Hi ! I will try to make this as simple, quick, and painless as possible. I started out believing Pre-trib because it was the only view that I was taught. When I started reading the Bible and started putting aside "study aids" that is when I realized that the rapture was post-trib. I know all about the pre-trib view already because that is what I was first taught. I hardly knew anything then, I just started reading the Bible at that time. But now I am convinced that the Bible is very clear and also very tight on the issue of the second coming of Christ and our gathering together to him. Christ called his second coming: "the sign of the Son of man."
***From Marilyn: I don't think so. The Sign of the Son of Man of Mt. 24:30 is seen after the 6th seal breaks at the end of this age. Rev. 6:12f says, "I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal...the sun became black...the moon became as blood. And the stars (meteorites) of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven (the smokey atmosphere) departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the...men...hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains (2 large asteroids, Rev. 8:8,10) and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from THE FACE OF HIM THAT SITTETH ON THE THRONE` and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME." The Day of God's Wrath is the first day of the Millennium. As soon as the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place (Rev. 7:14), the 7th seal is broken (in Rev. 8), and the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth.
***This day of thick darkness (Joel 2:1-3) is not the day of the glorious Second Coming. That will not be a dark day. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, NOR DARK: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."
***There are 7 months (Eze. 39:12) between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Coming.
He said that he would gather his elect after this sign appeared, and he also said that the sign of his coming would be as LIGHTNING which is seen from one end of the sky to the other. Revelation 1:7 says that every eye shall see him (all the survivors of the tribulation, Zech. chapter 14), even those who pierced him (national Israel). ITS RIGHT THERE IN REVELATION CHAPTER 1. The book of revelation starts off by telling you what Christ's second coming will be like. It doesn't seem to be describing a secret pre-trib rapture.
***The Pre-Trib Rapture is not secret. Psa. 40:1-3 indicates that "many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD." The whole book of Revelation is written as if the Rature was "at hand" (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (Rev. 2:5; 3:11). Chapter 1 is a Preview of the Rapture that takes place in 4:1. The Pre-Trib Rapture saints are the group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The Pre-Wrath Rapture saints are the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" of Rev. 7:9,14. There are two Raptures.
Anyway, these are the some of the reasons why I believe that second coming and the rapture are both on the last day of the tribulation.
***The Judgment Seat of Christ is on the Day of God's Wrath, 7 months BEFORE the Second Coming (Eze. 39:12). If what you said was true, you would miss out on your rewards. Christ returns WITH all his saints (Zech. 14:5). They are caught up previously, and rewarded previously.
***Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel, Eze. 38), and THY WRATH IS COME (Eze. 38:18-20), and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (the Judgment Seat of Christ), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the Earth" (with the 7 trumpet judgments).
(that is, THE DAY OF THE LORD) If you look at 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, Paul tells them information concerning "THE COMING OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM." Notice how Paul NEVER breaks up those 2 events in the remainder of the chapter. He calls the day when they both occur: THE DAY OF CHRIST.
***That should be the Day of the Lord, as in all major MSS. The 1st Day of Christ/Day of the Son of Man is the Pre-Trib Rapture. The 2nd Day of Christ/Day of the Son of Man is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, which takes place on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord.
Lu. 17:22-24 refers to the Day of Christ as the Day of the Son of Man. It says, "The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days (there are two) of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it (the first one). And they shall say to you (in the Tribulation), See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day (the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord).
***In verse 26, Jesus said, And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN." One was taken, and another left. That is the Pre-Trib Rapture.
***Verses 28-30 say, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot (the Pre-Wrath Rapture)...But the SAME DAY that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven...Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED." The Sign of the Son of Man is seen as this age ends and the Millennium begins. Fire and brimstone, the two asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10, strike Earth that first day of the Millennium.
If "OUR GATHERING" was at an earlier time, don't you think Paul would have explained that to them. He treats both events as simultaneous events that occur on the SAME DAY. Read that chapter over and over again if you have to. Remember, he told you that THAT DAY shall not come until the man of sin is revealed, and he finally gets revealed when he sits in the temple and proclaims himself to be God.
***Since you follow that line of reasoning, why don't you think that Christ's Second Advent will be in the middle of the Tribulation, when the False Prophet sits in the temple?
***In II Thess. 2:3, the words "falling away" seem to be misleading you too. The word is apostasia, the DEPARTURE, leaving, as in apostacion, divorcement." It was so translated in several early Bibles. The man of sin is the False Prophet. He can't be revealed until the DEPARTURE, the Pre-Trib Rapture, takes place. The Holy Spirit is hindering his coming forth. Verse 6 says, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time." He will be revealed when he and the Beast confirm the covenant, i.e., the Final Status Peace Agreement, after we are gone. I think that will be on the Feast of Weeks in 2001 that kicks off the Tribulation.
(that's THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION of Mat. 24) Christ says that those that are in Judea should FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS when they see the abomination of desolation take place.
***That is Mid-Trib.
Now if you look at the parallel passage in Zechariah chapter 14 you will see that when the FLEEING takes place, THAT'S THE SAME DAY THAT JESUS COMES AND STEPS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
***Here you are reasoning yourself right back to placing the Second Advent in Mid-Trib again.
AND IT SPLITS TO FORM A GREAT VALLEY.
***It splits 7 months after the millennial Day of the Lord begins.
THEN THE PEOPLE ARE TOLD TO FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS. THE WHOLE CHAPTER DESCRIBES THE DAY OF THE LORD. ITS ONLY DESCRIBING ONE DAY. A DAY WHICH GOES FROM HELL ON EARTH TO HEAVEN ON EARTH. THEN THE LORD MY GOD SHALL COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE. (Zech.14:5)
***Now do you see why II Tim. 2:15 warns, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth"? You are talking yourself into a corner. The Second Advent is not Mid-Trib. Just because people flee in the middle of the Tribulation and flee on the day of the Second Advent does not make the two things happen on the same day. People can flee at both times and they be on different days.
Also, in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 Paul says "THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST, THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP". Paul is describing the FIRST RESURRECTION and subsequent RAPTURE (OUR GATHERING TO HIM).
***I Cor. 15:22,23 says, "in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT every man in HIS OWN ORDER (tagmati, rank); Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming." I think the ranks are as follows: (1) Christ, THE SEED in the SHEAF offered on the Feast of Firstfruits in 30 AD, (2) the rest of that first SHEAF ("And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose," Mt. 27:52); (3) The Pre-Trib Rapture group and (4) the Pre-Wrath Rapture group. Together, these make up the First Resurrection.
This FIRST RESURRECTION must include those in the TRIBULATION who got martyred for Christ. Look at Revelation chapter 20 when it describes those who take part in the FIRST RESURRECTION. Those are the ones who didn't worship the beast or get his mark, etc. If the pre-trib rapture were true, the tribulation martyrs would have missed the FIRST RESURRECTION which supposedly took place before the tribulation even started! WOW! How wrong can you get!
***I hope not as wrong as you are.
The FIRST RESURRECTION is at the LAST TRUMP
***If there is a last trump of God, there is a first trump of God. The first one that sounded was at the time of Pentecost at Sinai. I think the first trump, the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be on Pentecost.
according to Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 15!!!
***We have to rightly divide the word of truth. I Thess. 4:13-18 is talking about the first trump of God. I Cor. 15:51,52 is talking about the last trump of God.
> THEN (at that time) the Old Testament saying will be fulfilled "O grave where is thy victory!" Right now, the dead in Christ are ABSENT FROM THE BODY and present with the Lord.
Christ said in John chapter 6 that whoever believed in him would be RAISED UP at the LAST DAY. The LAST DAY can't possibly be before the tribulation. It has to be at the end.
***By the time the Pre-Wrath Rapture is over, ALL saints ("small and great," Rev. 11:18) will be in Heaven, ready to receive their rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
***On that day, Christ will "send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those who were previously caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
That's why it's called the LAST day. That's when the FIRST RESURRECTION/RAPTURE takes place.
***It is the last trump. It is the second Rapture. It is the 4th rank in the First Resurrection.
And don't try to stretch that DAY out. Let's leave the Bible alone and just take it for what it says, OK. Day means DAY unless the Bible tells us otherwise. It's like in Genesis. God created everything in six literal DAYS. I don't know what your opinion on that is, but I believe that it is a normal day consisting of 24 hrs.
***God doesn't tell us how long the original creation took. The Bible only covers about 7000 years of time. The plants and animals here before Adam had been destroyed by an asteroid impact. The surface of the Earth was all covered with water, and "darkness (from the smoke and debris) was upon the face of the deep" (Gen. 1:2).
***God did not create the Earth waste and desolate. Isa. 45:18 says, "For thus saith the LORD that created (bara, to creat a new thing) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar, to mould into a form, as a potter) the earth and made (asah, dressed, fashioned, prepared) it; he hath established (kun, formed, established) it, he created (bara) it NOT IN VAIN (tohu, ruin, waste), he formed (yatsar, to mould into a form, as a potter) it to be inhabited."
***The original creation was not "tohu." It BECAME "tohu."
***Gen. 1:2: "And the earth was (hajah, had become) without form (tohu, ruin, waste), and void (bohu, desolate); and darkness was upon the face of the deep" (from the smoky atmosphere caused by the asteroid impact).
***The six days in which God refashioned the Earth to make it a fit habitation for Adam were 24-hour days. The plants would have died if the night had been 500 years.
No more, no less. So when the Bible says "DAY" I take it to be just that. So, the LAST DAY is when the FIRST RESURRECTION takes place. This is the same as in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Paul says "AT THE LAST TRUMP" the dead in Christ shall be RAISED and WE SHALL BE CHANGED FROM MORTAL TO IMMORTAL. The seven bowls of WRATH will then be poured out on the world on THAT SAME DAY.
***The last day is the last rank in the First Resurrection. It is when "ALL' the saints are gathered to the assembly in Heaven (Heb. 12:23). At that time we all become immortal. You are right in that the Wrath is poured on Earth on that same day.
Then we will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years and the survivors from all the nations that fought at Jerusalem will have to go up to Jerusalem each year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles and to worship Jesus Christ the LORD. (Zech. chapter 14)
I can give you some more, but I'll end it with this one. Listen carefully. In 2 Peter chapter 3, Peter says that there will be scoffers in the last days saying "where is the promise of his coming." This is important because Peter goes on to explain what will happen when Christ comes,...and he never ever mentions a secret pre-trib rapture before the second coming. He says in verse 10, "but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." This is the day of the Lord's wrath, THE LAST DAY OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD.
***"Listen carefully." II Pet. 3:4f says, "Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION." We do not have the whole face of the Earth covered with water now, as it was in Gen. 1:1. Therefore from the beginning of the creation, there was both land and sea, as it is now.
***Peter continues, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God (i.e., by Christ, the Word, Jn. 1:1-3) the heavens were OF OLD, AND THE EARTH STANDING OUT OF THE WATER AND IN THE WATER; WHEREBY THE WORLD (kosmos, order of things) THAT THEN WAS, BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER (see Gen. 1:1), PERISHED."
***The kosmos before Adam, "BEING OVERFLOWED WITH WATER, PERISHED." It BECAME tohu and bohu, waste and desolate. It was not originally created tohu and bohu.
***"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word (Christ) are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the DAY OF JUDGMENT (Judgment Seat of Christ) and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved (believers), be NOT IGNORANT OF THIS ONE THING, THAT ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise (of the Pre-Trib Rapture), as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to REPENTANCE (the thing that makes it possible to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture). But the (millennial) Day of the Lord will come (first day of the 1000) as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (by the two asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10).
> NOW FOR THE CLINCHER. If you look a couple of verses later at verse 12 of that same chapter, Peter says that we are to look for THAT DAY to HASTEN ITS COMING.
***We are not hastening its coming. God decided when things would happen before the world began. Neither would we want to; it is the worst day since there was a nation. We are SPEEDING TOWARD this day. II Pet. 3:12 says, "Looking for and hasting (speudo, speeding) unto the coming (parousia, appearance, i.e., the Sign of the Son of Man seen on the Day of God's Wrath) of the day of God (i.e., the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord), wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."
We are supposted to be looking for THAT DAY because that's THE DAY when Christ's one and only second coming (and subsequent gathering) will take place. It's the same day when Paul said the Antichrist would be revealed and then destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming.
GET IT? (it's pretty clear to me)
***No. You don't "GET IT." What you say is pretty mixed up. First, you have the Second Advent taking place in the middle of the Tribulation. Now you have the Antichrist revealed at the end of the Tribulation.
***This is the order of events as I understand them:
Beginning of the Tribulation
--Feast of Weeks
--Seventieth Week of Daniel
--The Beast and False Prophet "confirm" the covenant (Dan. 9:27)
--Moses and Elijah prophesy for the next 1260 days
--Satan cast out of Heaven, enters into the False Prophet
--False Prophet comes to full power over World Government and World Church
----Places the abomination of desolation
----Sits in the temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4)
----Kills Moses and Elijah
--Last half of Trib shortened to 1040 days (1260 + 1040 = 2300) (Dan. 8:14)
Feast of Trumpets
----Tishri 1, first day of the Jewish Civil Year
----2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14)
----First day of the millennial Day of the Lord
----Coronation of Christ
----Marriage of the Lamb
----Calling the Tribulation saints from Earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture)
----Judgment Seat of Christ
------Saints receive rewards for their belief
------Unbelievers on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief
----Marriage Supper of the Lamb
--Day of God's Wrath
--Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21), first day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year
--It has to take place 7 months (Eze. 39:12) after the Feast of Trumpets
--Therefore it is in a Jewish Leap Year
SAL_CONTE@HOTMAIL.COM (Please, feel free to email me. Hit me with your best shot!)
P.S. I'll leave you with Christ's prayer for the believers in John 18 verses 15 and 20.
JESUS: "I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL" "NEITHER PRAY I FOR THESE ALONE (THE APOSTLES), BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD (THAT'S US!!!)"
After hearing this from Jesus, I really don't think that Jesus would approve of the whole pre-trib, Left Behind thing. I think that the Holy Spirit is probably the one responsible for ripping your Scofield Study Bible apart. He's just trying to tell you something...and I don't blame Him! (If you knew the truth about Scofield's life, you wouldn't be so proud to use his study Bible. He deserted his wife and kids while putting together his study Bible. I'm not kidding. His wife wouldn't divorce him because she was a Christian. He deserted his family and finally got divorced and remarried. He also fooled around with some other women after his first wife. I tell my wife (who has a Scofield Bible) not to bother with his study notes because they are so faulty. Just look at the first note on page 1016. Jesus says "FIRST THE TARES ARE TAKEN OUT." While Scofield's note says "FIRST THE WHEAT IS GATHERED." He's too busy thinking PRE-TRIB that he directly denies what Jesus said.
***You are so busy thinking there is no PRE-TRIB that you fail to see what it really says. What you are thinking would put the wheat through the Wrath of God. Do you really want to say that? Do you want to be here then? The globe will be turned upside down, every wall will fall, and men left will be so few that a child could write the number.
What Jesus really said in Mt. 13:30 is, "I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles TO BURN THEM." It doesn't say they are burned yet, only gathered in bundles to be burned. This world has already been divided into 10 regions. During the Tribulation, there will be a king over each of the 10 regions. The tares will have been bound in bundles to be burned. Jesus went on to say, "but gather the wheat into my barn." Mk. 13:27 agrees: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of HEAVEN." Those gathered from Heaven got there in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Those gathered from Earth go in the Pre-Wrath Rapture.
This kind of false teaching was predicted by Peter in 2 Peter chapter 2 and by Jesus himself in Matthew 24:11. Scofield is plainly denying the teaching of Christ. We need to just stick to the Bible and forget about man made fables.
***I have a whole shelf of Bibles. I don't just use one. I have read every word of at least 15 versions, and the main prophecy passages of several more. Right now, I am reading as much as possible in the Complete Jewish Bible, the exeGesis Parallel Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible. I carry one with me to read when I take Ed to Cardiac Rehab on top of what I read here at home. I actually have already finished the prophetic parts of all three, and finished the entire NT in the CJB. I'm in Luke in the exeGesis Bible. Herb Jahn put the gospel of John first in the NT. How many versions have you read? The Scofield is the King James Bible. Only the notes are Scofield's. He is not always right, but he did a marvelous job. Very few could do as well. R.B. Thieme, Jr. found a few places where Scofield made a mistake, and it was because he didn't know the original languages. Thieme said that Scofield was a genius.
***The names of the editorial committee who worked on the New Scofield Reference Bible are well known in their field: Frank Gaebelein, William Culbertson, Charles Feinberg, Allan Mac Rae, Clarence Mason, Alva Mc Clain, Wilbur Smith and John Walvoord. Are you willing to pit your knowledge and reasoning against theirs?
***Their note below I Thess. 4:13-18 says, "This central passage on the blessed hope of the Church includes: (1) reassurance (vv. 13-14); (2) revelation (vv. 15-17, setting forth the return of Christ, the rapture of the Church, and the reunion of all believers); and (3) comfort (v. 18)."
***Their translation of II Thess. 2:2 says, "day of the Lord." They corrected that mistake in the KJV.
***Isa. 57:1-3 (KJV) says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, ESCAPE), and no man layeth it to heart: and MERCIFUL MEN ARE TAKEN AWAY, none considering that THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness. But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore." The Pre-Trib Rapture comes first. Then the Tribulation follows, when the harlot church will be in power.
***Remember that in days to come, "THE RIGHTEOUS IS TAKEN AWAY FROM THE EVIL TO COME." Let it ring through your head like a catchy tune.
***Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."
***(James 5:7-8 KJV) " Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." The former rain is in Tishri, in the autumn. The latter rain is in Nisan, in the spring. The next feast to follow those in Nisan is Pentecost.
***I am hoping that the Rapture will be Pentecost, 2000. I think the Seventieth Week of Daniel/Tribulation will begin on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 2001. The 2300 days of Dan. 8:14, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, run from this Feast of Weeks to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 (Sept. 13). I think that will be the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That is the first day of the Jewish year 5768, which is a leap year. Seven months later is Nisan 1, 5768 (April 6, 2008). This is the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year, a fitting time for the Second Advent of the King of kings and Lord of lords. I think he will return on the same date that all the other Israelite kings officially took office, Nisan 1.
***I feel sorry that you have no blessed hope, as I have. All you have to look forward to is the Tribulation, the worst seven years since there was a nation. It isn't too inspiring, is it?
***Titus 2:12-15 says, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (aionos, age); LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."
***I'm looking for Christ the Lord of all creation. Sorry that you are looking for the Antichrist first. Agape
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