Pro and Con 429

Uploaded 11-28-99

Note: My heartfelt thanks goes out to the very nice person who sent me Seiss' Gospel in the Stars. I am so pleased. I have been able to put two and two together as never before. It is exciting! I love to learn new things. Lord willing, I will UL a file on this subject soon.

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> But, in the end, we are each responsible to Christ for our own beliefs, not someone else's.

Amen to that! And I see now how you mean 'heaven and earth will pass away..." in reference to the whole of the passage. It still does not say to me to watch for specific dates, because as other passages, which deal with watching for the signs of the masters return, also do not say this.

  Also, I don't necessarily find the KJV I Tim. 6:20  more to the point, since each seems clear enough to me, but everyone has their preferred bible source! That brings me to another topic, (which will hopefully get us off the wagon of prophecy altogether!), and that is the NAME of my various books and on numerous websites, I have seen discourses on the true NAME of the Lord, and I wondered what you may have made of all this, however academic you may find it. Just as a synopsis, these are the names I have encountered, and if you would be so inclined, I would like to hear your views on these:

  Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.................from the Tanakh, Gen 3:14
Yahweh.................from and many others
YHWH...............from sites & books too numerous to list, but most recently from a book by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. And I have seen a lot of disagreement about what is said when this appears in the bible, from HaShem (which I have seen elsewhere and just means "The Name") to Jehovah / Yehova, or just simply LORD.
Yaohu (with Yaohushua for Jesus).......from
yod-kay-vav-kay ............from Greg Killian's site

My reply

> It still does not say to me to watch for specific dates, because as other passages,
> which deal with watching for the signs of the masters return, also do not say this.

What did you make of Rev. 3:3? Jesus said to the churches, "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Do you think it could mean that if we DO watch, he will NOT come on us as a thief, and we shall KNOW WHAT HOUR HE WILL COME UPON US?

What does Mk. 13:23 mean? Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS."

What does I John 2:18,20 mean? It says, "Little children (the last generation), it is the last time (year? as in Rev. 12:6,14)...But ye have an unction (annointing) from the Holy One, and YE KNOW ALL THINGS."

Just before the Ascension, Jesus told the apostles, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But YE SHALL RECEIVE POWER, AFTER THAT THE HOLY GHOST IS COME UPON YOU" (Acts 1:7,8).

What do you think I Pet. 1:10-12 means? Does the "POWER" of Acts 1:8 come by the "GRACE THAT SHOULD COME UNTO YOU" in I Pet. 1:10-12? It says, "Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the GRACE THAT SHOULD COME UNTO YOU: SEARCHING WHAT, OR WHAT MANNER OF TIME the Spirit of Christ which was in them did SIGNIFY, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ (First Advent), and the glory (Second Advent) that should follow. Unto whom it was REVEALED, that not unto themselves, BUT UNTO US they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven."

As for the name of God, it seems to me that the basic name translated "LORD" in the KJV is yod-hay-vav-hay, YHVH, pronounced Yahweh.

There are some neat verses in the Psalms that suggest Y'shua (Jesus). Keep in mind that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Cor. 5:19). Psa. 80:1,2 says, "Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save (yeshuah) us." Psa. 28:8,9 says, "The LORD (YHVH) is their strength, and he is the saving (yeshuah) strength of his anointed. Save (yasha) thy people, and bless thine inheritance: feed them also, and lift them up for ever." Psa. 67:1,2 says, "God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah (i.e., stop and think of that). That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving (yeshuah) health among all nations." Psa. 20:6 says, "Now know I that the LORD (YHVH) saveth (yasha) his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving (yesha) strength of his right hand." Christ is referred to as YHVH's arm and his right hand (Isa. 52:10;53:1; 48:13).

I love Isa. 44:6. It says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH King of Israel), AND I am the last (YHVH of hosts, Christ); and beside me there is no God."

In Rev. 22:13, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Lord of the Old Testament) and the end (Lord of the New Testament), the first AND the last."

Isa. 48:2-18 is so neat. It raises up the hair on my arms and makes my heart sing. It says, "For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themelves upon the God of Israel; The LORD (YHVH) of hosts (i.e., the Redeemer, the pre-incarnate Christ) is his name. I (YHVH of hosts, Christ) have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass....I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them....Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I AM THE FIRST, I ALSO AM THE LAST. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my RIGHT HAND hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together...Come ye near unto me (YHVH of hosts, Christ), hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I (Christ): and now the Lord GOD (the Father), AND his Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, Rom. 8:9), hath sent me (Christ). Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy Redeemer (Christ), the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea."

De. 6:4 says, "Hear O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)."

No wonder John 1:1-3,14 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

I got tickled when I went to Monte Judah's site. He doesn't think there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. The emphasis is mine. Here is what he said, "For those who are still not convinced that the last trump of 1 Cor 15 is the seventh trumpet of Revelation, answer this question. If the last trump of 1 Cor 15 does sound prior to the tribulation, then WHAT IS THE TRUMP THAT PRECEDED THAT LAST TRUMP? There is no answer for this. There is no Scripture that describes another trumpet before the pretrib rapture trumpet."

He is so close and still can't see it. If the trump in I Cor. 15:52 is the "last trump," there must be a first trump. He can't see that the first trump is in I Thess. 4:16, because he thinks both I Thess. 4:13-18 and I Cor. 15:51,52 apply to the same Rapture. They don't. I think that there are two trumpet calls for the saints, one before the Tribulation and one on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord just before the seven trumpet judgments strike Earth with God's Wrath. They were prefigured for us by the two silver assembly trumpets of Nu. 10:2-4. When one trumpet was blown, "then the princes, which are heads (elders) of the thousands of Israel, shall GATHER THEMSELVES UNTO THEE." When the last trump is blown, "ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee."

Monte also said, "We know that the wrath of God is not stored up for us, His believers (1 Thes 5:9). We know God's wrath will come upon unbelievers. The purpose for God rapturing us from the surface of the earth is to avoid the wrath of God on the day of the Lord....

"But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. MAT 24:29-31

"You don't need an advanced seminary degree to understand that God intends to gather (resurrect and rapture) His elect (the believers) at the same time He returns with the last trumpet sounding and this all occurs immediately after the tribulation and before the day of the Lord."

He knows that we are NOT to suffer the wrath of God, and yet, he can't see that we CAN'T be here during the seven trumpet judgments, for they ARE the Wrath of God. Rev. 6:16,17 says that all the men hide and say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB? FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME." That is after the sixth seal is broken in 6:12. In Rev. 7:14, we see the Tribulation saints in heaven BEFORE the first trumpet judgment is sounded in Rev. 8.

In Mt. 24:31, the KJV says, "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER together his elect from the four winds, from one end of HEAVEN to the other." I think these were called to the heavenly assembly by the first trump--before the Tribulation. That is why they now have to be gathered from one end of Heaven to the other.

However, the Tribulation saints are also to be called to this assembly for it is Coronation Day, the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Mk. 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints, the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Church saints that were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).

In Rev. 5:9, we see the Pre-Trib Rapture group in Heaven before the FIRST seal is broken.

Monty also said, "2TH 2:1-4...The key to understanding this verse is with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him. The intent of this passage is to stop anyone from saying that the second coming, the gathering of the saints, and the day of the Lord is before two specific things: the apostasy and the antichrist being revealed. These prerequisites are things that happen in the tribulation period. Therefore, the tribulation must occur first before the second coming, the gathering of the saints, and the day of the Lord....

"On this particular point, some pretrib teachers argue that apostasy doesn't mean falling from faith. They claim that the "falling away" is the "catching up together" and thus describes the rapture. To believe that, you must ignore the expression our gathering together to Him and artificially insert the Rapture in for the word apostasy. But this isn't the only time the Bible speaks of a falling away leading to the tribulation.

"And at that time many will fall away [apostasy] and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. MAT 24:10-11"

He thinks the Second Advent is when the Rapture takes place, but there are 7 months for burying the bodies between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12), and all the saints must be in heaven BEFORE the Day of God's Wrath.

He even knows that it is possible that "he apostasia" means THE DEPARTURE, or "catching up together," but he tries to explain it away. The passage in Mt. 24:10,11 refers to the disciples in the first century. The "end" does not come until v. 14. The Greek for "fall away" in Mt. 24:10 is not "apostasia." The KJV has "many shall be offended ("skandalizo," scandalized, enticed to sin, or to apostatize, to offend)."

The Greek "he apostasia" is similar to the separation, when one person leaves the other in an "apostacion," divorcement. It means leaving, and the Rapture is leaving.

Monty gets so close, yet does not understand that there are two Raptures, and that both must take place before the Wrath of God, and before the 7 trumpet judgments, and before the Second Advent. The "last trump" of I Cor. 15:52 that calls the Tribulation saints to Heaven really is "the trump of God," just as the first trump is in I Thess 4:16. The seven trumpet judgments are sounded by angels. There is a difference.

I am convinced that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. Lu. 21:36 tells us to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Be ready, the Lord cometh. Agape

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I am very interested in the information on your website and have chosen to do a report for school on the Seventh Circle in Bible Prophecy. I was wondering if you could send me some more in formation on the subject. I would really appreciate. Thanks!

My reply

Get the book, The Seventh Circle in Bible Prophecy, by Wayne L. Atchison. I read it and wrote clocks.html. That is all I know about the subject. I had never heard of circle clocks until I read that book. My take on it is a bit different than his, but I could recognize order in certain patterns that made sense.

When you read clocks.html, remember the date it was posted. The Rapture did not happen in what looks like the 6000th year. Each Hebrew (and Greek) letter has a numerical coefficient. In Hebrew, the Jewish 5758 (our 1997/1998) means "The Season of Noah." The 58 spells Noah.

The Rapture is "as the days of Noe" (this spelling is from the Greek) (Mt. 24:37).

There is a chance that we entered a four-year "space to repent" (Rev. 2:21) in 5758. There are four years given in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. I call these Israel's grace years. These years may bridge the gap between 5758 and 5761, when I think the seven-year Tribulation will begin. In the parable, Jesus only comes looking in the first two years. In the third year, he speaks. He neither comes nor speaks in the last year. I am hoping the Rapture will be next Pentecost, Sivan 6 or 7, 5760 (our June 9 or 10).

Lu. 13:6-9 says, "He (Jesus) spake also this parable; A certain man (i.e., Jesus) had a fig tree (Israel, Joel 1:6,7; Hos. 9:10; Eze. 36:8; Jer. 24:5,6) planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then SAID he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these THREE YEARS (1998, 1999, 2000?) I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also (2001), till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then AFTER THAT (2001, beginning of the Tribulation?) thou shalt cut it down."

Isa. 5:1-8 helps us understand. It says, "NOW will I (the LORD) sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved (Christ) touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vinyard in a very fruitful hill: And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower (the temple?) in the midst of it, and also made a wine-press therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard (Israel). What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I LOOKED that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now GO TO (the Pre-Trib Rapture?); I will tell you what I will do (after the Rapture?) to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it (Israel has drought right now). For THE VINEYARD OF THE LORD OF HOSTS (Christ, Isa. 44:6) IS THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL, AND THE MEN OF JUDAH HIS PLEASANT PLANT: and HE LOOKED (as in the parable of the barren fig tree) for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry. WOE unto them."

The woe comes during the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan. 9:27), the seven-year Tribulation. The rest of Isa. 5 tells of woes that are coming upon Israel "because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts (YHVH of hosts, Christ, Isa. 44:6), and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel" (v. 24).

Verse 30 describes the Day of God's Wrath on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the Tribulation. "And in that day they shall roar against them (Israel will be attacked by the united nations' army led by Gog, Eze. 38) like the ROARING OF THE SEA: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof."

It is the Feast of Trumpets, the day of "thick darkness...a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it" (Joel 2:1,2). Joel 1:15 says, "Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD (the Millennium) is at hand, as as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."

Joel 2:10 says, "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining."

What happens that day is told us in Rev. 8:8: "a great mountain burning with fire (an asteroid) was cast into the sea (the Mediterranean Sea, Zeph. 2:4,5).

Eze. 38:19,20 elaborates: "Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea (the Mediterranean), and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake (worldwide earthquake, Rev. 16:19) at my presence (paneh, face, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:15,16), and the mountains (two asteroids, the other is the 'great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp," Rev. 8:10) shall be thrown down (impact Earth), and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL shall fall to the ground."

Joel 2:11-23 fills in details of the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It says, "the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also NOW, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God (Israel will be saved this day, Isa. 66:8)...Blow the trumpet (it is the Feast of Trumpets) in Zion (the heavenly one), sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: GATHER the people (from one end of heaven to the other, Mk. 13:27), sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders (Rev. 4:4), GATHER (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) the children, and those that such the breasts: let the bridegroom (Christ) go forth of his chamber, and the bride (Bride of Christ) out of her closet (chuppah, the marriage canopy). Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people (Israel), O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them...Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people...I will remove far off from you the northern army (Eze. 38), and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea (Dead Sea), and his hinder part toward the utmost sea (the Mediterranean), and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things....for the tree (Israel) beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion (the earthly one), and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain (Christ came as the former rain on Tishri 1 the first time) moderately, and he will (in 7 months, Eze. 39:12) cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain (equals the First Advent), and the latter rain (Second Advent) in the first month."

In Israel, the former rain starts Tishri 1. The latter rain starts Nisan 1. Tishri 1 is the first month (new moon) of the Jewish Civil Year. Nisan 1 is the first month (new moon) of the Regnal and Sacred Year.

After Christ's return on the first day of the Regnal and Sacred Year (Eze. 29:17,21), he will judge the nations for they have "scattered (Israel) among the nations, and parted my land" (Joel 3:2). This parting the land is part of the Final Status Agreement that is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. The Palestinian State will bring judgment. It may be the digging and dunging of the parable of the barren fig tree.

Keep obeying Jesus' command to "Watch." Get ready (accept Christ as your Saviour and confess any sins since you accepted Him, I Jn. 1:9) and stay ready for we are not far from the Pre-Trib Rapture, when Jesus will come take the wise virgins (Bride of Christ) of Mt. 25 to heaven.

Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Agape

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Thought you might enjoy this article:

By Jupiter! Confusion over planet, Wednesday, November 17, 1999
Jupiter may once have been much further from the Sun, By Dr David Whitehouse

A new analysis of the data collected by the Galileo spacecraft's atmospheric entry probe has thrown into confusion the accepted ideas about how our Solar System was formed....

According to scientists writing in the journal Nature, gas giant Jupiter has two to three times more of the heavy gases argon, krypton and xenon than would be expected had it formed solely from gas left over after our Sun's birth.

It has also about three times more nitrogen than would be expected under the prevailing models of how our Solar System was created.

Jupiter current orbit, about five times the distance from the Earth to the Sun (five Astronomical Units), is much too warm to have accumulated those gases in the quantities detected by the probe.

Current wisdom has it that Jupiter formed from the solar nebula, the gas and dust left over after the formation of the Sun. It grew due to the accumulation of small bodies called icy planetesimals, or micro-planets.

Most planetesimals, a class of objects which includes comets, are thought to have formed somewhere between the orbits of Uranus and Neptune, 20 to 30 Astronomical Units from the Sun.

But even at that distance the initial temperature of these icy worldlets would have been far too warm for them to trap the heavy noble gases and nitrogen in an icy form.

So where did Jupiter get these heavy gasses?

...Astronomers realise that the presence of the heavy gases on Jupiter are telling us something profound about the origin of the planet and indeed of all the planets in our Solar System.

"The implications are enormous," said one of the authors of the report, Sushil Atreya of the University of Michigan College of Engineering.

...The puzzling measurements were made by the Galileo entry probe that detached from the main Galileo spacecraft in the summer of 1995 and made a fiery hour-long plunge into Jupiter's windy atmosphere on 7 December 1995.

...What astronomers would now like to find out is whether the same thing true of Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

Professor Donahue summed up the puzzlement: "There may be more to the Solar System than we know about."

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Thanks. I love it. Yeah! "There may be". :-) That's for sure.

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