Pro and Con 453
Incoming Email I am a jewish christian, and I came across your page and started reading all your material.
Now you have two dates for the rapture, May 22, 2000 and June 9th or 10th, 20000. So which one is correct? I see so many things on the internet and also in churches and among teachers of GOD...False Prophets...False Prophecies...and last but not least Apostacy. So how can you as a person know the time in which our Yeshua, our Mashiach will be here to meet us in the clouds for the Gathering? I am so ready for him to come, but who are we to guess GOD's plans? So I put your rapture date of Sivan 6th or the 7th on my jewish calendar on Shavout Yizkor, The Day of Pentecost, SO hopefully we will go forth to meet our yeshua in the clouds. Shalom
My reply June 9 or 10, 2000, is when I think the Rapture is most likely. That will be Sivan 6 and 7, 5760, Shavout. I did a search to see if I made a typo and had May 22, 2000 somewhere, but it didn't turn up anything. I would appreciate it if you would tell me where it is so I can change it. Pentecost was on May 22 in 1999. It also was when the new star, Nova Velorum, appeared in the reefed sails of the ship ARGO (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELLERS) thought to represent the Rapture.
I am not a prophet. I can only tell the way it looks to me.
Things happened to Israel "for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (aionon, ages) are come" (I Cor. 10:11, KJV). The Complete Jewish Bible has "These things happened to them as prefigurative historical events, and they were written down as a warning to us who are living in the acharit-hayamim."
Therefore, it seems very significant that there is a parallel between the length of "this generation" in Mt. 23:36 (first century) and "this generation" in Mt. 24:34's fig tree parable, which applies to our days.
Concerning Jerusalem, first century. From the time that Yeshua entered Jerusalem riding on the donkey and presenting himself as king (Sun., Nisan 9 in 30 AD) to the destruction of Jerusalem on Av 9 and 10 in 70 AD was 40 years plus 120 days (by inclusive reckoning).
Concerning Jerusalem, our days. From June 7, 1967 (Iyar 28, 5727), when Israel took the rest of Jerusalem, through Sept. 12, 2007 (when Tishri 1, 5768, begins at 6:00 PM) is also 40 years plus 120 days. It doesn't matter that 5768 is a leap year, because the days between Nisan 1 and Tishri 1 are always constant in all 6 year types.
It must be a leap year, because it is the day of destruction, and "It will take the house of Isra'el seven months to bury them, in order to cleanse the land" (Eze. 39:12, CJB) for the Lord's return on the following Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21, KJV), first day of the Regnal Year.
On Tishri 1, 5768, I believe the "enormous blazing mountain" (asteroid) of Rev. 8:8 (CJB) will be "hurled into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5). When there is woe on the seacoast, Jerusalem will have fiery coals scattered over the city.
Eze. 10:2 (CJB) says, "He spoke to the man clothed in linen: he said, 'Go in between the wheels (orbits) under the k'ruvim (terrestrial planets), fill both your hands with fiery coals from between the k'ruvim, and throw them on the city.'" These "fiery coals" sound like what Rev. 6:13 is talking about at the breaking of the 6th seal. In the CJB, it says, "The stars fell from heaven to earth just as a fig tree drops its figs when shaken by a strong wind."
There is another correlation. When Joseph was in Egypt, there were 7 good years and 7 bad years. In our days, the Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. That + 7 = Sept. 13, 2000, when the Final Status Agreement is supposed to be signed. That + 7 = Sept. 13, 2007, which is Tishri 1, 5768.
The Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. That date + 7 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. This seems like something the Lord arranged.
Just as the Israelites were given a covenant at Sinai on Pentecost, and the Essenes of the first century renewed their covenant every Pentecost, I think the Final Status Agreement will be "confirmed" (Dan. 9:27, KJV) by the Beast and False Prophet on Pentecost in 2001. The CJB has "He (the 'prince yet to come') will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]."
I expect the Seventieth Week of Daniel to start on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001. From Sivan 6, 5761 to Tishri 1, 5768 is, according to inclusive reckoning, the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14. Those are the days when the Jews can sacrifice plus the days when they can't because the "prince yet to come" desecrates the temple in the middle of the Tribulation.
Thus, the shortened Tribulation (Mt. 24:22) is 2300 days. Those 2300 days end on Tishri 1, 5768, just like the 40 years plus 120 days from June 7, 1967 to Tishri 1, 5768, do. The Lord seems to have tied it all up in a neat package. Surely the Rapture can't be far off. Shalom
Incoming Email Re: June and Pentecost
Did you notice that the month of June starts on Thursday and ends on Friday which is an EXACT duplicate of June 1967? Sincerely
My reply No. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Pentecost can be June 9, 10 or Sun., the 11th. I lean toward Sivan 7, Shabbat, June 10. Agape
Incoming Email I was wondering if you would read through this article down below. Do you agree with what is says? In your homepage you dont use the terminology as he does in this article but I wonder if you agree with it. It makes scripture more clear to me after reading his page. But since you dont say the exact same things as him Im not sure what to believe. Im just starting to read the bible myself, thats why I have little understanding of these things.
I was also wondering who you believe the "tares" are that Christ will throw out of his kingdom. Are they just false religions claiming to be christian like mormons? Or are they individuals who never truly accepted Christ? Thanks for your time.
My reply Hi: In Mt. 13:39, Jesus said, "The enemy that sowed them (the tares) is the devil." Diabolos works in many ways in many places. Any that have not accepted Christ as their Saviour can be under the devil's direct or indirect influence. However, in the parable, the tares look like the wheat, so I assume that they are false religions. They are to be bound in bundles to be burned, and there will be a world church organization tying them together.
Do I agree with Lyn Mise on soul salvation being different from spirit salvation? that spirit salvation is a free gift but soul salvation has to be worked for? that a Christian can lose his soul at the Judgment Seat of Christ? The answer is NO! NO! and NO!
Paul said, "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:1-3).
Eph. 2:8-10 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." After salvation, we are to walk in good works, but good works cannot save us.
Long ago, I would not study with the Jehovah's Witnesses that came to my door. I wanted to read the Bible all the way through for myself before I read anyone's books about the Bible. I was afraid that I could be led astray by reasonable sounding words that little by little could influence my thinking the wrong way. I have been so glad that I tackled Bible study that way. Knowing firsthand what the scriptures say is a protection against error creeping in insidiously, bit by bit. After I read the Bible for myself, I had a background to weigh everything else against, rather than chancing being "tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" (Eph. 4:14).
Please read the New Testament all the way through. It is the Last Will and Testament put in effect by the death of the testator. Give yourself a chance to recognize wrong doctrine when you see it.
From here on, I will quote some things Lyn Mise said and follow them up with my comments.
Lyn: All of the warnings in Scripture are warnings to spiritually regenerated people. This includes all of the warnings about dying or perishing. This is a difficult concept for Christians to understand due to the misinformation disseminated by Church.
***From Marilyn: It is very difficult because it does not agree with Scripture. Right away, he shows that he is at odds with the Church on this. I have his book, The Open Door, and I still disagree with him on this business of spirit salvation vs soul salvation.
***I do agree with him that salvation is by grace (Eph. 2:8-10) and rewards are according to works (Heb. 11:6), but to end up at the Judgment Seat of Christ and lose your soul is, in my mind, just not possible.
***Heb. 10:38,39 says, "Now THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL." Faith in Christ saves our soul--period. Our soul is not at risk at the Judgment Seat of Christ. When we accept Christ, it is our soul that is saved. From that moment on, our soul has eternal life. The physical body can die because of sin, but the soul lives on.
***Man is "spirit and soul and body" (I Thess. 5:23). "And if Christ be in you, the BODY is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8:10).
***I Cor. 3:11-15 says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire."
***Lyn Mise goes wrong right away by assuming that all Scripture is written to "regenerated people," therefore he applies things to Christians that do not apply to them. Scripture is written to all mankind. Even when speaking directly to believers, issues that concern unbelievers are discussed. True, some of the Bible will seem like so much nonsense to the unbeliever, but how to be saved is very clear. People have been saved for no other reason than reading the Bible. Once they accept Christ, he baptizes them with his Holy Spirit, which gives them the capability to understand Scripture.
***At the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven, rewards are handed out to all saints, and wrath is cast on the unbelievers left on Earth. Rev. 11:17,18 says of Christ, "thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned (it is Coronation Day in Heaven). And the nations were angry (the northern army of Eze. 38 is attacking Israel), and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
Our lives or souls will either come through the testing fire intact or they will perish or be destroyed.
***I Cor. 3:11-15 is talking about fire testing "man's WORK." It says, "but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED." It is not talking about our souls perishing.
It is important to understand that the Judgment Seat of Christ is not for the purpose of determining who enters into heaven. It is for the purpose of judging the lives or souls of Christians for the purpose of reward or chastisement.
Our bodies are the mediums through which we live our lives. The soul of a person is reflected in the actions of the body. Consequently, when we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, we are losing our souls, and our selves are transformed by the renewing of our minds. The mind is one aspect of the soul. Paul is explaining how we must devote our bodies to the service of the Lord in order to save our souls at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If we do this now in our Christian life, then our souls will not perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ. On the other hand, if we do not do this now, our souls will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ and we will experience the death of the soul.
***I don't think there is chastisement once we are in Heaven. We are chastised here because we will not be chastised in Heaven. There are rewards or lack of rewards for our works, yet the believer himself is saved so as by fire.
(Mat 10:28 ASV) And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
In this verse Jesus is addressing his disciples and he tells his disciples not to fear Satan and his emissaries who are able to destroy the body, but they should fear God, who is able to destroy both body and soul in the Lake of Fire. Thus, Jesus is warning spiritually regenerated people that they need to fear the destruction of their souls in the Lake of Fire.
***Regeneration means that the soul is saved from the second death in the Lake of Fire.
If the Christian obeys the sin nature in his life, he will suffer soul death. If he is an obedient Christian, he will experience righteousness of character, and his soul will not die.
***If a person is a Christian, their soul cannot die. They already have eternal life. Rom 6:23 says that "the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is a FREE GIFT. We do not work for a gift.
For if you live according to the old flesh nature within you, then your soul will die (i.e., perish), but if you through the power of the Holy Spirit put to death the deeds of the body (i.e., kill the soul or die to self), then your soul will live and not perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
***If we are believers and therefore have eternal life, our soul will never die.
Since eternal life and perishing pertain to the soul, it should not be difficult to understand that all Christians will either have eternal life at the Judgment Seat of Christ or they will perish. The truth is that many Christians will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
***I disagree. Faith in Christ saves the soul--eternally.
The person who sows to his flesh nature will lose his soul since he will be totally changed by Jesus Christ at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and he will be a totally different person. He will not receive glory, honor or immortality. He will not share in the inheritance of Jesus Christ, and he will not be honored in the kingdom. The person he was will cease to exist (i.e., perish), and he will not have immortality. He will still be in heaven, and he will still be made perfect, but he will lose all of his rewards. He will not receive a position in the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Since the individual did not attain to glory, honor, and immortality, he will not have eternal life in the kingdom.
***I don't think I believe any of that.
crucify the old flesh nature and allow Christ to live in them. If these Christians are able to do this, then the end result will be eternal life. If they are not able to do this, then they will perish at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
sin in the life of the Christian causes death of the soul.
***For a believer, sin causes loss of rewards, not death of the soul.
Christ in us is the hope of glory. This glory is the glory received with the laying hold on eternal life. All Christians are "in Christ," but not all Christians have "Christ in them."
***Rom. 8:9 says, "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Soul salvation depends upon the Christian's life after he is born again spiritually. Soul salvation is a gift from God through His Son Jesus Christ, but the Christian must lay hold onto it by how he lives his life.
***First, Lyn says soul salvation is a gift, then he says we must work for it. It is either one or the other. Faith in Christ gains us salvation, and it is a free gift. If it is a gift, it cannot be worked for. Good works after we are saved gain us rewards, but good works cannot get us salvation. If salvation could have come by works, it would not have been necessary for Christ to die in our stead. Agape
Incoming Email Re: The two resurrections
I still agree with your two raptures though my vision of them is still blurry. I have recently begun to believe that if all of the scriptures being cited by many apply to the rapture, the Lord seems to have weighted it heavier than any other event in the Bible. This seems unlikely since only a few (both of our current population and throughout history) are effected.
I wonder if a lot of this scripture does not also apply to something bigger that would apply to all Christians, both living and sleeping. I am talking about the mystery of the Kingdom of God.
For example, the parable of the 10 virgins, one frequently referred to as dealing with the rapture, begins in the NASB Matt. 25:1"THEN the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom." Note that it specifically refers to the Kingdom. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it says "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Christ is in all Christians, but I think you will agree that all Christians are not in Christ. If a Christian dies while he is not in Christ, then he may not be dead in Christ either. This would place a lukewarm dead Christian in the same spiritual position as a lukewarm live Christian when the Lord returns. It also provides us the same motivation to abide in Christ since we don't know what day He will return or what day we will die. Either way we will need to be ready to meet Him.
If the only the dead who are in Christ are raised at the first resurrection, are there any Christians at the 2nd one? It would appear that this may be the case, since when all are judged at the Great White Throne of God the books are opened. One of those books is the Book of life. If no one appears before that throne is a Christian, why is the Book of Life open? I have not fully researched this, however, it seems that being accounted worthy for the rapture if alive when the Lord returns is the same requirement to enter the Kingdom of God. In Rev. 20:6 it says "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years." Those who are raptured will have a part in the first resurrection because they will join with those raised in the air. All other Christians will still have eternal life, but will miss the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
Kind of motivates one to learn what it takes to be "in Christ" doesn't it? I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
My reply I use an old Mac. Can't open the file you sent.
Note: But that will change soon. Someone very nice has given me new computer, a PC. I thanked him, and he said to thank the Lord, which I certainly did. As soon as I get it hooked to the Internet, I will get my email on it. Then I should be able to open anything.
> Christ is in all Christians, but I think you will agree that all Christians
> are not in Christ.
I don't agree. The Laodiceans will be spewed out of his mouth at the first Rapture (Rev. 3:16), but I think all believers are in Christ now. If the Spirit of Christ is in both you and me, we are both part of the spiritual Body of Christ, because the Spirit of Christ is hooked both to us and to Christ.
> If the only the dead who are in Christ are raised at the first resurrection,
> are there any Christians at the 2nd one?
The first resurrection is "the resurrection of the just" (Lu. 14:14), all of them. There are ranks, but by the time of the Judgment Seat of Christ, all the Body of Christ is in Heaven. At that time, Rev. 11:18 says, "and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great." No Christians of this age are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium.
> why is the Book of Life open?
It is open to show the unbeliever that their name is not inscribed therein.
> Those who are raptured will have a part in the first resurrection because
> they will join with those raised in the air. All other Christians will
> still have eternal life, but will miss the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
All believers will be in Heaven as the second Rapture takes place. At that time, "shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mk. 13:27). This is the first day of the Millennium. They all have their duties in the government of the Lord. Those of the first Rapture are "kings and priests" (Rev. 5:10). Those of the second Rapture are "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them" (Rev. 7:15).
> Kind of motivates one to learn what it takes to be "in Christ" doesn't it?
> I would appreciate your thoughts on this.
Even the Laodiceans are in Christ. They have to be in him to be spewed out of his mouth.
All that are baptized (immersed, for filling) in the Spirit of Christ are parts of the Body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Eph. 2:13-22 says, "But now IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross...For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
All believers are in Christ. However not all believers are ready for the Rapture. Some are wise and others are foolish. The difference is the amount of oil (Holy Spirit) in our vessels (bodies). When we first believe, all "old sins" (II Pet. 1:9) are "purged" and wiped off the books. We get a new start. Any sins committed after that have to be confessed to God to bring them also under the blood of Christ. Sin erects a barrier between us and our holy God. The Holy Spirit in us is quenched to a certain degree. The way to get it back is to use I John 1:9, confess our sins so He can cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Then the Holy Spirit is like a fountain of living water welling up within us. We are filled with the Holy Spirit and ready for the Lord's coming. We are commanded to "Quench not the Spirit" (I Thess. 5:19) and to "be filled with the Spirit" (Eph. 5:18). Agape
I see your point. It just still seems like something is missing because it implies that a deceased Christian who would have been accounted worthy of the rapture had it occured during his lifetime is in the same position as a deceased Christian who would have been spewed out of Christ's mouth.
Perhaps this is handled by the ranks.
Do you believe that all Christians see or enter the Kingdom of God? In each parable and teaching about the Kingdom, Jesus is clear to explain that there is a cost. There is no cost for salvation. It is a free gift. But, what about "If you love your life you will lose it?"
My reply One of the attributes of the Lord is perfect justice. He is perfectly fair. The ones that belong in the "kings and priests" group (Rev. 5:10) will end up there no matter when they lived. Those that belong in the group that "serve him day and night in his temple" (Rev. 7:15) will end up there no matter when they lived. At the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, we will all know that we got exactly what we deserved.
I just read Luke 12:33,34 in the exeGesis Bible. It says, "Sell your holdings and give mercies; make yourselves pouches which antiquate not--an inexhaustible treasure in the heavens where neither thief approaches nor moth corrupts: for where your treasure is, there also your heart is." How about that "inexhaustible treasure"? In this same Bible, I Cor. 2:9 says, "Neither eye saw nor ear heard nor ascended to the human heart what Elohim prepared for them who love him." Isa. 64:4 says, "Even since eternity it was neither heard, nor perceived by the ear, nor seen by the eye, O Elohim, beside you, what he worked for him who awaits him."
> Do you believe that all Christians see or enter the Kingdom of God?
Yes. They are in the Kingdom of God.
> what about "If you love your life you will lose it?"
That is speaking of the time of the second Rapture, which is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:28-37 (exeGesis Bible) says, "Likewise also, so it became in the days of Lot; they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built: but the same day Lot came from Sedom (Sodom) fire and sulphur rained from the heavens and destroyed all. In like manner, it becomes in the day the Son of humanity (Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30) is unveiled (sixth seal, Rev. 6:12f): In that day, whoever is on the housetop and his vessels in the house, descend not to take it away: and likewise whoever is in the field, return not. Remember the woman of Lot. Whoever seeks to save his soul (i.e., stay alive on Earth), loses it; and whoever loses it, preserves it (in Heaven)." We can't hesitate, can't look back, can't refuse the Lord from Heaven. We have to go no matter what. Remember Lot's wife.
Heb. 12:22 (KJV) says, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven."
Continuing in Lu. 17, Jesus says, "I word to you, in that night, two are in one bed; the one is taken and the other forsaken: two are grinding together; the one is taken and the other forsaken: two are in the field; the one is taken, and the other forsaken. And they answer him, wording, Where, Adonay? And he says to them, Wherever the body (Body of Christ) is, the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints) gather together."
Here we have clues that the Raptures happen quickly and at one moment around the Earth. Part of the Earth has "night." The other part has day. All are caught up at the same time.
From your last email:
> > I still agree with your two raptures though my vision of them is still blurry.
The first Rapture is as the days of Noah (only water of the Spirit of Christ falls on the Earth), the second as the days of Lot (fire falls and destroys most left behind). The first group (Rev. 5:9) is caught up to Heaven before the first seal is broken the begins the Tribulation (Rev. 6). The second group (Rev. 7:9,14) is caught up to Heaven between the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8)--on the same day the fire falls. Rev. 6:17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come (i.e., 6:00 PM); and who shall be able to stand?" This is the day of the worldwide earthquake when every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20), so "who shall be able to stand?" has great meaning. Agape
Pro and Con 454 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: firstname.lastname@example.org
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110
© 1998, 1999, Marilyn J. Agee