Pro and Con 423

Uploaded 11-12-99

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I read this in today's posting of Astronomy Now: Breaking News:
"Earth is headed for a close encounter with the orbit of a newly discovered comet...found by...(LINEAR) team on May 12th...On November 11, 1999 at 1941 UT, earth will arrive at a point in space just 0.0115 AU from the orbit of the comet, 40 days after the comet itself was in the area...Lenearid meteors--if they materialize--will appear to emanate from the bowl of the Big Dipper."

Thought you would find this interesting, as the Big Dipper is also Ursa Major, described by Bullinger as the fold and the flock, whose stars have, among others, the meaning of: "assembled together, redeemed, ransomed, company of travellers, coming and going, the sheepfold set or appointed."

Another occurrence in the heavens that uplifts our hearts. My prayers and love

My reply

Thanks, I had heard about the new comet, but not your information about the Greater Sheepfold...It is interesting that a star in the Greater Sheepfold means "company of travellers" since Argo, the ship where the new star, Nova Velorum, appeared May 22, 1999, also means "the company of travellers."

There is a difference between the "SIGNS in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit., constellations)" of Lu. 21:25 and the sun and moon being "DARKENED" in Mt. 24:29 and Mk. 13:24. In Isa. 13: 9,10, we see that when "the day of the LORD (the Millennium) cometh...the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."

After the sixth seal is broken in Rev. 6:12, as the Day of God's Wrath (first day of the Millennium) is coming, "the sun became black...and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth." That is when things really begin to happen.

However, before the seven-year Tribulation even begins, we are to watch for the SIGNS in the sun, moon and constellations. We had the largest ever gamma ray burster in the tip of the spear of Bootes (meaning "to come" and its star Arcturus meaning "he cometh") on Jan. 23, 1999, 49 years after the first official meeting of the Knesset declared Jerusalem the capitol of Israel on Jan. 23, 1950. Then the new comet was found May 12, 1999, and the new star appeared May 22, 1999.

Lu. 21:28 says, "And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." Keep watching. The coming of the Lord approaches. It is interesting to watch things unfold before our eyes. Oh, yes, the lineup of the main mass of the solar system is coming May 5, 2000. Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Uranus, Saturn and the moon will all be in the vicinity of the sun.

The last Perseid meteor shower was when I saw the very thick and long straight line directly overhead at what seemed like something between the height at which the pilots practice their "Touch and Goes" over our house out of March Reserve Air Base and the height that the Blue Angels fly in their air shows. That was something I never expected to see in my whole life. Looking up, the snow white line looked about as thick as my little finger did when held overhead. I saw the meteor burn out too. The whole thing was spectacular. I saw one other little arc out in the distance. It was more like what I expected to see. Instead, I got a real treat. (Tonight, 11-12, I saw one long thin streak overhead.)

PS: Lu. 21:11 says, "great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and GREAT SIGNS SHALL THERE BE FROM HEAVEN."

Also, I have been looking at Mk. 14:38. It goes with Lu. 21:36's "pray always, thay ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things" and is really appropriate for our days. It says, "Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation (pierasmos, trial, i.e., the Tribulation). The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak."

Hidden in the account of Jesus' prayers just before he was arrested is good advise for us today. He prayed THREE TIMES. He told three of the elders of Rev. 4:4, Peter, James and John, "TARRY YE HERE, AND WATCH," went forward a little and prayed. "And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour? Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak." He went away and prayed again. "And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy...And HE COMETH THE THIRD TIME, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your REST: it is enough, the hour is come...RISE UP, LET US GO" (Mk. 14:33-42).

They did not get to sleep the third time, because it was then time to go. Yet, he said, "take your REST." We will rest in Heaven. Psa. 149:5 says, "Let the saints be joyful IN GLORY: let them sing aloud upon their BEDS."

In Heb. 4:1-11, we find information about God's rest. Verses 5-11 say, "my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST TO THE PEOPLE OF GOD. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. LET US LABOUR THEREFORE TO ENTER INTO THAT REST, LEST ANY MAN FALL AFTER THE SAME EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF."

The only time here that the word translated "rest" is the Greek "sabbatismos" is in v. 9, "There remaineth therefore a REST to the people of god." I always thought it was referring to the seventh millennium, but like many scriptures, it may have a double fulfillment. The writer said, "Let US (brethren, believers) labour therefore to enter into that rest."

Note: II Thess. 1:6,7,11 says, "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled REST with us, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED (at the Rapture) from heaven with his mighty angels....Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you WORTHY OF THIS CALLING."

Next Sivan 7, 5760 (June 10, 2000), is when Pentecost has fully come. It is the 7th day of the week in the 7th of the 7 good years that started with the signing of the Oslo Accords on Sept. 13, 1993. That is 7,7,7, and 7 means completion. It seems to be the THIRD year of the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree and the SEVENTH of the seven good years. Is that why Nu. 19:12 says, "He shall purify himself with it ("the water of separation," v. 9) on the third day, and on the seventh day he shall be clean: but if he purify not himself the third day, then the seventh day he shall not be clean"? Was this to prefigure the third on one series falling on the seventh of another series in our days? Food for thought.

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Re: WORD WON BIBLE PROPHECY TIME LINE, WORDWON@cs.com
Thank you for making this extensive effort to reply to the chart. In general I think that at a number of places you have made dogmatic statements without Bible proofs establishing your key points. I will put my replies to you this time in [brackets].
> Angels @ Judgment - Goats, "I never knew you": Lake of Fire

>***Marilyn: The "sheep" and "goats" at the Judgment of the Nations are people, not angels, who have already been judged.

True. I did not intend to infer by the chart that the sheep and goats were angels. What I wanted to connect was that the timing of the judgment of angels will be very close to the timing of the General Judgment of all humans. The notion that the sheep and goat judgment is a special category called the Judgment of Nations in distinction from one or more other judgments of people that should not be called the Judgment of Nations is an old standard with Premillennialists. There is nothing in the texts specifying that the Judgment pictured by the sheep and goats is different in time or classes present than the Judgment of humans pictured in other Scriptures.

[This Premillennial insistence on calling this the Judgement of Nations infers. it seems, that whole nations as nations all go one way or another, such as, Germany: Heaven; Japan: Hell..."All Nations" come to The Judgment so that each citizen of each of them may be judged appropriately. "Some from every tribe and nation will be there" with the sheep going to Heaven.

...SCRIPTURES ON JUDGMENT...

Matthew 16:27 The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then shall He render to every man according to his deeds....

John 5:26-29 For as the Father hath life in himself: so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this, for the hour is coming,in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice 29 And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation....

Matthew 12:41-42 The men of Ninevah shall rise with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south* shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon;and behold, a greater than Solomon is here. (*Sheba, Yemen)

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats: And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [blessed/ accursed; hungry /naked /prison] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal....

II Thessalonians 1:6-10 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of His power...

Matthew 13:27-30; 47-50 (from Aramaic) So the servants of the landowner came and said to him, Our lord, behold, did you not sow good seed in your field; whence did the tares come into it? He said to them, An enemy did this. His servants then said to him, Do you want us to go and pull them out? But he said to them, It might happen that while you were pulling out the tares, you might uproot with them also the wheat. Let them both grow together until the harvest; and at the harvest season, I will say to the reapers, Pick out first the tares, and bind them into bundles to be burned; but gather the wheat into my barns. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea, and it gathered fish of every kind. When it was filled, they drew it to shore, and sat down and sorted them; the good ones they put into bags, and the bad they threw away. So will it be at the end of the world; the angels will go out and separate the bad from among the righteous. And will throw them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear./see [13:42-43]

Matthew 25:19-30 After a long time, the lord of those servants cometh and reckoneth with them. [faithful rewarded; unprofitable: outer darkness]...

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Revelation 14:6-7

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12...

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10

"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." Romans 14:10

"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" John 5:22...

>***Mt. 25:31-34 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory (Second Advent)...then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered ALL NATIONS: and he shall separate them...as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats...Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand (the sheep), Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." I expect this judgment to take place right after the full 2520 days of the Tribulation end.

[I agree that The Judgment comes directly after the Great Tribulation. That is the same time period as Satan's Little Season, Revelation 20:7-9, after the Millenium.]

> Messiah/Judge - Judgment: 2 sections: Bema & White Throne

>***The Bema is the Judgment Seat of Christ. I expect it on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, on the Day of God's Wrath.

[Proof from Scripture? I know of none. The day of Orge Wrath, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, will be so devastating that there can be nothing of earthly history after it.]

>***Rev. 11:17-18 says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and has reigned (it is Coronation Day). And the nations were angry (the united nations's army led by Gog is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

>***The Judgment of the Nations is 7 1/2 months later.

[Bible Proof?]

The Great White Throne Judgment is at the end of the Millennium.

[Almost. You have to have Satan's Little Season also. That is the Great Tribulation.

My reply

Each of us should "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH" (II Tim. 2:15). There are several different judgments, and they take place at different times and in different places.

The angels have already been judged. Heb. 2:2 says, "the word spoken by angels...every transgression and disobedience RECEIVED a just recompence of reward."

The JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST takes place IN HEAVEN after the sixth seal is broken. Rev. 11:17-18 says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and has reigned (it is the Feast of Trumpets [Joel 2:1-3; Mal. 2:3], the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, Coronation Day, day of the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ). And the nations were angry (the united nations's army led by Gog is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME ('the day of the LORD...as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come,' Joel 1:15), AND the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth" (with the seven trumpet judgments).

The JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS takes place on EARTH 7 1/2 months later, After Christ's Second Advent, and after the full 2520 days of the Tribulation expire. At that time, individuals out of all nations are judged on Earth and the sheep will populate the Earth during the millennial Day of the Lord.

Eze. 39:12,13: "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land...and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD."

The seventh month after Tishri 1, 5768 is Nisan 1, because 5768 is a Jewish Leap Year. I believe Jesus will return as the Latter Rain (Hos. 6:3) on Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21), the first day of the Regnal Year and Sacred Year, at the same time all the other Israelite kings officially took office. Christ arranged it on the first day of the Regnal Year because he is King of kings and on the first day of the Sacred Year because he is Lord of lords."

Dan. 8:13,14: "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (first 1260 days of the Tribulation, Rev. 11:3), and the transgression of desolation (Mid Trib, Dan. 9:27), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be TRODDEN UNDER FOOT (Rev. 12:6)?...Unto two thousand and three hundred days (2300 - 1260 = 1040, i.e., Tishri 1, 5768); then SHALL THE SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED" (seven months later, on Nisan 1). Eze. 45:18: "In the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1), thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY." The 2300 days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, run from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

Ezek. 45:21: "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten." Passover is Nisan 14 and the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread Nisan 15. That day is the 2520th day of the Tribulation. The seven years are complete. Satan's time of dominion has ended. I think the Judgment of the Nations will take place the next day. In Rev. 12:14, Israel in the wilderness is nourished 3.5 years (the 2nd 1260 days) "from the face of the serpent (Satan)." After dominion is taken from Satan, he will fight. Armageddon will begin.

The JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS seems to be when "thou, profane wicked prince of Israel (False Prophet) whose day is come, WHEN INIQUITY SHALL HAVE AN END, Thus saith the Lord GOD; REMOVE THE DIADEM (mitsuepheth, miter, headdress of the high priest), AND TAKE OFF THE CROWN (as head over World Government): this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low (Jesus Christ), and abase him that is high" (Satan, as god of this world) (Eze. 21:25,26). If the Judgment of the Nations takes place on Nisan 16, 5768, Christ will take dominion on Earth on the anniversary of his resurrection, the day he proved whose right it is. I expect him to be exalted (made THE FIRST over all the world) on FIRSTFRUITS, Nisan 16, 5768.

Dan. 9:24: "Seventy weeks (sevens, 490 years) are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION (especially Satan's, I think on Nisan 16, 5768), and TO MAKE AND END OF SINS, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy (Christ)."

The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT is at the end of the Millennium. The "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" (Rev. 20:5). It seems to be held in space. Rev. 20:11,12 says, "I saw a GREAT WHITE THRONE, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away...and the dead were JUDGED out of those things which were written in the books."

> "Some from every tribe and nation will be there" with the sheep going to Heaven.

By the time of the JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS, both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures have already taken place. They make up the heavenly group. The sheep live on into the Millennium on EARTH.

> Matthew 16:27 The Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then shall He render to every man according to his deeds. >

I think Christ will return on Nisan 1 and then at the JUDGEMENT OF THE NATIONS on Nisan 16 render to every man left on Earth what he deserves. The sheep will live on into the Millennium. He will say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Mt. 25:34). The goats will be told, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire" (Mt. 25:41).

> the hour is coming,in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice 29 And shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. >

There are 1000 years between "the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation."

> Matthew 12:41-42 The men of Ninevah shall rise with this generation >

The OT saints are part of the Pre-Trib Rapture. So are the saints that lived in 30 AD.

II Thessalonians 1:6-10: "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (The Tribulation) to them that trouble you (brethren, believers who have charity, God's agape love, v. 3); And to you who are troubled (in the Tribulation) rest with us (in Heaven after the Pre-Wrath Rapture), when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14,16) with His mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God" (on the Day of God's Wrath, Tishri 1, 5768).

> Pick out first the tares, and bind them into bundles to be burned;
> but gather the wheat into my barns.

> the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea, and it gathered fish of every kind. When it was filled, they drew it to shore, and sat down and sorted them; the good ones they put into bags, and the bad they threw away. So will it be at the end of the world; the angels will go out and separate the bad from among the righteous. And will throw them into the furnace of fire; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. >

These righteous sheep shall live on into the kingdom. The goats will be thrown "into the furnace of fire."

> Matthew 25:19-30 After a long time, the lord of those servants cometh and reckoneth with them. [faithful rewarded; unprofitable: outer darkness] >

At the Pre-Trib Rapture, the faithful are taken through Heaven's door at night. The unprofitable are cast into the darkness outside the door.

> In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible >

The Pre-Trib Rapture of I Thess. 4:13-18 is the FIRST TRUMP (Nu. 10:2-4). The Pre-Wrath Rapture of I Cor. 15:51,52 is the "LAST TRUMP." See Nu. 10:2-4.

> "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come >

This is the judgment meted out on unbelievers on the Earth at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST in Heaven....

> "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." 2 Corinthians 5:10 >

II Cor. 5:7: "For we walk by faith." The above is talking of Christians that will be given rewards at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST in Heaven....

> I agree that The Judgment comes directly after the Great Tribulation. That is the same time period as Satan's Little Season, Revelation 20:7-9, after the Millenium. >

The JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS comes after the 2520 days of the Tribulation. The Millennium follows the Tribulation. Satan's little season follows the Millennium.

> > ***The Bema is the Judgment Seat of Christ. I expect it on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, on the Day of God's Wrath. >

> [Proof from Scripture? I know of none. The day of Orge Wrath, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, will be so devastating that there can be nothing of earthly history after it.] >

I gave you "Proof from Scripture." Here it is again. Rev. 11:17-18 says, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and has reigned (it is Coronation Day). And the nations were angry (the united nations's army led by Gog is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." >

The Earth will be refreshed by the Lord to make it a fit habitat for man during the Millennium. "And I saw a new (kainos, new in freshness) heaven and a new (kainos, new in freshness) earth" (Rev. 21:1).

The millennial Day of the Lord will be the 1000 years of Christ's reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. We "shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev. 20:6).

> ***The Judgment of the Nations is 7 1/2 months later. >

> [Bible Proof?] >

The 7 months is in Eze. 39:12. The half month is in Eze. 45:18,21, as explained above.

> The Great White Throne Judgment is at the end of the Millennium. >

> [Almost. You have to have Satan's Little Season also. That is the Great Tribulation. >

The Tribulation is 7 years, the Seventieth Week of Daniel. The last half of it is the Great Tribulation. It takes place between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the JUDGMENT OF THE NATIONS. The Millennium follows. At it's end, Satan is loosed for a little season to test those that have lived during the Millennium.

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Updated 11-12-99