Pro and Con 427

Uploaded 11-21-99

Note: The TV news just now showed a fireball seen over Ohio during the meteor shower. Quite a sight.

Incoming Email

Re: more signs in heavens
Waves of fireballs brightened the skies over the Middle East as the much-heralded Leonid meteor shower swelled into the heaviest show of shooting stars in 33 years.

The BBC's Chris Riley, who watched from a Nasa jet: "The sky was on fire" Around the world, astronomers and amateur stargazers gathered to watch the celestial light show, which is unlikely to be matched for decades. The annual shower was most intense at around 0200GMT, raining down a storm of shooting stars at a rate of about 1,700 per hour. It died down to about 450 per hour within 90 minutes.

Spain was treated to showers of shooting stars (ESA) Unlike last year, astronomers got their predicted arrival time spot on. At the height of the storm, observers in Spain counted more than 30 a minute.

In Jordan, 25 miles from the border with Saudi Arabia, about 50 astronomers from around the world watched as fireballs flashed over the desert. Jordanian astronomer Ali Abanda, said: "It is magnificent. It is something that we didn't even detect when we watched the skies 33 years ago." In Israel, observers in the Jordan valley marvelled at the canopy of shooting stars. Ariel Cohen, professor of atmospheric sciences at Hebrew University, said: "I see this as nature's contribution to the celebration of the new millennium."

My reply

Thanks. All this and just about 7 months to Pentecost.

Incoming Email

I appreciate your respone to my coursity, but it now brings me to ask what denomination are you? Or do you believe in churches. I'm a member of a Presbyterian church, yet I do not believe I am Presbyterian, i just believe in god.

I'm not sure where it says it in the bible, but doesn't it say that God lies outside of time and space, does he not? I'll have to read your book when it gets here, but the situation of thinking that there are actual people with certain roles is very confusing. And how could Lucifer turn against god.

I would like you to tell me what you think of this statement: God was creating the world, when he was at the point of the creation of the Dinosuars, the very thing that ended there existence was the bulk of Rahab hitting the earth.

My reply

I was raised a Methodist, but my whole family changed to the First Baptist in my freshman year of High School. After a year, my little brother was to be baptised. My parents decided to go back to the Methodist church so we would all be baptised in the Methodist church. When I met my husband, his church was the First Baptist, the very same one I had already gone to for a year. I decided to change to his church. I liked the way they opened the Bible and taught straight from it. Also, by that time I realized that Jesus was immersed in water when he was baptized, not sprinkled as I had been in the Methodist Church. I wanted to be baptized the way Christ was. I was baptized again by immersion in the First Baptist Church.

We have attended some non-denominational churches too that we liked very much. I look for churches that teach from the open Bible. If they read it out of the Bible, I know it is right. If they just say that the Bible says something, I can't be sure it is right until I look it up. Seeing is believing. Otherwise, I take it with a grain of salt until I can look it up for myself.

The Bible does not mention denominations. All people are members of the Body of Christ, the spiritual Church, if they have accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. The denomination doesn't matter. What they teach must jibe with Scripture though. Keep checking up on what they say. See for yourself if it rings true.

> I'm not sure where it says it in the bible, but doesn't it say that God lies
> outside of time and space, does he not?

Not exactly. It says that God is Spirit (Jn. 4:24), and that "the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee" (I Ki. 8:27). Yet "in him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). He is omnipresent.

> And how could Lucifer turn against god.

He said, "I will be like the most High" (Isa. 14:14). So the Lord said, Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit" (Isa. 14:15). God is the only supreme sovereign of the Universe. No one can usurp his position or the position of Christ. He said, "And let all the angels of God worship him" (Christ) (Heb. 1:6).

Eze. 28:15,16 says, "Thou (Satan) wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain (planet) of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering (guarding) cherub (Gen. 3:24), from the midst of the stones of fire" (planets).

> the very thing that ended there existence was the bulk of Rahab hitting the earth.

There is a very good chance that it was a good sized chunk of Rahab that wiped out the dinosaurs. It could not be too large a piece or the Earth would have split in pieces. It only takes an asteroid about 0.7 of a mile in diameter to wipe out civilization on the Earth. Agape

Incoming Email

A "prophet" whose "prophecy"--even one--does not come true is a FALSE PROPHET, and in times of old, were stoned. Although you say "I am not a prophet," you predict, forewarn, foretell, portend, auger--you prophesize, thereby making yourself a prophet.
Your words (in bold):

May 31, 1998, is when I think the Rapture will take place.
* * *
The Rapture of the Church will no doubt be in 1998, as the Spirit seems to be making clear to all that love His appearing.

As it did not happen, this proves you are a false prophet. Since others have chastised you for this before, I am it will not be news to you. Later, because your prophesy did not come true, you simply changed your viewpoint, saying you were wrong, even though you had "no doubt" about your predictions previously. Further, your interpretation of the scripture you quote below is faulty, and introduces a contradiction, by your own words

"Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house (church) cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mk. 13:35-37). Notice that here he did not say that you know not the year, month, day of the month, or the the day of the week. It boils down to this: Watchers may only know not the hour. This may be because of the different major time zones on the Earth. [sic]

Contradicted by the following quote of your own words:

Remember that God's view is aways from Jerusalem. [sic]

Do you think the concept of time zones is biblically pertinent--that it is the only reason we may not know the hour? We were not meant to know even the day. By reviewing the scripture prior to the part you quote above, one can see this clearly "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mk 13:32 RSV) Pretty powerful argument against date-setting. If you cannot know the day, you cannot know the date.

If you choose to publish this e-mail on your site, I would appreciate it if you could preserve the spelling as is, so you don't make me look like an idiot, as authors of other e-mails disagreeing with you seem to appear. Also, as I do not hate you, or the message of salvation, it would be inappropriate to categorize this as hate-mail. Like you, I study the bible and I enjoy websites devoted to it and to prophesy, etc. But as you yourself have stated, date-setting is neither always agreed upon as a suitable topic for study by Christians, nor are the dates set agreed upon by the many who do engage in this endeavor. I believe that speculation about which signs may be true signs of revelation is watching for the master's return, as we were bade to do. I do not believe setting dates is, and although you have answered to this before, I must ask you what you believe is to be gained by setting dates? It distracts from the message of salvation when the prophesied dates do not yield the promised result, and it discredits Christianity in the eyes of non-believers, whom the message is chiefly for. For believers, no date is necessary. This does not mean we shouldn't be concerned with prophecy, as indeed the fulfillment of prophecy is a joyous thing! And, like you, I also believe Yaohushua's return is near, another joyful event!
In love

My reply

> May 31, 1998, is when I think the Rapture will take place....
>
> The Rapture of the Church will no doubt be in 1998, as the Spirit
> seems to be making clear to all that love His appearing.

If you want to throw stones, I would suggest that you get your facts straight. In the first instance, I said, "I think." I did not utter a prophecy. In the second instance, I quoted David Hill's letter to Jim on the Five Doves Web site. You found the following on P & C 70:

> > "Israel & the Church, by David Hill

David Hill (23 Feb)
"Israel and The Church"

"Jim,
"I read your letter on the Rapture and Irag etc. I know this is beating a 'dead horse' so to speack, but the Rabbi's are not seeing the Rapture of the Church, they are seeing the Awakening of Israel, in accordance with Ez chapters 36-37. This is a 100 year process that started with Theodore Herzl in aug of 1897. His first trip, (as the man that fulfilled the first half of that process) to Israel was in the summer of 1898, again 100 years. Abraham was 100 years old when Issac was born, and the 'birth' of the 144,000 is a result of the Marriage (Rapture of O.T. and N.T. Saints-Heb 11:40), this is why the start of the Trib, is called the Begining of Birth Pains. The world is feeling the birth pains of the 144,000. We have to differentiate between Israel and the Church (Adam and Eve). The Rapture of the Church will no doubt be in 1998, as the Spirit seems to be making clear to all that love His appearing.

> This may be because of the different major time zones on the Earth. [sic]
>
> Contradicted by the following quote of your own words:
>
> Remember that God's view is aways from Jerusalem. [sic]

In the first instance, I said "may be." That is not a prophecy. In the second instance, your quote came from the incoming email on P & C 69. It is not my words. The writer was quoting Greg Killian:
> >

Incoming Email

Subject: A Great and Wonderous Sign (Rev 12)
Wanted to share this with you...ASTRONOMICALLY SIGNIFICANT EVENT details from a Messianic Jew.
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.... Remember: God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for SIGNS, and for seasons and for days and years." Genesis 1:14

The SIGN depicted above, is how it looks from Jerusalem! Remember that God's view is aways from Jerusalem.

Consider this an interesting speculation. Not as gospel truth, could this be how God will display this sign?? It does seem to suggest that it might be the sign spoken of in Revelation 12.

This info found at http:// member.aol.com/gkilli/home/celestal.html

Here's One More SIGN, Keep Looking Up Jesus Is Coming!

> Do you think the concept of time zones is biblically pertinent

No, I really think that every one of the wise virgins will be caught up at one instant. Jesus said, "Surely, I come quickly" (Rev. 22:20). However, in discussing Pro and Cons, other things can be taken into consideration. After assembling the possibilities, we can better make an educated guess.

> --that it is the only reason we may not know the hour? We were not meant to
> know even the day. By reviewing the scripture prior to the part you
> quote above, one can see this clearly "But of that day or hour no one
> knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the
> Father." (Mk 13:32 RSV) Pretty powerful argument against date-setting.
> If you cannot know the day, you cannot know the date.

"By reviewing the scripture prior to the part you quote," Mt. 24:35 (RSV) says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

> I must ask you what you believe is to be gained by setting dates?

I am not saying that things have to happen when I think they will. I am just following the "publish, and conceal not" that was in the verse (Jer. 50:2) that I saw a rectangle of light on.

> it discredits Christianity in the eyes of non-believers, whom the message is
> chiefly for. For believers, no date is necessary.

What is necessary for unbelievers is out there for the non-believers. What is necessary for believers is to realize how soon the Rapture might be possible and to get ready in time. We must use I John 1:9, confess our sins, so He can cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Agape

Incoming Email

Re: False Prophesy
It was not my intention to throw stones, so let us not descend into casting such aspersions on each other, as I believe you are interested in the truth. If I misquoted you, it is my mistake, as I thought I had only pulled from your replies. In any event, I disagree with you that your saying "I think . . ." excludes you from the ranks of prophets, though I can see that you are steadfast in your belief in this. The very definition of a prophet is a foreteller, and the fact that you don't say it comes from the Lord means only that it doesn't come from the Lord. Not that it isn't prophesizing. By including messages from others who do the same, you are giving your tacit approval.

>"By reviewing the scripture prior to the part you quote," Mt. 24:35
>(RSV) says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

How does this affect the interpretation that we may not know the day or hour?

>I am not saying that things have to happen when I think they will. I am
>just following the "publish, and conceal not" that was in the verse
>(Jer. 50:2) that I saw a rectangle of light on.

I can respect your calling, but are you sure that means you must "publish and conceal not" dates?

"...guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith." (1Ti 6:20 RSV)

My husband is busy as I write this, studying scripture referring to prophecy, but I have explained to him that you do not feel you are prophesying, and therefore will not accept conviction from anyone on this. I am sure you take a lot of criticism from many people, and may feel beleaguered by what seem outpourings of hate and discontent. Please do not look upon my words as such, for again, I am not angry or hateful, and cannot even fully explain why I am compelled to respond to what I believe are errors of the faith. In love

My reply

Of course, I am interested in the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That doesn't mean that I look so hard at one thing that I fail to see other things. I am not like a stagnant pond; I am more like a running brook. I prayed to understand all that God wants man to know about the Bible--everything. He would not find me teachable if I didn't keep an open mind. I look at everything, search the scriptures to see if it is so, cast out that which does not agree with scripture and keep the good. I learn new things all the time.

I don't think there is a single prophet of God on the Earth today. That awaits the arrival of Moses and Elijah as the Tribulation begins.

> By including messages from others who do the same, you are giving
> your tacit approval.

Just because I print your email in the Pro and Cons does not mean that I agree with you any more than printing anyone else's email means that I am giving my tacit approval.

> > Mt. 24:35 (RSV) says, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not
> >pass away."
>
> How does this affect the interpretation that we may not know the day or hour?

It goes with it. Mt. 24:35,36 (KJV) says, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. BUT (a conjunction, that can mean 'But concerning,' as in Green's Interlinear) of THAT DAY AND HOUR (when Heaven and Earth shall pass away) knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven but my Father only."

> I can respect your calling, but are you sure that means you must
> "publish and conceal not" dates?

It has to do with ALL that I have learned about the Word of God.

> "...guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter
> and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by
> professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith." (1Ti 6:20 RSV)

I am guarding what has been entrusted to me. I Tim. 6:20 (KJV) is more to the point. It says, "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called."

> I...cannot even fully explain why I am compelled
> to respond to what I believe are errors of the faith.

We all need to be careful to say, "This is what I believe," or "This is what I think," for Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" (Mt. 7:1-3). James 4:11,12 says, "Speak not evil one of another, brethren (believers). He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another."

This doesn't mean we are to park our brains. We are to be ready at all times to explain the hope that is in us. I Peter 3:15-17 says, "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing." We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God. II Tim. 2:15 says, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." We are to search the scriptures to see if things are so. Acts 17:11 says that the Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians, "in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." We are to decide if we will hold on to different concepts or throw them away. But, in the end, we are each responsible to Christ for our own beliefs, not someone else's.

If you would like to examine certain scriptures that differ with your opinion of Mt. 24:36, let me know. I can just list them so you can make up your own mind. The only one I will give you to think about now is Rev. 3:3. Jesus warned the churches, "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What can happen if we do watch? Agape

Incoming Email

GOD BLESS YOU MY BROTHER, CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN EXACTLY WE EXPECT THE REPTURE?

My reply

As for me, I am hoping for Pentecost, 2000. Sivan 6 and 7 are June 9 and 10. I favor June 10. It seems like the Jewish 5758 (our 1997/1998) was the 6000th year since Adam left the Garden. That year might have started the four-year countdown in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. I call those four years Israel's grace years. Jesus only looks for fruit in the first two years, but he speaks in the third year. He neither comes to look nor speaks in the fourth year. That year, will probably be when the Tribulation begins. Keep watching for signs.

Get ready and stay ready. We do not have long to wait no matter how you figure it. I expect to go before the Final Status Peace Agreement is signed Sept. 13, 2000. Agape

Incoming Email

The possibility of forgiveness for Lucifer by God seems to be an issue ignored or poo-pooed by many. I love Christ and cannot wait to be reuinited with everyone in Heaven. But my heart goes out to this Ultimate Prodigal. Perhaps the story we are presently a part of is that of Christ wooing Lucifer back into the Family of God.

My reply

I don't think so. Job. 41:9 says, "Behold, the hope of him is in vain."

I can't be positive, but it looks to me like Satan and his angels have already failed their test. One third of the angels fell with him (Rev. 12:4). They were judged and sentenced to prison.

Some are already in prison. They will be released on the Day of God's Wrath for a few months (Rev. 9:3). Jude 6 says, "the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Satan must have appealed the sentence, saying that it was unfair. God may have created man, smaller, less powerful and not able to see God to prove that He is perfectly just in putting Satan and the fallen angels in prison. If man, not able to see God, can still obey him, God is just in putting the fallen angels in prison.

God absolutely cannot allow evil to exist forever. That would be unfair to all that passed their test, angels or man. After living in this evil world, I have learned my lesson that I sure don't want to live with evil for all of eternity.

Satan's sentence will be carried out in steps. Eze. 28:12f speaks to Satan as King of Tyrus (rock), meaning the planet he lived on that is now the Asteroid Belt. Verse 16f says, Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God (Rev. 12:7-9): and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire (his planet was in the middle of the planetary lineup). Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries (on his planet Rahab, then on a piece of it, and finally on Earth at Babylon) by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more."

The asteroid that Satan now lives on ("the key of the bottomless pit," Rev. 9:1) will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). It is probably a binary that will split apart at the Roche Limit, about 11,000 mi. out. One piece as big as a mountain will impact the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). The other larger "star" (Gr.,"aster") will destroy Babylon (Rev. 18:21).

This digging the pit for the wicked (Psa. 94:13) will release those angels that have already been in prison. The fallen angels, Satan, and all the lost among mankind will be cast into the Lake of Fire before all this is over. I think the Lake of Fire is formed volcanically when the pit is digged for the wicked. Agape

Incoming Email

What do you think of the preterist's view that Revelation was written before 96 AD and all of Revelation has been fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem in 70 AD. Sincerely

I have noticed that almost every Tom Dick and Harry have joined the ranks and files of the Preterist eschatology on the Web Pages.

My reply

I STRONGLY DISAGREE with the Preterists. John "was put in prison on the Patmos Isle in the Aegean in the fifteenth year of Domitian, according to Eusebius (Ecclesiastical History III, 18)....The best date seems to be 95 or 96 A.D. (cf. Swete, Milligan, Moffatt and Zahn). This date accords with evidence from Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius to the effect that the banishment to Patmos was in the later reign of Domitian, 81-96 A.D." (Unger's Bible Dictionary).

If Revelation was written after 70 A.D., the Preterist view falls by the wayside. The whole scheme is illogical. Personally, I can't understand how anyone could fall for it, especially anyone smart enough to accept Christ. It only takes one reading of Revelation to show me that the "hereafter" things have not yet taken place. Has an asteroid like "a great mountain burning with fire" been cast into the Mediterranean Sea (Rev. 8:8, Zeph. 2:4,5, Eze. 38:20)? Has a "great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" destroyed Babylon in one hour (Rev. 8:10; 18:21)? Has the Lake of Fire been formed? No. These things didn't happen in 70 AD, and they have not happened yet.

Even harder to understand is how anyone could think that we have already returned with Christ. We haven't been caught up yet.

If "all of Revelation has been fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem in 70 AD," we were all born with no hope, no chance to go to Heaven. It would have been all over before we were born.

Here is the way I see it. We have the chance to be accounted worthy to escape before the Tribulation (Lu. 21:36). We also have the chance to not be accounted worthy to escape all these things, and to go through the Tribulation. We also have the chance to rule with Christ during the Millennium. Time covers roughly 7000 years, and only 6000 have gone down the drain. Agape

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Updated 11-21-99