Pro and Con 441

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FWD: DR. PAPKE, PLEASE READ: http://home.t-online.de/home/Dr.Papke/frame_us.htm

My reply

In an article by Dr. Papke, The Total Solar Eclipse of August 11, 1999, he said,

"On August 11, 1999, sun and moon stood exactly before the Lion...At the same time, sun and moon stood near Cancer, too. The ancient considered this constellation as a cherub (karabu) of the lost paradise."

How interesting. Cancer represents the assembly of the saints in Heaven, which is a planet, one of the nine cherubim. I think our Paradise (Heaven) is our "third heaven" (II Cor. 12:2-4), i.e., Saturn.

My outgoing email

To: Richard Aaron Honorof, fms@shofars.org, author of "The Return of the Messiah the King of Glory," who thinks that the rapture should be on Shavuot this year

I am glad to find someone else besides me that thinks the Rapture is most likely next Pentecost. Because of Solomon 2:10-14, I don't think it can be on the feasts of Nisan because that is the month of the latter rain in Israel. Likewise, I don't think it can be on the feasts of Tishri because that is the month of the former rain.

Song of Solomon 2:10-14 says, "My beloved (son of David, i.e., Yah Shua, Son of David) spake, and said unto me (the bride), RISE UP, my love, my fair one, and COME AWAY. For, lo, the winter is past (then it is spring), the rain is over and gone (then Nisan is past); The flowers appear on the earth (sounds like spring on Mt. Carmel); the time of the singing of birds (of birds is not in the original; it must be the singing of the new song after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9), and the voice of the turtle (lit., turtledove, which comes to Israel in April and stays till October) is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell (i.e., late May or early June). Arise, my love, my fair one, and COME AWAY. O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock (i.e., in Yah Shua, our rock), in the secret places (places is not in the original) of the stairs." This seems to be the secret of the stairs, like Jacob's ladder.

If the time of the former and latter rain eliminates six of the seven feasts, the only one left is Shavuot (Pentecost). It is a time when the Holy Spirit of God FILLED the disciples in 30 AD and therefore seems a perfect time for Yah Shua to catch up those that are FILLED with the Holy Spirit of God in our days.

Things that happened to Israel are examples to us upon whom the ends of the ages has come. When the Israelites were at Sinai, they were espoused to Yah Veh on or near Shavuot. The pavement seen under his feet was sapphire, as the body of heaven in its clearness. It seems to suggest that Mt. Sinai represented Heaven. The people were represented as being under the mountain, as if it was up in the air. When the trumpet sounded long and the Lord called Moses up sounds like a type of the Rapture, when the Bride of Yah Shua is caught up to Heaven.

I think the Six-Day War of 1967 was the Sign of the End of the Age. Israel grew leaves (Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and West Bank), fulfilling the fig tree parable of Mt. 24. One 40-year generation from then is 2007. I expect the millennial Day of the Lord to begin on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). I think that will be the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the 70th week of Daniel and the time when all Israel will be born in a day (Isa. 66:8). Counting by inclusive reckoning, this places the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel on the Feast of Weeks, 5761, a perfect time for it to begin.

When Joseph was in Egypt, there were 7 good years and 7 bad years. He took up 1/5th of the grain in the 7 good years. This seems to be a type of things in our days. I think the 7 good years began when the Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. The Accords were ratified 3 days later in Israel, on Tishri 1, 5754. If you start with Sept. 13, 1993 and add the 7 good years and the 7 bad years, you come to Sept. 13, 2007. If you start with Tishri 1, 5754, add the 14 years, you come to Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. Both ways, you end up on Sept. 13, 2007. To me, that seems like something God would arrange. Not only that, but the Final Status Agreement is slated to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. It would make good sense for it to be "confirmed," made stronger, on the following Feast of Weeks. Since I think the 1/5th of the grain Joseph took up is a type of the grain wave loaves on Shavuot, and therefore of us as wheat too, I think this next Shavuot (Pentecost) seems most likely for the Rapture. It should take place in the 7 good years, and we are in the last one of those now.

Why do you think Shavuot, 5760 is the most likely for the Rapture? Shalom

Incoming Email

Hi! I'm impressed with your site, I'm a new Christian and ex-Mormon missionary, I have found a great love for the bible, and enjoy memorizing whole books, (1 thess included). I have taken a year of bible classes but bailed at the first hint of legalism, I find myself obsessed with witnessing and studying the word.

My dilemma: I was helping to encourage a backsliden Christian, when the topic turned to the rapture of the saints, I was embarrassed by my lack of knowledge, I believe in the pre-trib. rapture but he told me that he had proof that we will go through the tribulation, Matt 24:22. I believe that these elect are those saved during the tribulation, I would like to be able to prove this in some way to this person and help him return to the Lord in his heart as his testimony is weakened, if you can help I will appreciate it very much, and will also send you a copy of all correspondence, this could be beneficial in helping others that don't believe in the rapture, also if you have any questions about Mormonism from a first hand source I'm available and happy to answer all questions.

a fellow soldier in Christ

My reply

Thanks. I am so glad to hear from you. I have been praying for the Mormon John McDonnell (poetica@sound.net) to understand and accept Christ. He has a web site, but I do not have the URL now. Maybe you can help him. You can speak his language, since you have been there. He does not believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. I will copy our first email exchange below after I explain some about the two Raptures, Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath.

> Matt 24:22. I believe that these elect are those saved during the tribulation

You are right. There are elect OT saints (Isa. 65:9), elect church saints (Col. 3:12) and elect Tribulation saints. The foolish virgins of Mt. 25:1-10 and the Laodiceans of Rev. 3:14-22 are rejected at the Pre-Trib Rapture and are caught up at the Pre-Wrath Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath before the seventh seal is broken releasing the 7 trumpet judgments.

Mt. 24:22 is talking to the elect of the Tribulation. For their sake, the days of the last half of the 7-year Tribulation will be shortened.

Mt. 24:15 starts out this section of the Olivet Discourse in the middle of the 7-year Tribulation. When the False Prophet becomes Satan possessed, sits in the temple and puts an image at the temple, the Great Tribulation begins. Everything from Mt. 24:15-31 happens during the 1040 days of the shortened Great Tribulation. Dan. 8:14 shows us that the entire time is 2300 days, and 2300 - 1260 = 1040. So the first half of the Tribulation is 1260 days (Rev. 11:4) and the last part is 1040 days.

There are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture takes place before the Tribulation, BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is broken in Rev. 6. That group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9: "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." John is one of the 24 elders. They are the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. When John is caught up when the Lord says, "Come up hither" in Rev. 4:1, we are caught up with him. We are in Heaven singing the new song in Rev. 5:9.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place BETWEEN the breaking of the SIXTH SEAL (Rev. 6:12) and the SEVENTH SEAL (Rev. 8). Rev. 7:9,14 says, "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." These are in Heaven 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12).

In the Old Testament, the Pre-Trib Rapture was presented, but not understood. It was a mystery that Paul explained clearly in I Thess. 4:13-18. With hindsight, we can now see the Pre-Trib Rapture and those left behind to go through the Tribulation in Isa. 57:1-3,15,20,21. It says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPE, EVACUATE), and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are TAKEN AWAY (the Pre-Trib Rapture), none considering that the RIGHTEOUS (i.e., wise virgin with plenty of the oil of the Holy Spirit) is taken away FROM the evil TO COME (the Tribulation). He shall enter into peace (heavenly peace): they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw NEAR hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore (the harlot church of the Tribulation is near)....For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place (Heaven), WITH HIM also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones....But THE WICKED are like the troubled sea, when it CANNOT REST, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

In Rev. 3:10,11, we can see that the righteous are taken away FROM the Tribulation trial that is to come upon the whole Earth. It says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (peirasmos, trial), which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try (peirasai) them that dwell upon the earth (during the Tribulation). Behold, I come quickly (at the Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." There are no such crowns mentioned for the Tribulation saints, but Rev. 5:10 says of those in the first Rapture, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth."

We can see hints of both Raptures in Micah 7:1-10. It says, "Woe is me! for I am as (symbolic language, he's play acting) when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage (Rapture II will be Tishri 1, the time of the vintage): there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit (Rapture I at Pentecost, the time of the firstripe grapes). The good man is perished (abad, ESCAPED, EVACUATED) out of the earth (at Pentecost): and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net. That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward (bribe)...now shall be their perplexity (the Tribulation)....I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me (the Judgment Seat of Christ is the day of Rapture II): he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is mine enemy shall see it, and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the LORD thy God?"

This "perplexity" of the Tribulation is seen in Lu. 21:25: "And there shall be SIGNS in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with PERPLEXITY, the sea and the waves roaring" (i.e., the "troubled sea" of Isa. 57:20). "And when these things BEGIN to come to pass (the signs in the sun, moon and stars), then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption (the Pre-Trib Rapture) draweth nigh."

We can see the first Rapture in Psa. 40:1,2. It says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me UP also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth, as Jeremiah was taken up out of a miry pit), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the first Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

These that see it and trust in the Lord are God's elect of the Tribulation. Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."

The first Rapture is depicted in I Thess. 4:13-18. It is the first trump and is as the days of Noah. No fire falls, only rain.

The second Rapture is depicted in I Cor. 15:51,52. It is at the "last trump" and is as the days of Lot. Fire falls that same day. Each Rapture is "one of the days of the Son of man." There are two.

Lu. 17:22-32 says, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them (he is now addressing those in the Great Tribulation). For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day (this is the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 and Rev. 6:14-17). But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days (plural, there are two) of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage (the first group seems to be the Bride of Christ), until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all (type of the Tribulation that follows Rapture I). Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded (no marriage mentioned; they are the rest of the Body of Christ). But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom (type of Rapture II) it rained FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, and destroyed them all."

The "world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Peter 3:6,7).

Continuing in Lu. 17:30,32, it says, "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (the Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30). In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife" (she didn't make it). There is no use grabbing anything when the Rapture is going to take place.

Of the Feast of Trumpets that begins the Millennium, Mark 13:27 says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Rapture of the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of heaven" (the saints that were caught up before the Tribulation). All are called to the assembly on that day to stand before the Lord at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

All saints are in Heaven at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest GIVE REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, AND TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

When the False Prophet "shall come to his end" (Dan. 11:45), i.e., be deposed on this Day of God's Wrath, "at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time (the Day of Jacob's Trouble, the 2300th day of the Tribulation, Dan. 8:14) thy people (Israelites) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake" (Dan. 12:1,2). This is the Pre-Wrath Rapture that takes place between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. As soon as these saints are gathered in Heaven the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place. There will be rewards for the saints in Heaven and Wrath for the unbelievers left on Earth.

In Rev. 4:1. A "door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET (the first trump) TALKING with me; which said, "Come up hither." This is "the trump of God" and the "shout" in I Thess. 4:16. After these are heard, v. 17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Agape

Incoming Email

Hi there, i was just wondering what is your religious background. Thanks

My reply

Baptist, but I have attended some very good non-denominational churches too. Agape
Incoming Email Re: DR. PAPKE - PLEASE READ
Greetings! I pray you are doing well. Regarding stars... I read the article at the location below and found it interesting. I am sending it your way as this appears to be an area of focus at this time. I would be interested in hearing what you think.
(http://home.t-online.de/home/Dr.Papke/frame_us.htm) God bless you.

My reply

Thanks. This article on the Star of Bethlehem is interesting.

I can accept that a new star could have appeared in COMA (anciently Comah, the desired or longed for, as in Psa 63:1). Bullinger said, "There was a traditional prophecy, well-known in the East, carefully preserved and handed down, that a new star would appear IN THIS SIGN when He whom it foretold should be born."

In VIRGO, the emphasis is on the virgin who is to bring forth a seed or branch who shall have dominion. In the first decan, COMA, the emphasis shifts to the child.

The Denderah Zodiac of Egypt is older than BC 2000. On it we find in the picture of COMA the interesting foot stool. The rear leg of the stool the virgin sits on is drawn like a human leg and foot. This shows us that this child ("the desire of all nations," Hag. 2:7) is to be born on Earth. Isa. 66:1 says, "Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my FOOTSTOOL."

In "How I Identified the Star of Bethlehem," Dr. Werner Papke said, The enigma of the Star of Bethlehem has now been solved. Latest research reveals it was a new star that suddenly appeared at the "Throne of God" in the very womb of the ancient Babylonian constellation of the Virgin (ERUA) at 6:30 p.m. just after sunset on August 30 in 2 B.C. exactly when Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

"Now, when on a modern star chart we look for this Babylonian Virgin sitting on a throne behind the Lion and beneath the Great Bear we will seek her in vain. Instead we will at this site of the starry sphere find the "Hair of Berenice" (Coma Berenices). Why is this? The Greeks later on shifted this celestial Virgin down into the zodiacal belt beneath the original constellation ERUA so that it came to lie along the ecliptic between the Lion and the Scales - just where we can see her now on every star globe. At the site of the original Virgin ERUA the astronomer Conon of Samos in 246 B.C. finally inserted the "Hair of Berenice", which we now call by the Latin name Coma Berenices. This constellation occupies the womb of the original Virgin ERUA, and, as we will see immediately, it was just in the midst of her womb the new star appeared when Jesus was born."

I don't think COMA was moved down and became VIRGO, and I don't see how BC 2 can fit Jesus' birth. The temple was begun in BC 19/20. The 46th year in building was 27 AD, the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry. In 26 AD, Jesus was baptized in the 15th year of Tiberius, who began to co-reign with Augustus in 12 AD. He was practically the sole ruler over Palestine from then on as Augustus concerned himself with other parts of the Empire. The Crucifixion was in 30 AD, 40 years of testing and probation before the burning of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD. Eze. 4:6 says, "thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

Dr. Papke thinks the sign of the woman in Rev. 12 is COMA. I'm not ready to accept that. He also says,

"Balaam...This heathen seer one and a half thousand years B.C. prophecied of a "Star" that "shall come out of Jacob...This Star of Balaam obviously will be nothing else but the mysterious "sign of the Son of man"27 which is to appear in the sky just at the moment when Jesus will be descending to the earth once more."

I think Christ will be seen sitting on a throne when the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30) is seen when the smoky atmosphere is rolled back like a scroll. Rev. 6:16 says that men say "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb." This is also 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12). Dr. Papke may run a bit too far with his material.

Other thoughts that come to mind. All 12 patriarchs came out of Jacob, but Jesus came out of Judah. Here is the list of the patriarchs and their signs.

1. Virgo - Zebulon - Aug 23-Sept 22 - TISHRI 1, TRUMPETS, JESUS' BIRTH, RAPTURE 2, "his season"
2. Libra - Levi - Sept 23-Oct 23
3. Scorpio - Dan - Oct 24-Nov 21
4. Saggitarius - Asher - Nov 22-Dec 21
5. Capricornus - Nephtali - Dec 22-Jan 19
6. Aquarius - Reuben - Jan 20-Feb 18
7. Pisces - Simeon - Feb 19-Mar 20
8. Aries - Gad - Mar 21-Apr 19 - NISAN 1, SECOND ADVENT, "his season," Job 38:32; De 11:14)
9. Taurus - Joseph - Apr 20-May 20
10 GEMINI - Benjamin (son of the right hand) - May 21-Jun 21 - PENTECOST (RAPTURE I?)
11 Cancer - Issachar - June 22-July 22
12 Leo - Judah - July 23-Aug 22 - camped on the EAST

Nu. 24:17 says, "there shall come a Star out of Jacob (i.e., out of Judah), and a Sceptre (King) shall rise out of Israel." Judah's sign was LEO, and Jesus is "the Lion of the tribe of Juda" (Rev. 5:5). LEO represents Christ as King.

The gospel in the stars starts with Virgo and ends with Leo. Christ is king in the end of the story.

Next May 4,5, the massing of the 5 planets that are leaving Aries and entering Taurus, plus the Sun amd Moon (7 heavenly bodies), may herald the Rapture. Gemini seems to be the sign of the Rapture, and it follows Taurus.

Incoming Email

I have read your page for several years now and I am patiently waiting with you. I appreciate all your work. Nearly every ministry, large and small, seem to be calling for a world wide revival. Even Pat Robertson came out yesterday and said that is what God is showing him. I don't have a definite opinion about Robertson, but I did think it strange that most of what he said had to do with the stock market. Hmm... Anway, I would like to know what you think about this mass revival. It isn't that I don't want that to happen, it just doesn't seem to be in the scriptures. Sometimes they quote things about an outpouring of the spirit that relates to Israel and they try to make it fit the gentile church. I am really confused about why they all think this. I appreciate anything you can add to my understanding. God Bless your house

My reply

I am not sure there will be a great revival before the first Rapture, although there is a push on to evangelize the world in 2000. I do hope it goes great guns. Those lukewarm Christians left behind and those that see the Rapture, fear and trust the Lord (Psa. 40:1-3) will probably bring about revival after we are gone. There will be so many that they can't be numbered in the second Rapture (Rev. 7:9,14). Agape

Incoming Email

While telescopes typically zoom in on a narrow region of sky and turn a pinpoint of light into something dramatic to behold and study, broad surveys of the sky are often the first step in the process of investigation. Such a view, released last week by the European Southern Observatory, contains one of the largest numbers of galaxies ever revealed in a single image.

Using the Wide Field Imager at the ESO's La Silla Observatory in Chile, researchers produced the image as part of an effort to create a census of deep space and to gauge the colors and shapes of various distant galaxies, star clusters and other objects. The resulting catalogue helps ferret out which items most warrant further study.

The Wide Field Imager is coupled with a 67-million pixel digital camera that records more than 90 percent of all incoming photons from a relatively large patch of sky -- equivalent to the diameter of the Moon as it appears from Earth. ESO researchers said the original high-resolution version of the resulting image, in which 28 exposures were combined, shows 100,000 distant galaxies, in addition to a few foreground stars from our own Milky Way. Researchers said if the sky in every direction is as populous as the patch recorded in this image, then there are some 15,000 million galaxies. And that, they say, would only be the number observable with current technology. Each of the 100,000 galaxies is thought to hold more than 100,000 million stars.

My reply

Whew! That's a lot. God has been b u s y. And there are about 3000, called the Coma-Virgo Cluster, just between Virgo and Coma. It is one of the largest clusters that populate the universe and also one of the nearest. They lie between 40 and 70 million light-years away. The galaxy M87 may have 3 million million stars in it, 30 times what is in our own galaxy.

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