Pro and Con 463

Uploaded 3-10-00

Note: Please pray for my grandson, Brian Agee, Brandi's younger brother. He is in the hospital.

Warning! there is a virus called PRETTY PARKS making the rounds. I first got a message from my email friend in S. Africa with an attachment. The attachment had .exe on it. I think it was PrettyParks.exe. I am afraid to open attachments, so did not try, and sent her an email explaining that I was afraid of getting a virus. I threw her email in the trash and emptied it. Good thing. Much to her consternation, all she had done when she received the virus was TRY to open it, which was NOT successful, BUT it sent email to every address in her Address Book. Today, I received an email that I think pretended to be from her. I was alerted when it took 9 minutes to come in. That sounded like way too large a file to be an email. That was more like downloading a software program. Sure enough, it included an attachment named PrettyParks Cleaner.exe, and said this was a bad virus, it would send email to everyone in your address book. It also said it was from a trusted source (a thing I have seen before on virus warnings). I threw it away and emptied the trash. I think it was from the hacker who wrote the virus, another trick he/she probably thought to play on a few more people. Please send me no attachments. I won't open them. Everything I need to see can be copied and pasted into the email document. I can visit URLs myself for anything too long for email, or use snail mail.

Incoming Email

Re: Heaven Found
P&C 455 struck a dischord with me. I feel some distress over the criticisms of your research on Heaven Found. I am writing to bring strength and fellow believer support to you on this. I have learned personally that the academic and intellectual approach to the Gospel is meaningless. I went to University for  ten years, studied some of the most intense courses any person could, and could not discern anything whatsoever in the Word. When I sat down and accepted Christ, and prayed for discernment, the Holy Spirit gave me more insight and blessing than I could ever imagine. A bunch of scientific mumbo jumbo about surface temperatures and atmospheres reminds me of the scientific world and it's lies about evolution, big bangs, and cavemen bones "dated" tens of thousands of years old. We have to completely abandon any of our puny knowledge of mans intuitions. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truth. Adam was a lump of dirt from the ground, that had life created in the "clay" by the Holy Spirit. I come from a rigorous scientific background, and NEVER find any use for any of that knowledge. That is what kept me in spiritual darkness for the first fourty years and 120 days of my life. I am actually offended by somebody suggesting that Saturn which is where our Heavenly Father's Heaven most high is (I know you are right, the Holy Spirit has shown me), is some kind of Hades or Sheol. Only somebody who is thinking in the flesh would try to assume that our filthy dirt vessels of clay would enter the Kingdom of Heaven. There is no way we can correlate our eternal bodies of the first ressurection with our mortal clay vessels! Consider Psalm 50:21 "you thought that surely I would be like yourself" (God reminds us of our sinful nature, God is not like us, God is Holy and Righteous). Consider Isaiah 55:8 "for My thoughts are not your thoughts; nor are your ways My ways, says Jehovah". (God reminds us our flesh body can not rationalize anything without the Holy Spirit revealing). So instead of trying to think as Heaven as some kind of "park with trees", we must realize that we will enter an entirely better and perfect eternal existence, and must reject all interpretations of what our flesh bodies require. Agape

PS - I find it strange that the two web sites mentioned by your critic could not be opened. Did you try? Maybe I made an error typing them.

My reply

Thanks. I had no luck on the 1st URL. Can't remember on the 2nd. A lot has run through my head since. Agape

Incoming Email

On your last Pro-Con you answered a question concerning eternal security and assurance with the scripture found in Hebrews 6:4-6.

This bothered me some as I have had struggles with this subject and have finally come to the conclusion that belief in the Gospel (the crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ according to the scriptures) is all that is required for eternal salvation. Works are not involved in any way. He has paid the price and has accomplished the Fathers will. "Paid in full" was spoken on the cross and that is that! I think that you feel about the same way. However, in the past, when I received a similar response from a friend who I thought would know, The Hebrews scripture mentioned sent me into a spiral of doubt as to my salvation. This lasted for ten years. It should be explained that the scripture in question was directed toward the Jews who were being tempted to return to the blood sacrifices of the Old Testament. This would be a direct insult to the work Christ did on the cross. I am not a biblical scholar but this subject of eternal security and assurance is very near and dear to my heart and I would not want anyone to go through what I did. There are many scriptures that would explain this and as I said before, I believe that you are similar in your beliefs. Could you help by giving a little more comprehensive explanation. Love ya.

My reply

> belief in...crucifixion, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ...is all that is
> required for eternal salvation. Works are not involved... He has paid the price and has
> accomplished the Fathers will. "Paid in full" was spoken on the cross and that is that!

Well said. That is true. We are talking about salvation here, not rewards earned after salvation.

Jn. 6:37-40 says, "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE: and I will raise him up at the last day." Some will be raised up at the first trump (I Thess. 4:13-18), on the first day, and the rest will be raised up at the last trump (I Cor. 15:51,52), on the last day, each in his own order, tagmati, rank (I Cor. 15:23). By the last trump, all believers are in Heaven.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:8-10).

> the scripture...was directed toward the Jews who were being tempted to return to the blood
> sacrifices of the Old Testament. This would be a direct insult to the work Christ did...
About Heb. 6:4-6. Scofield's introduction to Hebrews is good. It says, "Theme. The doctrinal passages reveal the purpose of the book. It was written with a twofold intent: (1) To confirm Jewish Christians by showing that Judaism had come to an end through the fulfilment by Christ of the whole purpose of the law; and (2) the hortatory passages show that the writer had in view the danger ever present to Jewish professed believers of either lapsing back into Judaism, or of pausing short of true faith in Jesus Christ. It is clear from the Acts that even the strongest of the believers in Palestine were held to a strange mingling of Judaism and Christianity (e.g. Acts 21:18-24), and that snare would be especially apt to entangle professed Christians amongst the Jews of the dispersion.

"The key-word is 'better.' Hebrews is a series of contrasts between the good things of Judaism and the better things of Christ....Christian profession is before the writer; hence exhortations necessary to warn and alarm a mere professor."

Verse 9 shows that the author, probably Paul, is not applying v. 4-6 to those he is writing to. It says, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, THOUGH WE THUS SPEAK." But he does add verses 11 and 12: "And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

A good lesson we can apply to our situation right now is that we must be certain of our salvation, be totally committed to Christ 100%, and hold on to our faith to the end, whenever that might be. Have unswerving faith and patience, and we will inherit the promises.

The majority of the generation given the law at Sinai failed. Two of the older generation made it into the promised land on Earth along with the children. The majority of the generation given the gospel of Christ in 30 AD failed. But more have the right to their promised land (Heaven) than the former generation had to the land of Israel. In our days, the majority of the generation given the promise of the Pre-Trib Rapture will fail, but I feel certain that even more will have the right to ascend when the first trump of God sounds. The remainder of the saved will ascend at the last trump.

In the second census, none of those in the first census after leaving Egypt were counted except Caleb and Joshua. The rest had died off. They did not have faith in God that he was able to do what he said he would do. At the last trump, when all are accounted for, we will find that none belonging to Christ have been lost. He has accomplished that which he came to do. His is the better way. We must have faith that he is able to do what he said he would do. Keep the faith. Agape

Incoming Email

I sort of understand your response but have questions that no one I have asked is able to answer logically.

I have been through most of the different ways to be "saved". From going down front in a Baptist church at nine to trying to work for my salvation. I have recently come to the realization that it is by grace we are save through faith by no act of our own. I believe this but I have to constantly work at pushing down the various questions that rise when I am talking to Charismatics, 7th day adventists, et al. These people have some vary good questions about certain scriptures that would seem to say that it is indeed possible to loose your salvation.

This is quite a paradox to me and I would like to be able to stand in the storm and not be moved on this issue. Usually, when this situation rears its head I just ignore the questions and work to put it out of my mind. But the scientist/explorer within myself has problems letting anything like this go unnoticed for long.

What do we do with scriptures that appear to say that we can loose our salvation. Even in the 7 letters to the churches it is said that our name can be removed from the book of life. To be removed it had to of been there at one time. I tend to go along with the idea that our salvation has nothing to do with anything we have or might do but I need to know where to put all the other scriptures that state otherwise. Thanks for your help.

My reply

In the beginning, the best wasy I know to be sure one is saved is to pray and say that you believe in Christ and ask him to be your own personal Saviour. Count that your spiritual birthday and trust God to honor his promises.

At that point, Jesus baptises us with his Holy Spirit. We are born into God's family and cannot get unborn from God's family any more than we can get unborn from our earthly family. Whether we live or die, the real person, soul and spirit, has eternal life from that point on. The physical body can die because of sin, but not the soul and spirit. In due time, we will get resurrection bodies, but even before that, we are still alive and thinking.

In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, John saw Christ in Heaven surrounded by the seven candlesticks (1:13), which "are the seven churches" (1:20). In Christ's right hand are seven stars, which are the star performers of the seven churches. He has just caught them up at the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In Rev. 2:5, the Rapture is "at hand" (1:3; 22:10), Jesus says something that is very important when the Rapture is at hand. We must REPENT (i.e., confess our sins as per I John 1:9), OR ELSE. He puts it bluntly. "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works, OR ELSE I will come unto the quickly (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and will REMOVE THY CANDLESTICK OUT OF HIS PLACE (Heaven), except thou REPENT."

If we are wearing white robes (i.e., all sins brought under the blood of Christ), at the Rapture, we will be as wise virgins with enough oil of the Holy Spirit. We will be around Christ in Heaven, as seen in the Preview in 1:13. If we do not repent, he will leave us behind as the foolish virgins are in Mt. 25:10.

That doesn't mean that we can lose our salvation. It would just mean that we would have to be caught up to Heaven at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. We would be counted as Laodiceans, who are spewed out of his mouth (3:16) at the Pre-Trib Rapture because they are not wearing white robes. They will be outside a closed door instead of entering it when it was open. By the Pre-Wrath Rapture, these "have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). The Laodiceans are warned. Jesus says, "as many as I love, I REBUKE AND CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and REPENT." If we are smart, we will repent now and not have to repent under more pressure. We need to be ready. We can learn the easy way, or we can learn the hard way, but learn we will.

In Rev. 3:11, Jesus tells the Philadelphians, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast." Now what do the Philadelphians have? purity, they are not told to repent, they already have, and brotherly love. The first church group had left their first love. The 6th group had repented and regained love. They have unfeigned love of the brethren because they have enough oil of the Holy Spirit. One of God's attributes is love, and if we have God in us, we have his love in us.

Rev. 3:11 says to hold fast "that no man take thy crown." HOLD FAST is important now also. We trusted Jesus for salvation, and we should trust him to not let us go if we HOLD FAST to our profession of faith in Christ. So we need to be sure we are wearing white robes, and then hold fast until Jesus comes for us--repent and hold fast. For our faithfulness, we will be awarded that crown after the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In Rev. 3:5, it says, "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." Before we jump to the conclusion that this means that our names could be blotted out, let's read more. It is written to Sardis (those escaping, i.e., in the Reformation), but also to "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (3:6). This covers all believers.

Rev. 3:1-5 says, "These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and THE SEVEN STARS." In the Preview, Jesus had the star performers in his right hand right after the Rapture. "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. BE WATCHFUL, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God." The Lutherans have already taken steps to rejoin the Catholics. What is ready to die? that salvation is by faith, not works, the very thing the Reformtion was all about.

Continuing, Jesus said, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If there THOU SHALT NOT WATCH, I will come on thee as a thief (at the second Rapture, near Armageddon, Rev. 16:15,16), and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have NOT DEFILED THEIR GARMENTS; AND THEY SHALL WALK WITH ME IN WHITE: FOR THEY ARE WORTHY."

That's interesting, for Lu. 21:34-36 warns us to not let "that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY always, that YE MAY BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Comparing these passages shows us that to be accounted worthy to escape, we should walk with Him in white.

Back to Rev. 3:5: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in WHITE RAIMENT; and I will NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

What was the Reformation all about? was salvation to be earned by faith or by works. If we try to earn it by works, we could fail, but if it is by faith in Christ only, Jesus assures us that he WILL NOT blot out our name from the book of life. Instead, he will stand up for us and confess our name before his Father.

> Even in the 7 letters to the churches it is said that our name
> can be removed from the book of life.

It doesn't really say that. It says, "I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE." We can take it as an assurance that he won't. Even if it could happen as you said, our name would have to be there by the time of the second Rapture. At that time, rewards are given in Heaven to "thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that FEAR THY NAME, SMALL AND GREAT" (Rev. 11:16). Even if what one built upon Christ, the foundation, was only wood, hay and stubble, "HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE" (I Cor. 3:15).

The way I see it, we can lose rewards, we can be left behind at the first Rapture, but we cannot lose our salvation. If we have eternal life, we have it--forever.

God offers to the lost, salvation, to the saved, rewards. The scriptures can be distinguished because salvation is a free gift, and rewards are earned by works. Agape

Incoming Email

I was just looking at this, and by this persons account the ministry of Elijah and Moses have been here for several years. In this report they say that there is water flowing from the Temple mount. I have not heard anything about this and I have not heard anything about the 2 witnessess being already here. If you have time could you check this out and let me know what you find out. It seems strange that they are the only ones that I have seen that are talking about it. Thank you

http://www.gvtc.com/~jsearcy/Elijmin.htm
Name: The Ministry of Elijah in Jerusalem NOW!

My reply

I don't believe much of what Jim Searcy, who wrote Great Joy in Great Tribulation, has to say about endtime prophecy. He and I exchanged email in early Pro and Cons. He thinks the Tribulation started Sept. 13, 1993. Sept. 13, 1993 + 7 = Sept. 13, 2000. When was the idol put at the temple? When did the False Prophet sit in the temple, and require everyone to take the mark of the beast to be able to buy or sell? When did he kill Moses and Elijah? When were they resurrected? When did they ascend to Heaven as their enemies beheld them?

The Tribulation is shortened 220 days (2520 (Dan. 9:27) - 2300 (Dan. 8:14) = 220). That is 7.33 months. It takes Israel 7 of these months to bury the dead (Eze. 39:12) after the northern army attacks Israel. Back up 7 months from September, 2000, and we would already be past the Day of God's Wrath. Did anyone hear about the two asteroid impacts? Israel being attacked? Both Raptures would be past history. There would be so few men left on Earth that a child could write the number. It makes no sense at all to me.

Neither do the Preterists, who think all these things happened in 70 AD. All I know is that their brains don't work like mine. I can clearly see that there are a lot of things that just have not happened yet.

The water at the temple turned out to be pumped out of a cistern on the temple mount to water the plants.

Incoming Email

So we are less than 100 days to Rapture?

28 days or less in March 2000;
30 days in April 2000;
31 days in May 2000;
11 days or less in June 2000.

As always, I am ready.

I pray our Lord to give me the strength to spread His word among the people I meet everyday. If we are taken in 100 days, great. If not, we continue to spread His word.

Is there any new signs to watch in the last 100 days? God bless you both!

My reply

Jesus didn't command us to watch for nothing. Stay alert. Noah knew 7 days ahead of time when it would begin to rain. We have had signs already. A notable one was the new star, Nova Velorum, in the sails of the ship Argo (company of travelers) on May 22, 1999. That was SIVAN 7, PENTECOST--an eye opener.

Another sign that supposedly has not seen in 6000 years is coming up May 5, a lineup of 5 major planets, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Uranus, and Saturn, plus the Sun and Moon. Who knows what else God has planned.

I agree, "If not, we continue to spread His word." It seems to me that we are running out of time. Agape

Incoming Email

What makes you so sure that the rapture will happen on Pentecost Sunday, this year.I don't understand why on Pentecost Sunday.It seems to me it would happen most likely on the feast of trumpets if it were to happen on a particular day. Being that the angels will blow trumpets at the Lord return. In the fall of 2000.Rev.Benny Hinn and Jimmy Swaggart teach that the Antichrist is coming out of Syria. Rev Jack Van Impe thinks he is coming out of the European common market countries, most likely Spain.Whats your belief. Also can you foresee the rapture happening in the year 2001? Has the gospel been preached to the whole world yet in order to fulfill the prerequisite for his coming? They say now you can hear the Gospel by short-wave radio and satellite television DSS dishes onTBN anywhere on the globe, at least according to the Trinity Broadcasting Network. What do you think?

My reply

I can't say for sure. I am not a prophet. However, it seems to me that we are running out of time. Forty years plus 120 days from Iyar 28 (June 7) in 1967, when Israel took the rest of Jerusalem and fulfilled the fig tree parable, is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). This matches the time of the generation from when Jesus came to Bethany on Nisan 8, the day before Palm Sunday, in 30 AD to the destruction of Jerusalem on Av 10 in 70 AD. It too was 40 years plus 120 days.

The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. I think that began the 7 good years, as when Joseph was in Egypt. Sept. 13, 1993 + 7 = Sept. 13, 2000, when the Final Status Peace Agreement is to be signed. Add the 7 bad years, and you get Sept. 13, 2007, which is Tishri 1, 5768, the Day of God's Wrath.

The Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 good yrs + 7 bad yrs = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. That is too good to be by accident.

The Pre-Trib Rapture has to take place before the 7 bad years begin. I think it will take place on Pentecost.

I do think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will be on the Feast of Trumpets, Sept. 13, 2007, but not the Pre-Trib Rapture. We are wheat. Remember the parable of the wheat and tares in Mt. 13? Pentecost is the wheat harvest festival. As a type, the Spirit of Christ returned to the Church on Pentecost in 30 AD.

On Pentecost, Lev. 23:17 says, "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves...baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD" (Lev. 23:17). The baking kills the leaven and leaves the loaf pure, a good type of the Bride of Christ who is wearing white garments, which are the righteousnesses of saints.

Neh. 10:35,36 says of Pentecost, "And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the LORD: ALSO THE FIRSTBORN OF OUR SONS."

James 1:18 says that we are "a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." Don't you think that fits Pentecost for our harvest?

Song of Solomon 2:10-14 seems to be talking about the Rapture of the Bride of Christ. It says, "Rise up, my love my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle (lit., turtledove) is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

Six of the seven feasts are in Nisan or Tishri. Both are rainy months. The former rain starts Tishri 1, and the latter rain starts Nisan 1. Christ came on Tishri 1 the first time and will return on Nisan 1 (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,21). In my mind, the rain eliminates the six feasts.

There must be green figs and firstripe grapes. That can only be late May or early June. Only Pentecost fits that narrow time slot.

> Being that the angels will blow trumpets at the Lord return.

How do you know that? The only thing I can think of is that the priests are to blow the shofar on the beginning of their months. But men are not angels. Angels blow the 7 trumpets of judgment, but that takes place 7 months before the Second Advent (Eze. 39:12). And are you talking about the Second Advent instead of the Rapture? At the Rapture, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD" (THE TRUMP OF GOD, not of angels.).

> Antichrist is coming out of Syria

There is a good chance this is the way it will be.

> can you foresee the rapture happening in the year 2001?

It is possible, but does not seem as likely as this upcoming Pentecost. Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in 1:3 and 22:10. Jesus signs of with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture. In Rev. 17:12, at the time of the Rapture, the 10 kings have not yet received their kingdoms. Yet as the Tribulation starts in Rev. 13:1, all 10 are crowned. There is a gap between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. I expect the Tribulation to start on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001. If that date is correct (and it is 2300 days from then until the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, see Dan. 8:14), then Pentecost, 2000, is the last Pentecost that would still leave a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

> Has the gospel been preached to the whole world yet in order to
> fulfill the prerequisite for his coming?

Where is it a prerequisite for his coming at the Rapture? The Second Advent is about 7 years after the Rapture. Mk. 16:15,16 says, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Does it mention his coming at all?

Be ready, all sins brought under the blood of Christ (see I John 1:9) just in case. Agape

   Pro and con 464   Or Return  Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net

send me e-mail now.

8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 3-13-00