Pro and Con 457

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Re: Two raptures
In Isaiah chapter 17. 6 and 24.13 there is a description of two sorts of olive harvest. The first, by inference is the olives which drop off the tree when they are ready to do so in a natural way, and the second is when the tree is shaken to ensure that the stubborn fruit does not get wasted.

Apparently , according to the book Harvest of the Olives, "In early autumn the ripened berries fall off the tree or are shaken by the wind onto the ground.There they lie, under the eye of a watchman appointed to guard them, until the governor makes a decree "go forth and gather". Then the owners of the trees are permitted to gather their own olives.

In November, as the winter rains begin, there comes the final, general, proclamation and all the countryfolk come to gather. Now the watchmen are removed and the olives are unguarded. The olive tree is then shaken by all and sundry to make the last berries fall. Finally, in worsening weather, the poorest come to glean whatever remains."

I have read various analyses of what this means, but I thought today that it could be a reference to two raptures, the first being a gathering of fruit which has dropped naturally without the intervention of a third party, and the second, which has only been harvested because of a certain amount of violence applied to the tree.

Notice also that at the second harvest the watchmen are removed.

See you soon.

My reply

Thanks, this is interesting.

Maybe Isa. 17:6 refers to the Pre-Wrath Rapture. It is when "Damascus is taken away from being a city" (v. 1), and "the day of grief and of desperate sorrow" (v. 12).

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is at the time of the vintage, Tishri 1, I think in 2007. After that Rapture, all Israel will be saved that day (Isa. 66:8). Maybe Isa. 24:13 refers to the surviving remnant that will live on into the Millennium. It is "as the gleaning grapes WHEN THE VINTAGE IS DONE."

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Arutz Sheva News Service, February 15, 2000 / Adar Aleph 9, 5760
Pope John Paul II and Yasser Arafat issued a joint condemnation today of any unilateral decision that would "change the unique character of Jerusalem," terming such a decision "legally and morally invalid." The two, who met in the Vatican today, called for an international status to be granted to Jerusalem

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It has been a while since we have talked. I pray all is well with you and your family. You have been in my prayers.

Could you explain why you added Ascension day as a possible rapture day? You casually mentioned it in pro/con 455 but did not give any scripture or details as to why you think that day could possibly be our flight day home. I am not complaining. I hope it is correct. The sooner we are out of here the better. You thoughts please? In Christ

My reply

So good to hear from you. I appreciate your prayers. We are well. Ed is still going to Cardiac Rehab to exercise, and is walking some better. The nerve that controls pulling up his left toe has mended. No more foot slap or getting tripped by his own foot. I am trying hard to learn to use my new PC. Haven't yet been able to upload a P and C I have ready to my Web site from it, but I'm working on that.

I really think next Pentecost, Sivan 7, 5760 (Sat., June 10, 2000) is the most likely day for the Rapture. It seems that the Lord figured out when important events would take place, then set the feasts on those days. It is a predetermined day, not an ever-imminent event. Prov. 7:19 says, "he will come at the day appointed."

However, I don't want to totally rule out Sivan 6, also kept as Pentecost, in case I am counting the 50 days wrong, or Ascension Day, because the Head of the Body of Christ ascended on the 40th day. We are part of the Body of Christ. Even so, a feast day seems more likely.

Dr. Tabor, who is translating for the Original Bible Project, wrote me and said, "I am sure you have looked at Jeremiah 5:24 before. There we have reference to our former and latter rains--and how they come in their proper TIME, but also we read: 'and he keeps for us Shavuot, appointed for the harvest.'" How about that? The Lord keeps Pentecost. It doesn't say he keeps Ascension Day.

We are wheat, and Pentecost is the wheat harvest festival. It is when "Also the firstborn of our sons" are brought into "the house of our God" (Neh. 10:36). That fits the Rapture too.

I think the Song of Solomon 2:10-13 tells us what season the Rapture will be in. The time slot when there are green figs and the firstripe grapes is a narrow one. It has to be at the end of May or early June. The only feast that fits this time slot is Pentecost, which particularly belongs to the Church.

Ascension Day is May 31 and Pentecost is Sivan 7, June 10. Both are close to summer, June 21, but Pentecost is closest and since it is a feast day, it gets my vote.

Mt. 24:33, in the Concordant Version, says, "you know that summer is near. Thus you, also, whenever you may be perceiving all these things, know that He is near--at the doors." Agape

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Matthew 24
v. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

v. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

My reply

In v. 31, no Rapture is indicated. I think it is the 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation, which is also the first day of the Millennium. These gathered are already in Heaven. They were caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture and are gathered as the Millennium begins for the assembly present at the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Mk. 13:27 tells us that not only are those already in Heaven gathered to the assembly, the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints takes place on that day. They are sure to participate in the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It says, "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN."

Mark 13:35 says, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning." What happened to the word "day" in Mt. 24:36? Neither Mt. 24:36 nor Mk. 13:35 mentions "year or month." Why? Agape

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Re: timing of rapture
I enjoyed your website but I disagree with alot of it. first of all the bible says a generation is 70 years if by strength 80 not 40 also I think the first sign was when the jews reentered their land in may 1948.I think the bible clearly speaks against date setting we cannot know the day or the hour.The lord could return any moment but I don't think we can say he has to return by june.I hope you are right i just don't think we can set a date, GOD bless you

My reply

> the bible says a generation is 70 years if by strength 80 not 40

Psa. 90:10 says, "The days of our YEARS are threescore years and ten." That is the lifespan, not the length of a generation. God showed us two times how long a generation is. (1) When Israel wandered 40 years in the wilderness while one generation died off. (2) When talking to the Pharisees in 30 AD, Jesus told them, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon THIS GENERATION" (Mt. 23:36). They did, in 70 AD, just 40 years later.

1948 was a great milestone. It fulfilled Zeph. 2:1,2: "GATHER yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; Before the decree bring forth, before the...fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD'S anger come upon you." It also fulfilled Eze. 38:8: "in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel."

> we cannot know the day or the hour.

In Mt. 24:36, "knoweth" is present tense. It was true in the day in which it was stated. It does not say that we will never know. Rev. 3:3 warns the "churches," "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What will happen if we do watch?

> The lord could return any moment

Prov. 7:19 says, he will come "at the day appointed." Agape

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Re: Thanks and question on PC 456
I have been following your posts for almost 2 years but have never contacted you because the internet has not been available till recently in my small town. I had to go to the library every few days to follow the different pros and cons.

I have been in pastoral or evangelistic ministry for over 30 years and have always had a love for prophecy, although I never taught on it much. I had always been pre trib in my understanding of eschatology but always had questions about how many of the scriptures fit into the overall picture of how the end of this age comes to fruition. After discovering your web site by accident, I bought all three of your books and printed out over 600 pages of the pro and con letters at a friends house to study. After reading and studying just about everything that you've written, many of the pieces of the end time puzzle have locked into place and I now have a framework of understanding that has given a new perspective and insight into all the scriptures that I read. Understanding the rapture of the Bride and the tribulation saints and what occurs during and subsequent to "that day", the day of the Lord, has been so important in understanding the many prophetic scriptures. There are still a few things that you have shared that "I've put on the back burner", but for the most part, I believe that you have tied things together better than anyone that I have learned from (and I have literally hundreds of prophecy books from every perspective in my library). I cannot thank you enough for publishing the things that the Lord has shown you through the years. I appreciate your humility and your attitude of Agape toward those that attack you and disagree with you.

I am presently in an evangelistic ministry trying to exhort the body of Christ to wake up and "Be the Bride". I am presently working on 2 books, "Be the Bride" and "Hidden Prophecies in the Six Days of Creation". Thanks again for your contribution that has opened up so much revelation in prophetic scripture.

As I have the time, there are several questions that I would like to ask of you in the upcoming weeks. But for now, I have a short one. In PC 456 you write the following paragraph,

> >"What happens at the temple on the first day of the Sacred and Regnal Year, Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008, the day Christ returns on the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar)? It will probably be as in Eze. 45:18-21. It says, "In the first month (Nisan), in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY. And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin-offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court. And so thou shalt do the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye reconcile the house. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten."

My question is in the first sentence you say that Nisan 1 is the anniversary of the Crucifixion which happened on passover. Yet in the quote from Ezekiel it says that "In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover". Is Passover on Nisan 1 or Nisan 14? I am a little bit confused? Thanks again for your insight. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

...(I hope) you will realize how very good it made me feel to read your kind words. Something like this makes me feel like all my hard work is worth while.

> Is Passover on Nisan 1 or Nisan 14? I am a little bit confused?

That is an easy one. I said, "Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008, the day Christ returns on the anniversary of the Crucifixion on OUR CALENDAR," not the Jewish one. Passover is Nisan 14 on the Jewish Calendar.

I think Jesus was crucified on Nisan 13, the preparation day, and died as the lambs were being killed in the Temple area. They were killed between the evenings, from 3:00 to 6:00 PM, so the meat could be roasted and be ready to be eaten as soon as possible after Nisan 14 arrived at 6:00 PM. The lamb had to be eaten before midnight on the 14th.

In 30 AD, I think Nisan 13 was April 6 on our calendar. It just so happens that in 2008, Nisan 1, 5768, falls on April 6. God is some mathematician.

As a sidebar, our son David was born on April 6. The only name we had picked out was Brian. I took one look at almost 10 pounds of baby, and Brian just didn't seem to fit him. He had a dark shock of pretty long and thick hair standing straight up on his head. The nurses called him my little football player. David flitted across my mind. I asked Ed, "How about David?" and David it was even though we had never even mentioned the name before. Strange things happen sometimes.

Because of that, I had wondered about out daughter's birthday. On Jan. 26, 1999, I finally figured out that when the day of Pentecost in 30 AD was fully come was Sivan 7. When I counted to see what date it was on our calendar, it was Carol's birthday, May 29. Feeling good at learning a bit more about the Bible, I drove Ed to the Dr. He had to get a prescription filled in Moreno Valley, CA. As we drove into the city, we drove into the end of the most gorgeous double rainbow we ever saw in our lives. The colors splashed down on the cars ahead of us in streaks in the light rain--and far far above us. That is a day to remember forever. I had no idea that could ever happen.

Your books sound so very interesting. We have got to get ready and stay ready--and wait patiently for the Bridegroom. Our patience will be rewarded.

Thanks so much for writing. Agape

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I just emailed you about a question from PC 456.  I've got one more quick one. In the same PC there is the following,

> > "Dan. 7:25-28 says, 'And he (the Satan possessed False Prophet, 7th head of the great red dragon, Rev. 12:3) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years).'"

If there is only 1040 days from the time the false prophet takes power to the time the tribulation saints are raptured at the beginning of the Day of the Lord, why does this scripture say that the saints will be given into his hand "until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years)?" Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

I don't know why there is so little study on the end of the Tribulation and the early part of the Millennium. So many seem to compress all the events of the following 7 1/2 months into one day, the end of the shortened Tribulation. They even place the Second Advent there because the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky that day.

There are two judgments, the Judgment Seat of Christ in Heaven and the Judgment of the Nations on Earth. They can't take place at the same time. The Feast of Trumpets in Heaven has the most agenda-rich day--ever--allotted to it. There is no time for the Second Advent or Judgment of the Nations that day. There is the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Here is the way I see it. In the first half of the seven years, I can detect no shortening. Moses and Elijah prophesy 1260 days (Rev. 11:3). The False Prophet, called "Death" (Rev. 6:8; Isa. 28:15), does not become Satan possessed (when "Hell followed with him") until the middle of the Tribulation. At that time, 1260 days before the full 7 years are up (Rev. 12:6), Satan is cast out of Heaven and enters into the False Prophet.

He immediately kills Moses and Elijah and "as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). He also places an idol at the temple. Those in Judea that know their Bibles will "flee into the mountains" (Mt. 24:15,16). According to Rev. 12:6,14 and Dan. 12:7, another 1260 days of the Seventieth Week of Daniel 9:27 is left.

Messianic Jews that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Rev. 12:17) will flee "into the wilderness, where she (Israel) has a place prepared of God (Petra), that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 12:6). Therefore, at Mid-Trib, the saints still have 1260 days to be "nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3 1/2 years) "FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT" (REV. 12:14). Whether the fleeing saints are protected from Satan on Earth or after the Pre-Wrath Rapture in Heaven, they will be protected from the face of Satan.

From Mid Trib, SATAN still has dominion for 1260 days. Dan. 7:25,26 says, "And he (the Satan possessed Falso Prophet) shall speak great words (speaking "as a dragon," Rev. 13:11) against the most High (Christ), and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time (3 1/2 years). But the judgment shall sit (i.e., at the end of the full 2520-day Tribulation), and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end" (of Armageddon).

Satan is called "the beast that was (in Judas Iscariot), and is not (at the time of the Rapture, is not in a man), even he is THE EIGHTH (i.e., the tail of the red dragon), and is of the seven (controls the leaders of 7 world empires and possesses the 7th, the False Prophet), and goeth into perdition" (Rev. 17:11). There are two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet.

At Mid-Trib, there are 1260 days allotted to Satan's dominion and to the saints. However, some different events do have different terminal dates. Dan. 12:11,12 tells of the 1290 days and of the 1335 days, when Daniel again stands in his own lot in Israel.

In Mt. 24:20-22, Jesus tells those fleeing Judea Mid-Trib, "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world (kosmos, this order of things) to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS SHOULD BE SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but FOR THE ELECT'S SAKE THOSE DAYS SHALL BE SHORTENED." We can tell from Dan. 8:14 that the shortened Tribulation ends on the 2300th day, 1040 days from Mid-Trib.

When Gog's army attacks Israel on the Feast of Trumpets, and Israel blows the alarm on the silver trumpets (Nu. 10:2-4), GOD has had enough. His fury comes up in his face. The time is then cut short. His people, with their backs to the wall and the whole world against them, finally are repenting and crying out for him to help them. And he will. Eze. 38:18 says, "it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face." Right then, the time is cut short. The Lord will fight for Israel. Satan still has dominion for 220 days, but very few men have any time left to them.

At the breaking of the 6th seal, the Sign of the Son of Man is seen in the sky (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:12f). The believers, even those "that fear thy name" (Rev. 11:18), are caught up to Heaven. The Sword of the Lord (the binary asteroid of Rev. 8:8,10) impacts Earth. All but one sixth of Gog's army is destroyed. The dead lay around the world. Eze. 39:2-4 says, "I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: And...Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee."

In effect, it is the attack on Israel that brings on the shortening of the days, but our omniscient God knows just when the attack will take place, on the 2300th day of the Tribulation.

Dan. 8:13,14 says, "Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then (after that) shall the SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED."

Eze. 45:18 says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the first month, in the first day of the month (Nisan 1), thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish, and CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY." There are 7 months, during which Israel buries the dead (Eze. 39:12), between the catastrophe on the Feast of Trumpets and the following Nisan 1. Therefore it is a Jewish leap year that has the 13th month added. 5768 (2007/08) is a leap year.

They bury the dead to cleanse the land for Christ's return as the latter rain on the following Nisan 1 (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,21), the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year, Regnal because Christ is King of kings, Sacred because he is Lord of lords.

The "then" in Dan. 8:14's "then shall the SANCTUARY BE CLEANSED" covers a 7-month space of time that is only explained in Eze. 39:12. The clues are "here a little, and there a little: that they (unbelievers) might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken" (Isa. 28:13). The "wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand" (Dan. 12:10).

Right after the Second Advent on Nisan 1 (which just happens to be Apr. 6, in both 2000 and 2008), the sanctuary will be cleansed. Then on Nisan 14, the passover will be kept (Eze. 45:21). The full 2520 days of the Seventieth Week of Daniel, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, are up the next day, on Nisan 15, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I think the Judgement of the Nations will take place on Nisan 16, the Feast of Firstfruits. Dominion will be taken from Satan on the anniversary of the Resurrection, the day Christ proved he had the right to dominion.

Eze. 21:25-27 says, "And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel (the False Prophet), whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end (on the Day of God's Wrath), Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and TAKE OFF THE CROWN (the False Prophet is deposed on Tishri 1, the first day of the Millennium): this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low (Christ is crowned in Heaven that day), and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it (the False Prophet's reign): and it shall be no more, until he (Christ) come whose right it is (the next Nisan 1); and I will (in 7 months) give it (the Kingdom on Earth) him."

The rest of the chapter is interesting. Eze. 21:28f says, "Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning the Ammonites, and concerning their reproach; even say thou, THE SWORD, THE SWORD (of the Lord) is drawn: for the SLAUGHTER it is furbished, to consume because of the glittering...whiles they divine a lie unto thee, to bring thee upon the necks of them that are slain, of THE WICKED, whose day is come, when their iniquity shall have an end (the 2300th day of the Tribulation). Shall I cause it to return into his sheath? I will judge thee (the Judgment Seat of Christ, Tishri 1) in the place where thou was created (the "aster" of Rev. 8:10 impacts and destroys Babylon, in the land of thy nativity (the Garden of Eden was in that general area). And I will pour out mine indignation upon thee, I will blow against thee in THE FIRE OF MY WRATH."

Because the saints are "delivered...from the WRATH to come" (I Thess. 1:10), they are caught up to Heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. The one follows the other rapidly. That is where the SHORTENING of the Tribulation takes place. In Rev. 6:12, the 6th seal breaks. The small ROCKS are already falling "as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind" (Rev. 6:13). In v. 17, "THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH is come." In Rev. 7:14, the Tribulation saints are in Heaven. In Rev. 8, the 7th seal is broken, and the large asteroids and other trumpet judgments shower disaster on unbelievers left on Earth.

The asteroids of Rev. 8:8,10 impact Earth at noon on the Feast of Trumpets. One piece hits the Mediterranean. The other destroys Babylon. Zeph. 2:4,5 says, "Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast" (Zeph. 2:4, see also Eze. 25:16, Job 20.23, Amos 8:9). Agape

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