Pro and Con 446

Uploaded 1-24-00

Note: The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, translated from the very old MSS found in the Qumran caves, sheds light on the meaning of TAURUS, the wild ox. Nu. 23:22 says, "God, who brings them (Israel) out of Egypt, is like the HORNS OF THE WILD OX for them." 24:8 expands on this. It says, God, who brings him out of Egypt, is like the HORNS OF THE WILD OX for him; he will devour the nations who are his adversaries, and will break their bones in pieces, and run them through with his arrows."

The planets moving from ARIES (the ram lying down) to TAURUS (the charging wild ox) May 4,5, 2000, is like a warning to "the nations who are his adversaries" today. God loves Israel and will defend her.

Incoming Email

I recently read your new "Space to Repent" page. I very much enjoyed it. Anyway, I had a thought come to mind regarding the Gamma Ray Burster of 1/23/99 that you spoke of. Specifically, you stated that the burst is reported to have been 110 seconds long in duration. When I read that I couldn't help but wonder if the length of the burst held significance for us as part of a sign. I wondered how long is 110 seconds in Gods time. Well, "If a day with the Lord is like a thousand years" (2nd Peter 3:8), how long is 110 seconds? If I did the math correctly, its 464.7 days. 465 days from 1/23/99 is 5/2/00. That's only about one week after Easter, (or 2 seconds) depending on your perspective. Interesting!

My reply

Glad you enjoyed the new Home Page. Did you see the total eclipse of the Moon last night? It was strange how the Moon seemed to be closer to us while it looked brownish orange. Maybe it was because it truly looked like a sphere instead of a disk. As it began to be shadowed, we had light clouds over it, but some stars were visible in other parts of the sky. When it was total, the clouds parted. Nearby stars were seen too. Later, clouds obscured everything.

> 465 days from 1/23/99 is 5/2/00

Yes, it's interesting. Have you considered the massing of planets with the Sun and Moon as the planets are moving from Aries to Taurus on May 4/5? It is said to be the first alignment of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn in 6000 years. There also will be a Venus, Jupiter, Saturn conjunction May 17/18, Venus and Jupiter close in the morning of May 17 and Venus with Saturn a few hours later, on May 18. On May 27, Jupiter and Saturn will be in conjunction again, an eventful month.

I just happened to glance at my open Bible between my keyboard and computer. Amos 5:8 jumped out at me because I have it redlined, "Seek him that maketh the seven stars (Pleiades) and Orion." Very good advise.

Incoming Email

Re: Getting It Straight ...I'm a Catholic. I am a regular reader of your site and Five Dove's. Thank God for sending all of you to help us in this crucial time. May the Lord continue blessing you and those who have been helping you, and may He continue guiding you in your works.

Mrs. Agee, reading your Pro&Con posts, I keep seeing the two words that I think are being used wrongly, or projecting/suggesting negative images, in the letters from the readers. Some of us refer to those who are not caught up the first time as the "left behind". By definition, they are used correctly. But in the context, I see a lot of negative in them. If we don't think carefully, we may not be called to meet Him at all!

Please don't under estimate or misjudge these "left behind" people. Before Him, they may be perfectly clean, somewhat clean, or may not even clean at all. But what if they're "left behind" for a purpose? Say, on His purpose, there will be a great number whom are of God's best army to fight the evil, to serve and protect Jesus' astrayed sheep during this shorten tribulation, and at the same time, to help Him bring them back to the Good Shepherd. He said not one sheep will be lost, didn't He?

That's such hard work. But, He knows us more than we know ourselves. If He thinks we can do it, we can. And whom among us can claim to know His plan? I certainly don't, but He may have all the resources setup for us to use already. He created this marvelous harmonic universe, He can plan and provide individually for millions of us left behind to complete His works. Oh yes, He certainly can.

So, what will I do if I am left behind? Will I sob oh God, what have I done or haven't done to deserve this? Then, get scared thinking about what I'll have to go through? Fear is natural to us human being, but we have to understand that to fear is to doubt. When I fear, I doubt His help, I doubt His grace. And before I know it, His help, grace and strength will depart from me. I won't fear when I see you going up to meet Him in the clouds. I will cry, but out of joy. I'll give thanks to God that He decided to take you home first. I'll also thank Him for letting me be part of His plan. Maybe I need to go through more trails to be cleansed further for my forgotten (thus unrepented) sins. Maybe He wants me to help others, or even to go through martyrdom. Whatever it is, I'll pray fervently for His forgiveness, His strength, courage, and guidance, that I will not disappoint Him, and I'll ask you, my brothers and sisters now that you're up there, to pray for and help me complete His requirements, so I may join you later.

In all, please don't look at the "left behind" negatively, not for their sake, but ours - we may misjudge them in doing so. Remember: first will be last, and last will be first. I would personally avoid using those words.

Trust in Jesus Christ with all your heart, all your soul; Truly love and truly forgive everyone, and you'll be okay. God bless you all. Peace.

My reply

> Some of us refer to those who are not caught up the first time as the "left
> behind"...I would personally avoid using those words.

Maybe it would be far better for us to use the actual language Jesus used. The translators softened it, so maybe you misunderstood. Remember that judgement starts at the house of God. In Rev. 3:16, Jesus said to the Laodiceans (which means people of judgment), "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue (emesai, vomit) thee out of my mouth." Jesus didn't mince his words. These are to be CHASTIZED. Verse 19 says, "As many as I love, I REBUKE and CHASTEN: BE ZEALOUS therefore, and REPENT."

The FOOLISH virgins were left outside the door, which stands for the Rapture. The Philadelphians (which means brotherly love) have the "open door" set before them (Rev. 3:8). They are not told to repent, because they already have.

Repenting involves confessing our KNOWN sins to God. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Do you remember when Jesus washed Peter's feet? Peter objected, and Jesus said, "If I wash thee not, thou hast NO PART WITH ME." He also said, He that is washed (i.e., has asked Christ to be his Saviour) needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit" (Jn. 13:8-10). Confessing our known sins brings them under the blood of Christ. We are allowing Jesus to wash our feet.

The Tribulation saints "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14) before they are caught up to Heaven. This is another way of saying it. It all boils down to confessing those known sins to God so he can cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness, including the unknown sins.

Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (foolish one) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will APPOINT HIM HIS PORTION WITH THE UNBELIEVERS."

Mt. 24:51 adds, "cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders, Pharisee types): there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

The Lord never leaves himself without a witness. I think the first Rapture will be seen. Psalm 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (out of the Earth), out of the miry clay (our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (the heavenly planet), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture in Revelation 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

I have an idea that these will be among those that are willing to die for their faith. They will be on fire for the Lord. Moses and Elijah will prophecy 1260 days too. There will be a great multitude out of all nations caught up to Heaven in Rapture 2 (Rev. 7:9,14).

> But what if they're "left behind" for a purpose?

We mustn't manufacture something like this that is not stated in Scripture. None will be lost, but some will get to heaven by the skin of their teeth, having built wood, hay and stubble on the foundation which is Christ.

> to help Him bring them back to the Good Shepherd

Christ is God. He is the Shepherd, and is totally able to accomplish what he wants to do.

> Remember: first will be last, and last will be first.

That is not exactly what Scripture says. Lu. 13:30 says, "there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last." God is fair. He is perfect justice. We each get exactly what we deserve.

> So, what will I do if I am left behind? Will I sob oh God, what have I done

Mt. 24:51 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

> Trust in Jesus Christ with all your heart, all your soul; Truly love and
> truly forgive everyone, and you'll be okay.

The Laodiceans think they are ok too, but Jesus makes it clear that they should repent or be chastised.

Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." What do we need to do to be accounted worthy?

The foolish virgins are told, "I know you not" (Mt. 25:12). Do you think they are a chosen army to bring people back to the good shepherd? No. They are the Tribulation saints that need to wash their robes in the blood of Christ. They did not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to be caught up as the Bride of Christ.

Incoming Email

Agreement on June 10th
Greetings in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Glory to the Holy and Consubstantial Trinity!

The following is a very lengthy exposition on why I believe that your date of June 10th is correct (if I may be so bold as to speak in confirmation of your own detailed scholarship).After reading a passing comment you made in a previous P&C, I was absolutely floored by the implication for my own assessment of your date-setting (you see, I have always hoped that your dates might be correct, but in my own mind there had to be a consonance between the dates you have set and the calendars which are used by the Jews and by both the Western and Eastern Christians.In my own prayers, I had been saying to God something to the effect "If the date of June 10th is correct, then I know You will show me how it fits in with the Orthodox Christian calendar" -- and with your passing comment I felt like God whispered in my ear "OK, there it is!").But before I launch into my argument in support of June 10th, let me digress for a moment to offer you some accolades and a thank-you.

I have been reading your web-site faithfully since April of 1998.I was told of you site by a co-worker who had read an article in Time Magazine (or maybe it was Newsweek) which dealt with the "end times."This co-worker was making jokes about the article and about the various people and web-sites which were mentioned in the article, but he didn't know that this was a subject dear to my heart. I eagerly looked up the sites; one of them was yours.I was impressed from the first moment with your personal sincerity and with your spiritual and intellectual humility.You have been brave enough to put forth your ideas for everyone to read and to criticize (in both charitable and harsh ways).You have studied long and hard and after many years you are still studying long and hard; you came up with some conclusions which you published and when those dates didn't come through, you were humble enough to go back through your notes and then give it another try.When last year's date didn't come through yet again, many a person would have thrown up his/her hands in despair or have just become hardened.But you did just the opposite, you went back to square one and started again.All this time you have been genuine and sincere, and you have trusted all of "us" out here in cyber-space with your most dear and cherished dream (which is the same cherished dream of many of us).You have thought out loud, so to speak, through your P&C's and given all of "us" the chance to think out loud along with you.A little bit here, and a little bit there; people from all over the world (South Africa, New Zealand, China, Great Britain, Scandinavia, I can't even recall all of the places identified over these last couple of years), all contributing to our common goal of watching and waiting for Jesus.As I say, you continue to study and ponder, but above all you also pray and hold yourself accountable to the Lord.The latest version of your main web-page says it all: you encourage your readers (and yourself) to pray for sanctification, to search ourselves for sin and to offer it all to God in humble submission and repentance.We want to be ready for Him.We all long for the Rapture because we long for Him.The fact that you devote all of your time (when you're not taking care of Ed, and before she fell asleep in the Lord, of Millie) and all of your energy to searching the Scriptures for clues about His coming shows that you long for Him; and He has called you to this work, and has given you the Grace to persevere in it for the sake of all of us who likewise wait for Him.We are all cheered and encouraged by your efforts.Thank you (and thanks to Ed!) -- And thanks to the Lord for giving this job to someone who will see it through to the end.All of "us" all around the world thank you.

Now, back to the exciting revelation which came by way of some comments offered by you to a reader who asked about the date of the Rapture.Your passing comment was that you stand open to the date being either the 9th or the 10th, but you favor the 10th.You were talking about the reason that the year 2000 seemed to be the third year, the conclusion to the time of preparation which began in 1997; you mentioned the parable of the fig tree, how the master returned in the 3rd year; you made mention that Jesus came to the Apostles 3 times at Mt. Tabor (at the Transfiguration); that the Lord rose on the 3rd day, etc. Then it HIT me -- a 3-day interval!!!Why hadn't I noticed this before?! Of course, it must be June 10th; allow me to explain what I mean.

Back in 1998 I wrote you to say that I had been thinking that Easter/Pentecost of 2001 would be the time to watch because this was the first time in many years when all Christians throughout the world would be celebrating the Feasts of Easter/Pentecost at the same time. I am an Orthodox Christian, and as you know the dates of Easter (or as we say "Pascha") are often a week to a month different from the Western Christian celebration due to the usage of the Julian calendar in figuring the date of Pascha. However, 2001 will be a rare coincidence when the dates for the Julian and the Gregorian calendars coincide. Not only this, but there have been discussions within the Orthodox Christian jurisdictions which would change the Orthodox method of calculating Pascha beginning with this 2001 coincidence so as to bring the calendars into alignment thereafter. This means that from 2001 onwards the dates would always coincide (this may seem like a little thing to those who are not Orthodox, but to even hear that such a thing is being discussed is incredible within Orthodoxy). We know, of course, that you have determined that Pentecost of 2001 will be the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation. The date of Pentecost comes from the date of Passover/Easter/Pascha. So to have the calendars coincide at the beginning of the Tribulation seems to me to be a very important sign.

Now why do I say this? I have always believed that the calendars we use are God's way of keeping us on track. I have believed that God would not reveal something to one part of the Church without making it plain to all parts of the Church -- or at the very least, that each part of the Church (not that the Church, as the Body of Christ is separated or in parts, we have separated jurisdictions -- Western Christians and Eastern Christians -- because over the years men have yielded to the whisperings of the Evil One and to their own selfish desires and have pridefully separated us one from another), that each part of the Church would be following Him in ways which would all be summed-up at the end. So, as you have been making calculations using the Jewish calendar, and tying it in with the Gregorian calendar (that is, with the calendar of the Western Church), then somehow the calculations would also have to square-up with the calendar of the Eastern Church (God is not just saving Protestants). However, the more I pondered this, the more chaotic it all seemed: the calendars were so different. Where was the connection?  You have used Jewish Feasts to determine the date of the Rapture. But I believe that the Rapture would have to be connected with a major Feast day of the Church -- and it couldn't be only for the Western Church. But except for 2001, I couldn't find a connection. I have been hoping that June 10th, 2000 would be the date; but I couldn't bring myself to a commitment because it seemed to leave out the Eastern Church. I did not believe that God would invest so much Grace on the Orthodox Church in the East over these last 2000 years, the martyrs, the saints, the great teachers and Bible scholars, the miracles of endurance under the yoke of Communism and Islam, without including the Eastern Church in this, our most precious Hope.

Now if you had determined that the date of the Rapture would be on June the 8th, I would have been jumping up and down with glee; June 8th is the date of Orthodox Christian Ascension. But you said the 10th, or maybe the 9th. Close. Very close. But no match. Then I read the comment about the "3rd day"-- and EUREKA! This explains not only why we can ALL expect June 10th as the Rapture, and how this ties together the Western and Eastern Christian calendars, but also how the coincidence of the dates for Easter/Pascha in 2001 figures in. The Rapture on June 10th not only brings together all of us who long to be with Jesus, but it is the Lord's way of pulling together all of the loose strands of separated Christendom and Judaism, of straightening out all of the seemingly jumbled calendars, so that everything will coincide throughout the 7 years of the Tribulation -- and beyond.

Last year you pondered the ten-day period between Christ's Ascension on the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Why ten days?  What a strange interval. What could it mean? I think that the calendar differences had been figured-in by God from the outset (that is, He knew that the Evil One would try to throw us into confusion and chaos through dividing the Church), and that what we are seeing is the turning of the cylinders in a lock: before, everything looked out of phase, but now the pieces are turning just right so that everything is coming into alignment.

On June 8th, the Orthodox Christians will celebrate the Ascension of Christ. "On the 3rd day" (June 10th, by inclusive reckoning), Christ will raise us up. Then the next day (June 11th) is Whitsunday, that is, Pentecost Sunday for Western Christians. Ten days after Orthodox Christian Ascension is Orthodox Pentecost; it is also Trinity Sunday for Western Christians. This is the moment that the "date cylinders" fall into alignment. The calendars now begin their march together to Easter/Pascha/Passover 2001, and the beginning of the Tribulation at Pentecost -- one year after this Pentecost, the 4th year in the parable of the fig tree.

Thus, there are ten days between Orthodox Christian Ascension and Orthodox Christian Pentecost. This period is divided into a period of 3 days and 7 days. The first day is June 8th; the "third day" is June 10th (the Rapture and Shavout, and the eve of Western Christian Pentecost Sunday). That Pentecost Sunday, following on the Rapture, is an inverse of the first Pentecost: The Holy Spirit has removed Himself with the faithful believers, the "restrainer" removes Himself. Also, on the first Pentecost, the disciples spoke in tongues proclaiming with joy the advent of the Kingdom of God; on this Pentecost the sound will be of lamentation as those who are left behind realize their foolishness.

The second section of 7 days commences on Western Pentecost and ends on Orthodox Pentecost. Those Christians who are left will finally come to the realization that the Scriptures are true. Some may make excuses and fall further into apostasy, but for those who are shaken to their senses (like the foolish virgins standing before the closed door) the 7 days following June 10th will be nearly intolerable: not only will they realize they've been left behind, but the Comforter has removed Himself, as well. Then as June 18th ends (which is both Orthodox Christian Pentecost and the Western Christian Trinity Sunday), I believe something amazing will happen to those who are mourning, something which befits the infinite love of God. As I said earlier, this is the time when the calendars begin to roll forward together. The following day, Monday, June 19th, is the first day of the last year before the 7 year Tribulation. June 19th is also a special Feast day for Orthodox Christians called Holy Spirit Day -- it is a celebration of the coming of the Holy Spirit, a sort of recapitulation of Pentecost Sunday. I think that the Holy Spirit will return on that day to give all of those Christians who have been left behind the biggest revival that this planet has ever seen. This will prepare the way for Moses and Elijah, and will give those Christians who were left behind, and all those who will become Christians, the spiritual strength to give their lives for Christ in martyrdom. The Holy Spirit has to be active in some way during the Tribulation because no one would be able to stand against the Evil One and to offer himself/herself for martyrdom unless God were to give him/her the strength. I don't believe that this contradicts your view that the Holy Spirit, as the "restrainer," is not present. I think that this is a different way that He comes upon the remainder of the Church. With all of this, I feel confirmed and peaceful in believing that June 10th is the day of our Blessed Hope.

Now that I've put my ideas out there for all to examine, I hope that they may provoke a healthy exchange of ideas. May the Lord give us all the Grace to be ready for His coming.
Peace and Agape.

My reply

Wow! thanks for the accolades. I just want to do what the Lord wants me to do, not for my glory, I don't need that, but for His. I want to use whatever talents he gave me to do His will.

> there have been discussions within the Orthodox Christian jurisdictions which would
> change the Orthodox method of calculating Pascha beginning with this 2001 coincidence
> so as to bring the calendars into alignment thereafter.  This means that from 2001
> onwards the dates would always coincide

Thanks for this news. How like the Lord to arrange this. He is in complete control. However, it seems to me that the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14 will still need to be counted by inclusive reckoning on the Jewish Calendar.

> June 8th is the date of Orthodox Christian Ascension. But you said the 10th, or maybe
> the 9th. Close. Very close. But no match. Then I read the comment about the "3rd day"--
> and EUREKA!

Before we get too settled on June 10, we should keep in mind that there is another day to consider. I keep mulling over Ascension Day. We are the Body of Christ, and Jesus ascended 40 days after the Resurrection for some very good reason. Could it also be our ascension day? On the Jewish Talmudic Calendar, the 40th day will be Wed., Iyar 26, 5760 (our May 31, 2000). There should be green figs and firstripe grapes (Song of Sol., 2:10-14) on Ascension Day as well as Pentecost.

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible is not complete. It is just what they found that they could read. However, what is there is great because the MSS are a lot older than anything we had previously. The oldest are thought to be from the middle of the 3rd century BC.

Nu. 13:20-24 (DDSB) tells of Moses sending the spies into Canaan. It says, "Now the time was the SEASON OF THE FIRST RIPE GRAPES....So THEY WENT UP, and entered, and spied out the land...And THEY WENT UP through the Negev...And they came to the Valley of Eshcol (a bunch of grapes), and cut down from there a branch with ONE CLUSTER OF GRAPES on it, and they carried it on a pole."

As I read this, I thought of Song of Solomon 7:8. It says of the Shulamite (KJV), "This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to CLUSTERS OF GRAPES." This reminds me of the "two armies" (i.e., 2 Raptures) the Shulamite stands for in 6:13. In 7:12, the Bride speaks. She says, "Let us get up early to the vineyards; let us see if the vine flourish, whether the TENDER GRAPE appear." All this in conjuction with Song of Sol. 2:10-14 makes me think the season of the first Rapture is the time of the firstripe grapes. That could be Ascension Day (40th day) or Pentecost (50th day). The spies "returned from searching of the land after FORTY DAYS." Hmmmmmm, is there a tie in with the 40th day?

> I don't believe that this contradicts your view that the
> Holy Spirit, as the "restrainer," is not present.

The Holy Spirit/Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ is omnipresent. Therefore he is present all the time, but restrains the wicked one no more after we are gone. Can you think of any scripture that could indicate another outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost? Joel 2:28 applies "afterward," after Christ is "in the midst of Israel" (v. 27), after He returns as the "latter rain" (v. 23). However, if the outpouring in 30 AD was like that mentioned in Joel, there could be another outpouring like that mentioned in Joel. If we were to go up on Ascension Day, I see no reason that the precedent wouldn't be set for the descent of the Holy Spirit to the Tribulation saints on Pentecost, as you thought of.

Let's keep an open mind on this and look for more clues. It looks like we know the season--spring. Both days have a tie-in with the Body of Christ. Whether the Rapture is Ascension Day or Pentecost doesn't make a lot of difference. I'll gladly settle for either. The Rapture will be our ascension day whenever it is.

In spite of this, there are good reasons to opt for Pentecost. Jesus went away on Ascension Day and sent the Spirit of Christ back to believers on Pentecost. The 2 loaves were to be brought out of their homes. Their sons were to be brought to the Lord that day too. I just want to make sure I cover all bases. I don't want to say later, "Now why didn't I think of that?" Agape

Note: Col. 2:16 says, "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the body is of Christ." This makes Pentecost seem more likely, since it was set up as a feast day.

   Links   Or Return  Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 1-24-00