Pro and Con 432

Uploaded 12-13-99

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What about the Jews?
I have some questions that I would like to ask you for your opinion....since I respect the time you have spent in God's word, I would like to get your thoughts. I believe that Jesus is the messiah and only begotten Son of God....married to a Jewish girl...Of course, we have big problems regarding what is truth.

I have studied a great deal about the Jewish faith and in particular the Old Testament. For years, I completely neglected this part of the bible and I think many Christians do. As I studied, I became more aware of how God will at the appointed time extend his mercy and grace to the Jewish people. I also began to realize how difficult it would be to convince a Jew that Jesus is messiah and that it would be almost impossible to persuade that he is God too. The reason for this is that if you take only the Old Testament scriptures by themselves, the message of the gospel is almost encoded in the text. You have to be on "our side of the fence" so to speak to be able to see the pictures and references to Jesus.

As you know, the Jews have big problems with the following:
1. Where in the Hebrew bible does it say that God can be both man and God?
2. " " that they are to worship the messiah?
3. " " that God can be anything other than a spirit? (For no man has seen God at anytime.)
4. " " that someone must die for our sins for them to be forgiven?
5. " " that the New Covenant which is to come will be for anyone other than the House of Israel and the House of Judah?

Jews study their bible pretty well. They have their answers organized and ready. I can point out a large number of scriptures that according to the authors of the gospels were fulfilled by Jesus but that isn't really where the battle is. In fact, Jews don't really have an automatic problem with Jesus being the messiah, (of course they don't believe he is) the crux of the problem is that they see us Christians worshipping the messiah and claiming he is God. The Jews claim that they may only worship the God that there fathers knew. "The Lord our God is one" and "there is no other God but me", etc.

From a theological standpoint I see the Jews as currently in the grave awaiting the third day of Hos. 6:2. I see the Jews as being the suffering servant of Isaiah along with Jesus the messiah. I believe that they are both a picture of each other. The Jews will be resurrected on the third day just like Jesus was. They have suffered and figuratively "borne the sins" of the world like Jesus did in the sense that if they had accepted Jesus as messiah, the message of the kingdom would not have gone out to the Gentiles. Paul teaches that in Romans chapter 11.

Yet everywhere you turn, Christians are condemning Jews to hell for their unbelief in Jesus as messiah. My point is, did they have a real choice? Wasn't this all part of God's ultimate plan of redemption for the whole world. If Jews are serving God according to the covenant given to them according to the Hebrew bible and have a personal relationship with him, who is to say that they are condemned? We know that many men prior to the Law had relationships with God. We know that many during the time of the Law did as well.

...I know the scriptures of the New Testament teach that Jesus is the only way. I sometimes have a hard time understanding the justice of the matter since we know that there has been a partial hardening and a veil has been placed over their eyes. This has happened to Jews who did not reject Jesus 2000 years ago and did not witness the miracles and fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. So being raised a Jew actually means that you have a built-in impediment to receiving Jesus as Lord. I know that with God all things are possible, but this truly requires a miracle from God.

...How would you answer a Jew who says that the questions that were asked above can only be addressed by Christians though allegories and metaphors? In your teachings you often say that Jesus is in fact Yahovah of Hosts. But how do I explain "And a Shoot goes out from the stump of Jesse, and a Branch will bear fruit out of his roots. And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest on Him; He will have the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah." How can messiah fear Yahovah and be Yahovah? Again, keep in mind that New Testament teachings have little or no effect. How do you explain only using the Hebrew bible. This is what they were given by God beginning on Mount Sinai. How can Jesus pray to God in the garden if he is God? Where does it state that anyone prior to the cross was justified by the "only way" Jesus?

Isaiah 9:6 is pretty good, but in the context of Ahaz, it doesn't have alot of impact on Jews. Isaiah 7:14 goes nowhere because of the almah issue and the context of the story. Allusions to the Lord's right arm and other pictures of Christ don't mean much to a people who are used to having their commandments spoken to them very clearly and specifically. What do you think of my thoughts? Again, let me restate that the bottom line is not whether Jesus could be messiah. It is could messiah be worshipped and be both man and God? And then support these arguments only with the Old Testament. How would you handle this situation?

As a side point, I just want to encourage you and thank you deeply for the work you are doing. You take a hard rap from the "date setter" group. I am not saying who is right or wrong but I will say that I have a much harder time feeling the love of Jesus from those who strike at you. At the end of the day, I don't see any real harm coming from your website and I see a lot of good. What are they complaining about really. Do they really think that Christians are going to quit living their lives and go wait in a cave for Jesus to come back? I would find it very hard to believe that very many born-again Christians would ever consider such a thing. But the good is that you are telling everyone essentially the same message that Jesus told, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

I personally can't wait for the day when this world is no more. I am ready for a world with a righteous King! May God bless you greatly

My reply

> 1. Where in the Hebrew bible does it say that God can be both man and God?

First, we need to realize that God has a SON. Second, we need to figure out what his SON'S NAME is. Prov. 30:4 says, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? (YHVH) who hath gathered the wind in his fists? (YHVH) who hath bound the waters in a garment? (YHVH) who hath established all the ends of the earth? (YHVH) what is his name (YHVH), and WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?"

This son is the promised SEED of a woman. Gen. 3:14,15 says, "the LORD (YHVH) God (Elohim) said unto the serpent...I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and HER SEED (a virgin birth); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise HIS heel." The virgin born SEED is a male child. Having no human father, this child is fathered by God. If fathered by God, this child is rightfully called the Son of God.

Isa. 9:6,7 shows us that one special person is both man and God. It says, "For unto us a CHILD IS BORN (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a SON IS GIVEN (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and HIS NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD (Elohim), THE EVERLASTING FATHER, the Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS will perform this."

This Son is to be the Redeemer. One is needed for "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6). This Redeemer is "the arm of the LORD (YHVH)...he was WOUNDED for OUR TRANSGRESSIONS, he was BRUISED for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD (YHVH) hath LAID ON HIM (the virgin born Son) the iniquity of us ALL....he is brought AS A LAMB to the slaughter" (Isa. 53:1,5-7). Isa. 54:5 says, "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME; and thy Redeemer the HOLY ONE of Israel; The God (Elohim) of the WHOLE EARTH shall be be called."

This YHVH of hosts was killed. Isa 53:9,10 says, "he made his GRAVE with the wicked, and with the rich in his death (the Dead Sea Scrolls show that this is reversed, he made his grave with the rich and with the wicked in his death); because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth (he was a perfect sacrifice for sins). Yet it pleased the LORD (YHVH) to BRUISE him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make HIS SOUL AN OFFERING FOR SIN." Without the perfect sin offering, we would all be doomed.

God cannot die. To be able to die as a perfect sin offering in our stead, God had to dwell in a human body that could die. "The LORD (YHVH) hath made bare HIS HOLY ARM (the virgin born Son) in the eyes of ALL THE NATIONS; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD (Elohim)" (Isa. 52:10).

YHVH is both the King of Israel, and the Redeemer. Isa. 44:6 says, Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, AND HIS REDEEMER THE LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS; I (YHVH, King of Israel) am the FIRST (YHVH, King of Israel), AND I am the LAST (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God."

De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim, plural) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)."

Isa. 45:21,22 says, "...I the LORD (YHVH)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God (Elohim) AND A SAVIOUR (YHVH of hosts); there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else."

Isa. 45:15 says, "Verily thou art a God (Elohim) that hidest thyself, O God (Elohim) of Israel, THE SAVIOUR."

In Isa. 48:12-17, the REDEEMER speaks: "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the FIRST (the King of Israel), I also am the LAST (YHVH of hosts). Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together...Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now (1) THE LORD GOD; and (2) HIS SPIRIT, HATH SENT (3) ME. Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD (YHVH) thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to MY commandments!"

YHVH of hosts was the one that spoke to Israel at Sinai. He is the one that gave Moses the commandments. He is the Son of God that has dealt with man all along. II Sam. 7:26-28 says, "let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD (YHVH) of hosts is the God (Elohim) over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee. For thou, O LORD (YHVH) of hosts, God (Elohim) of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee. And now, O Lord GOD, thou art that God, and thy words be true, and thou hast promised this goodness unto thy servant."

In the Old Testament, YHVH of hosts was in his pre-incarnate state. In the New Testament, he is in his incarnate state, in the body of the virgin-born child. II Cor. 5:19 explains: "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

Gen. 1:26,27 says, "God (Elohim) said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness...So God (Elohim, plural) created man in his own image, IN THE IMAGE OF GOD created he him; MALE AND FEMALE (2 people) created he them." Eve was taken out of Adam. This in some way pictures God and his Son, which was taken out of Him. They are of the same essence.

Gen. 3:22 says, the LORD (YHVH) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as ONE OF US." "ONE OF US" implies that there are two. There is the Father. There is the Son. The Son was taken out of the Father, or as Isa. 9:6 put it, "unto us a SON IS GIVEN." The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

John 17:21-23 says, "That they all may be one; AS THOU, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, AND THOU IN ME, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world my know that THOU HAST SENT ME, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

I Cor. 2: 7,8 says, "we speak the wisdom of God in mystery, even the HIDDEN WISDOM, which God ordained BEFORE THE WORLD unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified THE LORD OF GLORY."

Isa. 49:26 says, "and all flesh shall know that I the LORD (YHVH) am thy SAVIOUR AND THY REDEEMER, the mighty One of Jacob." YHVH of hosts was the one that dealt with Jacob. He is the one that, as the angel of the Lord, talked with Abraham. He always is the one with whom man has to deal. He is the mediator between God and man.

Job wrote before Moses did. There is not a hint of the Law in Job, but already, he knew that the Redeemer was to come. In Job. 19:25, he said, "I know that MY REDEEMER liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth." We are now approaching the time of which Job spoke so long ago.

David knew. He said, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD (YHVH), my strength, and MY REDEEMER." Asaph knew. Psa. 78:35 says, "And they remembered that God (Elohim) was their rock, and THE HIGH GOD (Elohim) THEIR REDEEMER."

Isa. 43:10-15 says, "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH)...know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE (YHVH of hosts): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD (YHVH); and beside me there is no saviour...Yea, before the day was I AM HE (the Redeemer, the Saviour)...Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), your REDEEMER, THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL...I am the LORD (YHVH), your Holy One, the CREATOR OF ISRAEL, YOUR KING."

Isa. 44:24 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), thy REDEEMER, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (YHVH) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself."

Jer. 50:34 says, "Their REDEEMER is strong; the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME." The name of God's Son is YHVH OF HOSTS. He is our Saviour, our salvation, our "shua." He is YHVHshua, Y'shua, Yeshua.

> 2. " that they are to worship the messiah?

Isa. 49:7 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), the REDEEMER of Israel, AND HIS HOLY ONE, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth (crucified), to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall WORSHIP, because of the LORD (YHVH) that is faithful, AND THE HOLY ONE of Israel, and he shall choose thee."

> 3. "that God can be anything other than a spirit? (For no man has seen God at anytime.)

The Lord is all powerful. He can appear to man as the angel of the Lord when it so pleases him. When Abraham sat in his tent door, "he lift up his eyes and looked, and lo, THREE MEN stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them" (Gen. 18:1,2). After he had fed the three men, two of them, who were angels, "turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before THE LORD (YHVH)" (Gen. 18:22). God the Father has NOT been seen by man, but his "son," YHVH of hosts, has been seen by man.

> 4. " that someone must die for our sins for them to be forgiven?

If we don't have a perfect sacrifice for sin, we will have to die for our own sins.

> 5. "that the New Covenant which is to come will be for anyone other than the House of Israel and the House of Judah?

Isa. 62:2 says, "And the GENTILES shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a NEW NAME, which the mouth (Logos, Word) of the LORD (YHVH) shall name."

Jn 1:1-3,14 says, "In the beginning (as in Gen. 1:1) was the Word (Logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

> From a theological standpoint I see the Jews as currently in the grave awaiting the
> third day of Hos. 6:2.

Don't you think that was fulfilled in 1948? The fig tree was grafted onto her old rootstock then. It was in the third millennium.

> Christians are condemning Jews to hell for their unbelief in Jesus as messiah. My point
> is, did they have a real choice? Wasn't this all part of God's ultimate plan of
> redemption for the whole world. If Jews are serving God according to the covenant
> given to them according to the Hebrew bible and have a personal relationship with him,
> who is to say that they are condemned?

Every man has a choice. Christians are not just condemning Jews. Any man or woman that does not accept Yeshua is lost. All mankind is saved by believing in the Redeemer, in Old Testament times, by believing that he would come, in New Testament times, by believing that he came. Because he already came, we can't go back and be saved by believing that he would come. We live in New Testament days.

The Old Will and Testament was only put in effect by God's promise. The New Will and Testament was put in effect by the death of the testator. The Will with the latest date goes into effect at death, not any previous wills. This does not negate God's promise to Abraham. All that was promised will take place. The day is soon coming that the whole world will be ruled from Israel. It will take place, not by Israel herself bringing it about, but by the LORD (YHVH) of hosts bringing it about.

Jn. 3:18 says, "God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him in not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in THE NAME of the only begotten Son of God." The NAME is (Heb.) Y'shua, (Gr.) Iesous and (English) Jesus.

He does have another name. It reveals just who he really is. Isa. 7:14 says, "the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE, AND BEAR A SON, AND SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL."

IMMANUEL MEANS GOD WITH US. Mt. 1:18-23 says, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, BEFORE they came together, she was found WITH CHILD OF THE HOLY GHOST....the angel of the Lord (the pre-incarnate YHVH of hosts) appeared unto him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost (Spirit of God). And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save HIS PEOPLE (Jews) from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US."

> there has been a partial hardening and a veil has been placed over their eyes. This has
> happened to Jews who did not reject Jesus 2000 years ago and did not witness the
> miracles and fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. So being raised a Jew actually
> means that you have a built-in impediment to receiving Jesus as Lord. I know that with
> God all things are possible, but this truly requires a miracle from God.

This same impediment is experienced by Moslems, Hindus, nonbelieving Americans, etc. Satan sees to that. However, if any person really wants to know the true God, and prays to God to open their understanding, he is obligated to get the right information to them. There are many Messianic Jews. It is not impossible that their eyes be opened. There are just not enough of them to stave off the coming disaster.

> how do I explain "And a Shoot goes out from the stump of Jesse, and a Branch will bear
> fruit out of his roots. And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest on Him; He will have the
> spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the spirit of
> knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah." How can messiah fear Yahovah and be Yahovah?

Yeshua is descended from David, son of Jesse. And the Spirit of YHVH shall rest on Him. Remember that Isa. 9:6 says that unto us a son is GIVEN. His human nature was born. His deity was GIVEN. The Spirit of God dwells in Him.

The phrase in the Old Testament, "fear of the Lord," means reverential trust, with hatred of evil.

> How can Jesus pray to God in the garden if he is God?

As a man, he could pray to his Father. There are times that he said he did that for our sakes. He was a living example of how we should try to live. We should pray to the Father, in Y'shua's name.

> Where does it state that anyone prior to the cross was justified by the "only way" Jesus?

Before the name of God's son was revealed as Jesus, it was revealed as YHVH of hosts. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. He believed that all God's promises would come to pass. The prophecy that a virgin would be with child and would bring forth a son needed to be believed in Old Testament days. For us, we have to look back and believe that it happened.

> Again, let me restate that the bottom line is not whether Jesus could be messiah. It is
> could messiah be worshipped and be both man and God?

I think I have already given you OT scriptures that show that he is YHVH of hosts. He is God's Son. He is the King of Israel. He is the son of God born of a virgin. Therefore, he should be worshipped. The only way he could die for our sins was to take on human flesh. God can't die, but man can. He proved who he was when he was resurrected. He had the power to lay down his life and to take it up again. No mere man can do that. We should believe every word that came out of his mouth. That was God talking.

Heb. 1:1-3 says, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en, in) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

> But the good is that you are telling everyone essentially the same message that Jesus
> told, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

Jesus said repent to five of the seven churches in Rev. 2 and 3. The Philadelphians that have the "open door" set before them are NOT told to repent. They already have. That is why the "open door" is set before them. It is important. At Sinai, Israel was told to wash their clothes and be ready for the third day. We should do the same. We want to be wearing white wedding robes, not robes spotted by the flesh.

Thanks for your kind remarks. I too am longing for the day when we will be with our Lord in HIS PLACE. This world is going to have the worst seven years since there was a nation. Jesus said to pray always that we would be accounted worthy to escape all these things. We need to do that.

Israel has a future, but will have to go through the fifth cycle of discipline before she gets there. It won't be fun. What is so hard to take is the thought that if she would just turn to the Lord now before it is too late, it would not have to happen. There is yet time for her to repent, change her mind.

Lev. 26:27,28 says, "And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (years) for your sins."

Over and over, the Lord gave them judges, and when they turned to the Lord, things went well with them. But they always turned away again. Then, they would only turn back to the Lord when they were about to be driven into the ground. When they had no hope, they turned to the Lord. It will happen one more time. I wish they could learn by past mistakes, but look at the situation in Jerusalem right now. The Lord gave them the temple area in 1967, and they thought it unimportant enough to their lives to give it to the Muslims. How did that make the Lord feel? Now, they are parting God's land instead of trusting him to give it to them. Oh, ye of little faith, why will ye die? It will bring judgment down on their heads. They trust in their own strength when they should trust in the Lord's strength. He is omnipotent. What is too hard for God? If he is for us, who can be against us?

God sent his Son to save them. What could God do that he has not done? Not only did they kill His Son, they killed most of His apostles. They themselves were driven out of there in 70 AD because of it. Did they learn? No! Jerusalem is now expelling missionaries that are trying to help them. During the Tribulation, they will start killing His followers again. Thinking themseves wise, they will become fools. WHY? Because they lean on their own understanding, not on the Lord. He alone is their Redeemer. Without him, they haven't a hope. Oh, there will come a day when they will have no power to save themselves again. If it weren't for the Lord, they would be wiped off the face of the Earth. In their distress, they will finally turn to the Lord. Isa. 66:8 shows that the nation will be saved in a day. That day will be the Feast of Trumpets. They will afflict their souls and the Lord will accept them on the following Day of Atonement. Finally, understanding will take hold of them. Then the Lord will restore them as at the first. But, oh, what they will have to go through to get to that point.

Wisdom is justified of her children. How I wish they had wisdom now. The beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. Do their leaders fear the Lord? Not likely, or they would not have given the temple area to the heathen. They would have been afraid to. The Lord will not give his glory to another. That is a terrible blot on their record. It will not go without punishment.

> if you take only the Old Testament scriptures by themselves, the message of the gospel
> is almost encoded in the text. You have to be on "our side of the fence" so to speak
> to be able to see the pictures and references to Jesus.

The whole Bible is about him. Before he dwelt in human flesh, he was the one with whom man had to deal. Abraham had a meal fixed for Him, walked with Him, and talked with Him. After he dwelt in human flesh, he is still the one with whom man has to deal. From "In the beginning" to "Surely I come quickly, Amen," he is the one talking, the one that inspired the whole Bible. It is all HIS STORY. If we believe it, we will see the truth, and the truth shall set us free. It is all written down. He has given us every chance to know Him and believe in Him. If we don't, it is our loss. He did his part. We have to do ours. He holds out Salvation to us as a free gift. We can take it or leave it. I only wish all would take it. If we don't, there will come a time that we will realize that it was only our own stubborness that kept us from accepting our only Saviour, our only hope of Salvation, our Y'shua. Agape

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