Pro and Con 466

Uploaded 3-17-00

Note: Mike Curtiss needs prayer. He has multiple herniated discs in his back.

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***From Marilyn:...You have done some interesting "pondering." It is food for thought all right.

In pondering some verses from the Tanakh (OT), the following came to me: While under the anointing of the Holy Spirit, King David wrote: Psalms 23:5, " Thou (Yeshua - Jesus) preparest a table (This is the Table at the Wedding Feast in Revelation which we go to at the Rapture) before me in the presence of mine enemies (The rapture happens, hasatan sees it, then he & his angels are cast out of heaven {The reference here is to Revelation Chapter 12}; comes to earth with great wrath as he now has seen Jesus with His bride): thou anointest my head (The L-rd clothes His bride in righteousness) with oil; my cup runneth over (When raptured we are filled with joy: Acts 13:52, "And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.")...and I shall dwell in the house of the L-rd forever". Dwelling with the L-rd forever ties into 1 Thessalonians 4:17-18, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the L-rd in the air: and so shall we ever be with the L-rd."

Proverbs 11:4, "Riches (Refer to: Revelation 18:17, "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,") profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth (via the rapture) from death."

Proverbs 25:7, "For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither (It is far better to be in the rapture - "come up hither"); than that thou shouldest be put lower (remain during the great tribulation) in the presence of the prince (Yeshua) whom thine eyes have seen."

Isaiah 10:3, "And what will ye do in the day of visitation (the rapture), and in the desolation which shall come from far (the rapture first followed by the 7 yrs of tribulation)? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?".

***I think this is the day of God's wrath on the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14). First, comes the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14-17), then the Pre-Wrath Rapture, then what is probably a binary asteroid comes "from far," from the heavens, impacts Earth and destroys civilization as we know it. This asteroid is the Sword of the Lord. It is the flaming sword that turns every way that was set to the east of the Garden of Eden in Gen. 3:24.

Psalms 12:7, "Thou shalt keep them (the good servants, the wheat and 5 wise bridesmaids), O L-RD, thou shalt preserve them (via the rapture) from this generation ("This generation", referred to by Yeshua as the wicked one of the latter years that live to see the signs of His appearing) for ever."

The following is just an observation as to where we may on G-d's prophtime clock: September 10, 1999 was Rosh HaShannah, The Hebrew Feast of Trumpets, the anniversary of the creation of the world. The extraordinary thing is that it coincides with the regular weekly shabbat. Scripturally & technically this could be viewed as perplexing; for the CREATION-G-d's work-- to coincide with Shabbat (The day G-d rested from His labors). I believe the significance is that this occurance initiates the Jubilee year, for us it could mean the year of the rapture of believers. Leviticus 25:9, "Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement (Yom Kippur) shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land."

***According to the Talmudic Jewish Calendar, 5761 (2000/2001) is a Sabbatic Year; so is 5768 (2007/2008). I wonder if the actual Jubilee Year will be announced Tishri 10, 5768 (Sept. 22, 2007) and start the following Nisan 1 (Apr. 6, 2008), the day the King of kings and Lord of lords returns on the first day of the Regnal Year and Sacred Year.

And Ezekiel 40:1, "In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the L-RD was upon me, and brought me thither.". When we regard Genesis 49:10, "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.", we know from history that the sceptre departed from Judah circa 7 AD. The sceptre representing self-governing authority from a religious perspective; in this case the ability to inflict capital punishment.

***I thought the right to inflict capital punishment was taken away from them in 30 AD, 40 years before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I got this from "The Life of our Lord upon Earth," by Samuel J. Andrews, p. 37, 38.

Since the sceptre departed, Jesus would not be killed via stoning as per the Mosaic Law, but through crucifiction as foretold by Psalm 22:16, Isiah 53:5, 8-12, Zech 12:10. The sceptre seems to have returned to Israel on Jan 23, 1950 upon the first official meeting of the Knesset. 1950 + 50 (jubilee) = 2000.

***That date may turn out to be more important than we yet know. The huge mind-boggling Gamma Ray Burster was seen on Jan. 23, 1999. Jan. 23, 1950 + 49 = Jan. 23, 1999. Do you suppose the 50 days to Pentecost could prefigure 50 years to next Pentecost? We don't have long to wait to find out.

I'd also like to offer a thought regarding you correlation of the series of 400 years. In considering the year 1517 as the starting point, if we were to consider when the construction of the Temple might be:

487 years elapsed from 1 Kings 6:1, "And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the L-RD." To 1 Kings 6:37-38, "In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the L-RD laid, in the month Zif: And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.".

487 years shall have elapsed from 1517 AD when the Ottoman Turks cast the Jews out of the Holy Land & Jerusalem to circa 2004 AD when The third Temple likely begins operation.

***They could begin sacrificing if the altar was present, but what about the mention of the temple in Rev. 11:1? The two witnesses have to prophesy during the first half of the Tribulation, be killed (probably because they will not worship the image (Rev. 13:15), resurrected and ascend to Heaven in the middle of the Tribulation. I have wondered if the False Prophet will sit in the temple at its dedication. Could the temple compound be partially built at the beginning of the Tribulation and finished Mid-Trib?

Shortly thereafter the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation. Daniel 11:31, "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate." And Daniel 12:11, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

***I think the extra 30 days are mourning for the "goats" that are done away with at the Judgment of the Nations. Mt. 25:41 says, "Then shall he say also unto them (the goats) on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

And Matthew 24:15, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)". I think here the important word is Operation, when the Temple goes into operation. For if we take 1517 and add 480 we would get circa 1997. But we know that the Temple did not commence at that time. Given modern heavy equipment & construction techniques, constructors estimate the third Temple could be built in 12-15 months (as the Temple implements, bowls, menorah etc are already prepared). The rest of your analysis would remain in tact. Thank you for letting me offer some thoughts. Y'varechecha Ad-nai v'yishim'rechecha, Ya'ayr Ad-nai panav alecha v'chunecha, Yisa Ad-nai panav alecha, v'yasaym l'cha shalom. The L-rd bless you and keep you, The L-rd make His Face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you. The L-rd lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.

***Shalom and agape

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I am sharing with some of my friends the good things I have learned from you. Which edition (and page # if possible) of Unger's Bible Handbook contains the reference to the former rain being Tishri 1 and the latter rain Nisan 1? I have a 1967 edition and have been unable to find it. You mentioned the page # in one of your P&C's back in the summer, but finding that reference would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. I think you will be able to put your finger on the very page of your Unger's without spending a lot of time. Thank you for your faithfulness to Jesus Who has given everything for us. In His love

My reply

My copy of Unger's is 1969, but the last revision before that was in 1966. It was reprinted in 1967 and 1969. On pages, 163 and 165, under Calendar, Jewish. Across from Abib 1, which is Nisan 1, under the heading "WEATHER," it says, "Wind S.; sometimes sirocco. Fall of the 'latter' or spring rains."

Across from Ethanim 1, which is Tishri 1, it says, "Wind N.E. Dews very heavy. Former or early, i.e., autumnal, rains begin."

In De. 11:14, the Lord said, "I will give you the rain of your land in HIS DUE SEASON, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN." That turned out to be prophetic.

Hos. 6:2,3 says, "After two days (i.e., 2000 years) will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight (fulfilled in 1948), Then shall we know, if we follow on (1967 was the Sign of the End of the Age) to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning (suggesting the beginning of the year); and he shall come unto us AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH." I think the Lord came at the First Advent as the former rain on Tishri 1, the beginning of the Civil Year, and will return as the latter rain on Nisan 1, the morning, or beginning of the Regnal and Sacred Year.

Joel 2:23 says, "he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." When the Bible does not state a certain day number, it means the first of the month, because the word for new moon was the word for month.

This agrees with Eze. 29:17,21. Verse 17 sets the month and day. It says, "in the first month, in the first day of the month" (i.e., Nisan 1, Eze. 45:18,21). Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." Agape

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Thank you so much for all the information you have posted on your web-site. It truely is a blessing to see hidden truths of the Bible brought to light. You have done a wonderful job discovering and placing pieces of the prophecy puzzle in their rightful place.

Quick question: Do you care to speculate on the role of the United States during the end-times? I figure the US will be represented by one of the ten kings mentioned in Revelations, but I'd like to know your viewpoint on this...Thanks in advance

My reply

Thanks. There is much that I don't know, but I am grateful for what I do know. It is far more than I thought possible when I prayed to understand everything.

I think like you do. It is pure speculation, but it seems likely that the US would be chosen to head up one of the ten regions of the world. Agape

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When Jesus came to earth the Jews rejected and killed him (through the romans) because they weren't expecting him to come the way he came.  They were expecting someone to save them from slavery and rule over them in glory. They had the scriptures though that said he would come in peace. They were confused because scripture spoke of him in two different ways (because he was to come in two different ways) but they preferred him coming in glory so that is what they were expecting.

  My point is this. People today inside the Christian community are confused in the same way. The reason we have the pre-trib and the pre-wrath schools of thought, with each group equally sure of there side and equally able to back their beliefs up with scripture, is because like you say he is coming at two different times.  Each group is correct, or at least half correct.

  Hopefully both sides can see that they are both right and on the same side and can come together. God bless

My reply

I sure hope they can see it, but some do not seem to be open to anything except what they have been taught. Agape

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I was going over Rev. chapter 6 and 7 and I had a few questions.  The opening of the 6th seal in verse 12, tells of some quite cataclysmic things occuring including a great earthquake and the earth being pelted with the "stars of heaven" (smaller pieces of asteroids?).  This has several awesome results; "the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together", "every mountain and island are moved out of their places" and many people seek to hide in the "rocks of the mountains".  These people obviously believe that this is the wrath of God for verse 16 says, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb".  Verse 17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"  The above destruction probably occurs as God's wrath is unleashed in response to the Gog-Magog forces coming against Israel.

  These verses in Revelation (12-14), correlate with Matthew 24:29-30 which say, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  Although these verses do not fill in the details of the destruction that the verses in Revelation indicate, it is clear it is talking about the same event for it agrees with Revelation that "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken".

  Immediately thereafter it mentions the rapture of the tribulation saints (and the gathering of the Bride, which is made more clear in Mark 13:27).  The fact that angels gather the elect from the four winds in Mat. 24:31 and the angels are seen in the verses following the opening of the sixth seal in Revelation (7:1) "standing on the four corners of the earth" and all the saints are seen in heaven in verse 9 and 14, seems to indicate that the rapture happens after the initial wrath that is described in the preceding verses (Rev. 6:12-17).  My first question is . . . doesn't it appear to you that the wrath is first initiated at the opening of the sixth seal in verse 12. I know God's wrath kicks into high gear in Chapter 8 when the 2 large asteroids hit, but it appears that the tribulation saints have to go through some of the wrath of God before they are raptured.  Don't the above scriptures I've mentioned seem to indicate that the trib. saints are here for the initial peppering of the earth, the sign of the Son of man, and the beginning of the Gog-Magog war?  If they are, how does this square with 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation (or deliverance) by our Lord Jesus Christ". And where does the nation of Israel recognizing Jesus whom they pierced, as their messiah and being saved, fit into the chronology?  Is it when the sign of the Son of man occurs?  Are they not saved through the wrath of God while in Petra to gain an earthly inheritance when Jesus comes in His glory?

  Which brings me to another question?  Why would the scripture make the point that the 144,000 Jews were sealed before mentioning the earth was to be hurt in 7:3 (referring to the soon coming wrath in chapter 8) if they were going to be immediately raptured?  Why do they need to be sealed if they are immediately going to be in heaven?  The Greek word for  seal, sphragris, means "a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation)".  Does that mean that they are fenced in in heaven from misappropriation?  Then why does it not mention that any of the other tribulation saints were "sealed"?  If the 144,000 Jews get raptured, why is there no mention of them in the rest of Chapter 7 that describes the scene in heaven?  I have heard you say that they are raptured and are in heaven with the rest of the tribulation saints.  What scriptures lead you to believe that?  Could it be possible that they were sealed for their protection because they were to stay with their Jewish brothers who have repented through the wrath of God and will have the same earthly inheritance?

  These are questions that never even occured to me until I began meditating on Chapter 6 and 7. Any insight you can give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

I think you have very good understanding of the events that take place as this age ends and the Millennium begins. I'll just tell it as I see it, and since you did such a good job, I may hit the same points you did. That should just reinforce what you said.

> Verse 17 says, "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall
> be able to stand?"

Certain unmistakeable signs take place on the last day of this age as the 6th seal is broken just before Tishri 1, 2007, the day of God's Wrath, begins at 6:00 PM. Rev. 6:12f, Mt. 24:27-31, Mk. 13:24-27 and Lu. 21:25-28 all describe this same time. It is the transition from this age to the Millennium. The time of the Tribulation is shortened right here. The 6th and 7th seals are broken on two successive days, the 6th late on the last day of this age, the 7th early on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. God's Wrath is cast on the Earth after the 7th seal breaks. Before that, the Tribulation saints must be caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

After the 6th seal is broken, the binary asteroid breaks in two, probably at the Roche Limit, 11,000 miles out. This releases the small rocks that begin falling toward Earth like untimely figs in a wind storm. Smoke obscures the Sun and Moon as the rocks ignite when they hit the atmosphere. Suddenly, the smoky heavens roll aside like a scroll and men see the Sign of the Son of Man (Mt. 24:30) sitting on his throne. People like Thomas have to see to believe. We will be blessed for believing without seeing.

Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) is Christ's Coronation Day. It begins at 6 PM. Men say to the mountains (two large asteroid pieces) and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16,17).

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture) (Mk. 13:27). Rev. 7:14,15 explains, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." They are gathered to the heavenly assembly for the Marriage of the Lamb and the following Judgment Seat of Christ.

Zeph. 2:3-5 says, "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the NOON DAY, and Ekron shall be rooted up. Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast." Both asteroids will strike at noon. The "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean) (Rev. 8:8). The "great star (aster) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) will destroy Babylon.

Joel 2:15-18 says, "Blow the trumpet in Zion (blow the alarm on the Feast of Trumpets, Gog's army is attacking Israel), sanctify a fast (the coming Day of Atonement), call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet (chuppah). Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people."

Joel 2:31,32 says, "I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion (the heavenly one) and in Jerusalem (the earthly one) shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call."

> it appears that the tribulation saints have
> to go through some of the wrath of God before they are raptured.

Not the actual wrath of God that comes with the 7 trumpet judgments, but some "indignation of the Lord" nevertheless.

Micah plays the part of a tribulation saint in Micah 7:1,2. He says, "Woe is me! for I am as (symbolic language) when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage (the second Rapture is Tishri 1; the vintage is Elul and Tishri): there is no cluster to eat: MY SOUL DESIRED THE FIRSTRIPE FRUIT (i.e., the first Rapture on Pentecost). The good man is perished (abad, evacuated, ESCAPED) OUT OF THE EARTH (at the first Rapture): and there is none upright among men."

Micah 7:9,10 says, "I will bear the INDIGNATION OF THE LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light (at the second Rapture), and I shall behold his righteousness. Then she that is mine enemy shall see it (the Sign of the Son of Man), and shame shall cover her which said unto me, Where is the LORD thy God" mine eyes shall behold her: NOW SHALL SHE BE TRODDEN DOWN as the mire of the streets."

> where does the nation of Israel recognizing Jesus whom they pierced,
> as their messiah and being saved, fit into the chronology? Is it when the
> sign of the Son of man occurs?

Isa. 66:8 speaks of the nation being saved in a day. I think it is Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the most event-packed day--ever, both in Heaven and on Earth. Yes. It is right after the Sign of the Son of Man is seen.

> Are they not saved through the wrath of God while in Petra to
> gain an earthly inheritance when Jesus comes in His glory?

Most of those that flee to Petra do so because they are Messianic Jews and know their Bible. They accept Yeshua (Yah Shua) as their Messiah. Therefore, they will be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. If anyone else fled Jerusalem with them, they would still be in Petra. Those that accept Christ after the Pre-Wrath Rapture will live on into the Millennium. They will be joined by resurrected OT saints. Daniel will stand in his own lot in Israel on the 1335th day after Mid-Trib.

> the 144,000 Jews...Why do they need to
> be sealed if they are immediately going to be in heaven?

Probably so there will be a record of the presence of 12 tribes. Ten are not lost, as many think. Dan is omitted, probably because the False Prophet is from that tribe. Ephraim is also omitted. Both the tribes of Dan and Ephraim fell into idol worship. They are to be protected from the destroyers. Eze. 9:1-6 says, Cause them that have charge over the city (of Jerusalem) to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand. And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar. And the gloy of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side; And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and SET A MARK UPON THE FOREHEADS OF THE MEN THAT SIGH AND THAT CRY for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and SMITE: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young."

> I have heard you say that they are raptured and are in heaven with the rest
> of the tribulation saints. What scriptures lead you to believe that?

Rev. 7:9,14,15 says I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, OF ALL NATIONS (that includes Israel), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God." Agape

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I am new at this but it looks like the math is adding up. I read "Space To Repent" and I was impressed! Very helpful for those who are questioning if they will be found worthy to escape the tribulation that is coming. I now have something to share with people who are wondering what they must do. I am even going to share this with my pastor. Good sermon material. The Body Of Christ must stay alert and not be found sleeping.

"Space to Repent" would be good for every believer to read. Thank you Marilyn! Love In Christ

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Jim Bramlett wrote:
The below was copied from a Charles Capps tract and sent to me by a friend:

..."The ninth chapter of Daniel reveals that there is one seven year Sabbatical cycle which must be fulfilled here on earth before Christ sets up the seventh millennium of Righteous rule here on planet Earth. That seven year cycle is what is know as the Tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week. Since it is the last seven years of Daniel's 70th week (of years), it would seem that it must begin at the beginning of a Sabbatical cycle. The next Sabbatical cycle seems to be in the fall of the year 2000. Will the Church be caught up in the Rapture and Tribulation beginning on earth in the year 2000? No one knows for sure, but if the Tribulation period does not begin at the beginning of the next Sabbatical cycle, then that would seem to indicate that our calendar is off by as much as seven years or more....

My reply

Sorry to be so long answering. This part about the Sabbatic Year is too interesting to not get posted.

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