years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression (when dominion is taken from Satan at the Judgment of the Nations at the end of the 2520 days/last week of the 490 years), and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy" (Christ).

Pentecost - new House of God annointed & credentialed
"Messiah--cut off" CROSS temple veil rent, old House of God now moot
Messiah/Prophet - 3.5 yrs. Christ's public earthly ministry
first half of 70th week of Daniel 9

***The first half of the Tribulation will start with the Beast and False Prophet confirming the 7-year peace covenant. I think it will be on the Feast of Weeks in 2001.

Messiah's public start AD 26 Christ's Baptism: annointed & credentialed
end of 69th week & beginning of 70th week of Daniel 9

***I think Jesus was baptized near Tishri 1 in 26 AD. The 483 years were not over until 30 AD. God's clock stopped at the Crucifixion and has not yet restarted.

The Incarnation - BC 04 Jesus born [2000] years ago in humility...

***I think Jesus was born on Tishri 1 in 5BC.

Ezra 7 - BC 457 Decree to rebuild City of Jerusalem

***We have to figure from the Decree of Cyrus, 454 BC. (Martin Anstey found an 82 year mistake in the era of the Persian Kings). Isa. 44:28 says, "That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid."

beginning of the 70 uninterrupted weeks of years of Daniel 9...
Jerusalem made Capital BC 1004 3,000th anniversary [AD 1996]...
Birth of Jacob/Israel - Approximately 4,000 years ago

***I think Jacob was born in 1875 BC, 3873 years ago.

Creation (4,004 BC?)...

***I think the refashioning of Earth and the creation of Adam was in 4044/43 BC.

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I think that what this writer (in an earlier P & C) was trying to say is that some will be cast into outer darkness ( a place outside of the heavenly festivities for the 1000 years.) After that time the tears are wiped away and they are allowed to enter the kingdom. The soul does not go to hell but carnal fleshly living keeps them from enjoying the millennial reign of Christ. They are on the outside looking in. The soul can be brought into subjection to Christ now or it will be done for you at the judgment seat of Christ. Do it now voluntarily and earn rewards or ignore it now with carnal living and lose your rewards and soul at the judgment seat.

***Outer darkness is mentioned three times. The Greek word is "exoteros," exterior, outside of the door darkness. Mt. 8:11,12 says, "many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children (i.e., Jews of today) of the kingdom shall be cast out into OUTER DARKNESS (outside the open door set before the Philadelphians, Rev. 3:8): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

***Mt. 22:13 says of the one that had not on a wedding garment, "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into OUTER DARKNESS (outside the door); there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. For many are called, but few are chosen." The Laodiceans don't have on a wedding garment, either.

***Mt. 25:29,30 says, "For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into OUTER DARKNESS: there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

***Mt. 24:50,51 also mentions weeping and gnashing of teeth. It says, "The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him HIS PORTION (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

***This ties in with Lu. 12:46: "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his PORTION (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the unbelievers."

***These are the foolish virgins and Laodiceans. To the Laodiceans, Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the DOOR, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the DOOR, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

***We see the same picture in Song of Sol., 5:4-6: "My beloved put in his hand by the hole of THE DOOR, and my bowels were moved for him. I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh (means bitterness; it has to be crushed to bring forth its sweetness), and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock. I opened to my beloved; but my beloved had withdrawn himself, and was gone: my soul failed when he spake: I sought him, but I could not find him."

***These will not be ready in time to go in the first Rapture. That should make us see to it that we are ready now. Then there will be none of this weeping and gnashing of teeth. However, all believers will be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture to stand before the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ that same day.

I still am not sure about this subject. Some of what the writer said seems to make sense to me. Here is some additional food for thought

Exerpt from Lyn Mize:
An important concept to understand before we commence with the Scriptures on the perishing of the soul is the concept that the souls of all Christians must perish at some point in time.

***From Marilyn: I don't believe that. Heb. 10:38,39 says, "the just shall live by faith...we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that BELIEVE to the SAVING OF THE SOUL." The soul that sinneth, it shall die, but our believing in Christ saves our soul. From that moment on, our soul cannot die. The body can, the soul cannot. The spirit cannot.

***In John 10:27,28, Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them ETERNAL LIFE; AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH (apollumi, to destroy fully, to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to), neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." In John 6:37, Jesus said, "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

***Man is body, soul and spirit. The body dies because of sin. If we do not accept Christ, our soul dies at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium. That is the "second death" (Rev. 20:14). The first death is of the body. The second death is of the soul. What is left is the unregenerated "spirit of man." In hell, "their WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mk. 9:44). I Cor. 2:11 says, "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the SPIRIT OF MAN which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

We can either choose to lose our souls now, or we can wait until the Judgment Seat of Christ and lose them then.

***At the Judgment Seat of Christ, only REWARDS are handed out to believers. Rev. 11:18 says, "the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT." No one will lose their soul at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those there are of the FIRST RESURRECTION. Rev. 20:5,6 says, "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST RESURRECTION. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the SECOND DEATH hath no power." The first death is of the body, the second death of the soul. Upon those at the Judgment Seat of Christ, "the SECOND DEATH hath no power." Therefore, they cannot lose their souls--ever.

However, there are severe consequences to waiting until the Judgment Seat of Christ. Jesus Himself addressed this concept in the following Scripture:

(Mat 16:24 KJV) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Please note that Jesus is talking to His disciples. The warning that Jesus is about to give is for the regenerate. He states that they must deny or utterly disown themselves, and that they must take up the cross and follow Him. The self is the soul, and Jesus is telling His disciples that they must reject the soul or person that they are, and to follow or to come into union with Him. This means that they are to live in the same way as He lives. The only way they can do this is to kill the old self, which is the soul, and to live the life of Christ.

***The self of the believer is body, soul and spirit, and he is not supposed to commit suicide, which kills the body and leaves the soul and spirit untouched. We are unable to kill our souls.

***When preachers tell us to die to self, most use it metaphorically. A mataphor is a figure of speech in which a word or phrase literally denoting one kind of object or idea is used in place of another to suggest a likeness or analogy between them, as in the ship plows the sea. It is figurative language. We are not literally "to kill the old self, which is the soul." When we are baptized, we figuratively die with Christ and are raised up to a new life. I Pet. 1:4,9 says, God "hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible...Receiving the end of your faith, even THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS."

***Mt. 10:28 says, "fear not them which kill the BODY, BUT ARE NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Not ourselves, or any other person can kill our souls. However, God will kill the soul of the unredeemed at the time of the second death at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Numerous other Scriptures tell us how to do this. The cross is an instrument of death, and we are to kill our old self or soul. He is telling us to kill the old person or nature that is in us, and to allow Christ to live His life in us. If we do this now, the new souls or persons that we are when we get to the Judgment Seat of Christ will not perish or die, and we will receive great reward. This is the essence of the following verses:

(Mat 16:25 KJV) For whosoever will save his life (soul) shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life (soul) for my sake shall find it.

***Life here does not mean soul. It is referring to the life of the body. The word translated "lose" is appollumi, to destroy fully.

If the regenerate person continues as the same person, life or soul that he now is, then his life, soul or person will be lost when he gets to the Judgment Seat of Christ. However, if the person is willing to reject the soul or person he now is by crucifying this old flesh nature, then the new person he becomes as a result of allowing Christ to live in him will not be lost at the Judgment Seat of Christ. The word for "lose" in both instances in the above verse is the Greek word for destroy or perish Simply stated, this verse states that the soul or life of a regenerate person must either perish now, or it will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

(Mat 16:26 KJV) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

***The word for "lose" here is zemioo, to cause loss. The only way we can save our soul is by accepting Christ, and once saved, it never dies.

Jesus continues His explanation of the salvation or loss of the soul at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is important to understand that the Judgment Seat of Christ is not for the purpose of determining who enters into heaven. It is for the purpose of judging the lives or souls of Christians for the purpose of reward or chastisement.

***The Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers--for rewards, not chastisement. Those that are chastised are the unbelievers left on Earth. God's Wrath is cast on them.

In this verse, Jesus states that the Christian who lives according to the old self or soul will "lose his own soul" when the time for judgment comes. Jesus then makes the point through the use of a rhetorical question that there is no profit for a person to gain the wealth of the whole world and lose his own soul at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

***But Jesus did not add "at the Judgment Seat of Christ," Lyn did.

He then brings it down to a more realistic situation and asks what a man will give up or lose to save his own soul. Esau gave up his soul or inheritance for a bowl of stew. Reuben gave up his soul or inheritance for sensual pleasure with his father's concubine. The parallel passage in Mark 8:36-38 is even more tragic.

***I think Reuben lost his double portion of his father's things, but that does not necessarily mean that he lost his soul. Rev. 7:5 says, "Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Since Dan is left out, that may be a pretty good indicator.

***Of the original 12 apostles, Judas was lost, and Paul replaced him. Of the original 12 sons of Jacob, I wonder if it is a similar situation. Dan is left out in Rev. 7 and "Manasses" took his place.

(Mark 8:36-38 KJV) (36) For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (37) Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Many Christians will lose their souls (i.e., perish) at the Judgment Seat of Christ simply because they were ashamed to be associated with Christ and His Words.

***I don't think any at the Judgment Seat of Christ will lose their souls. If they have not accepted Christ, they will not be at the Judgment Seat of Christ at all. Their judgment will await the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium.

These are the ones described in Rev. 21:8 as being fearful to exercise their faith. They are Christians, but they are too embarrassed to speak up for Christ or the Word of God.

(Mat 16:27 KJV) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

***The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place in Heaven. I think the Judgment of the Nations takes place 7.5 months later on Earth.

This summation verse shows that the whole passage pertains to rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and not whether a person goes to heaven or hell.

Now that we have seen that it is regenerated people whose souls will perish,

***It is the soul of the regenerated that will be saved and never die.

and this simply means that they will change from people of a depraved character and state into a people of a different state. The following passage of Scripture confirms that the current heavens and earth will also perish, or be changed or transformed from one state of being under the curse to a state of redemption and freedom from the curse. This verse also gives us the Biblical definition of perish. It means to be changed from one state into another state.

(Heb 1:8-12 KJV) (8) But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (9) Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (10) And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (11) They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; (12) And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed (i.e.,transformed or made different): but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Tha above verse helps us to understand that the Biblical definition of the word perish means to be transformed.

***The word translated "perish" in Heb. 1:11 is apollumi, destroy.

Thus, the person who has been spiritually regenerated must allow his soul to be transformed into a person who is controlled by the Holy Spirit. The following passage of Scripture speaks of this transformation:

(Rom 12:1-2 KJV) (1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

***It is the spirit that knows. It is the spirit that needs to be born again. The soul wills and feels emotion. It is saved by the new birth of the spirit.

Our body is what is used to manifest or display our lives. Our souls or lives are lived in our bodies, and other people know what we are as persons by the actions of our bodies. What comes out of our mouths in the form of speech manifests that which is in our hearts or minds. The work that we do is manifested by our hands, and our walk in the flesh or the spirit is manifested by our legs and our feet. Our bodies are the mediums through which we live our lives. The soul of a person is reflected in the actions of the body. Consequently, when we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, we are losing our souls, and our selves are transformed by the renewing of our minds.

***When we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, we are NOT losing our souls.

The mind is one aspect of the soul. Paul is explaining how we must devote our bodies to the service of the Lord in order to save our souls at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If we do this now in our Christian life, then our souls will not perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ. On the other hand, if we do not do this now, our souls will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ and we will experience the death of the soul.

***We are to devote ourselves to the service of the Lord, but that is not what saves our souls. Our faith in Christ saves our souls.

The above was an exerpt from Lyn Mize and while I do not agree with some of his work, this does seem to make sense to me. Thanks for your input. This is a tough subject and I can find no clear cut answer. You have made an excellent point but so have the others offering interpretation of the word on this subject.

***Lyn just mixes things up a bit here. From reading what he has written before, I know that he really believes that Salvation is a free gift, but that we can work for rewards. That is true. It is just when he gets into souls perishing at the Judgment Seat of Christ that he doesn't get all his facts straight.

***I think what Lyn really wanted to bring out is contained in Eph. 4:22-25: "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another."

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