Pro and Con 470

Uploaded 3-22-00

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Bobby Dill wrote:
At 5:30am this morning what seemed like a gust of wind came through the window of Daddy's room, blew the shades in toward His bed, knocked the cards setting in front of the window on the floor. Then just as suddenly went back the same way it came in. Lewis was setting right in front of the window and said he felt no air or anything. Just a sudden unexpected rush of "Something" to and from Daddy's bed and back out the window...The window seems to be airtight...I told Dorothy & Lewis it had to be the Angel who came and got Daddy to take Him Home...

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with us. It seems that strange things happen around such times. It is like the door to the other side opens briefly. I heard my mother's voice after sleeping in her house the next night. She said, "Marilyn, there's no way I'm 84 years old." At the cemetery, my mother-in-law saw her husband, looking healthy, dressed nice and wearing a whiter-than-white shirt, turn and walk up and over a grassy knoll. In sympathy

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Re: revelation and pro & con 251
I happened to see Pro and Con 251 by searching on the web...I am very interested in your views concerning the coming 'harvest'or "rapture" but I cannot find your original page.

Over the last few years, I have (beginning slowly but recently picking up in intensity) tried to understand the prophetic book of Revelation. I have a few views that I would like your comments on.

1. I am a post tribulation rapture believer. I think that the pre-trib view is invalid because that would make us the first of Gods people to not have to endure a trial period before getting the benefits (joining Christ to begin the millennial reign) of God's Grace.

2. In my study of Revelation people have said 1:7 represents the "rapture of the church", does it not just continue the description of our Savior?

3. I have made a small 'timeline' on my study of Revelation. May I have your view on my breakdown of this chapter?

ch 1. John is " in the spirit " and Jesus gives him a vision of things that are and things that are to come.
ch 2. the letters to the churches are literal letters and also descriptions of the seven ages of the christian church.
ch. 3. ch 2. continued
ch 4. John (in the spirit) is called to Heaven to witness 'what must take place' and he describes the scene in Heaven ... Elders...his prophets from before Christ? i.e.. Elijah etc.? God in heaven preparing for judgment of the earth?
ch 5. Jesus is found as the only one worthy of opening the 'scroll'
ch 6. 1st seal antichrist power comes into being ?holy catholic church?
2nd seal christians are martyred /dark ages?/millions of christians murdered by the holy catholic church
3rd seal antichrist power has hands in politic and economic dealings worldwide
4th seal Death--constant wars, famines on earth, deadly diseases worldwide
5th seal a symbolic crying out of those martyred in Christ's name? a cry that is still resounding across the world!
6th seal The Great Earthquake, darkened sun, blood moon, stars fall to earth
ch 7 7th seal 4 angels rise to complete 6th seal v2 angel from God to hold the 4 angels keeping back the Earthquake and subsequential damage to the earth
WE ARE HERE IN MY TIME LINE-----------}
sealing of the 144,000 (those who will survive the Great Tribulation??) others to be martyred in Christ over the period of Tribulation
ch 8 completion of 7th seal marking the beginning of the Great Tribulation
1st trump - 1/3 Earth Burned
2nd trump - 1/3 sea life destroyed 1/3 ships destroyed
3rd trump - Wormwood falls many die
4th trump - 1/3 sun moon and stars darkened
WOE! WOE! WOE! Three woes to come!
ch 9, 5th Trump 1st woe Demon Locust
6th Trump 2nd woe 4 angels w/ 200 million Demon Horsemen 1/3 mankind dead MEN STILL DO NOT REPENT!!!
ch 10 the Great Angel prophesying John sees scroll but is told not to reveal it
ch 11 2 witnesses could be like LaHaye and Jenkins said that seems to be the literal taking of revelation prophesy in this chapter I have also encountered people that say it could be representative of the 2 books of the bible
7th trumpet 3rd woe Earth quakes Lightning Thunder Great Hailstorm
ch 12 seems to me to be a history of the "church"
ch 13 a history of the antichrist power and prophesy of the antichrist man.
ch 14 describes that Jesus power is plain to see and the 144,000 now await His immanent return. Three angels
1 Give Glory to God
2 Fallen is Babylon(Antichrist Power and man)
3 Warning Man of Jesus immanent return and to not turn to the Antochrist power, the saints (christians)should stay vigilant
v14-15 Jesus coming on the cloud and reaping his harvest (the Rapture)
v 16-18 what will happen to those non-christians who are left behind
ch 15 the saved give to God glory and God prepares to cleanse the Earth with his final 7 judgments, the Vial Judgments
ch 16 THE VIAL JUDGMENTS Earth is cleansed!! ch 17 John is shown who the antichrist power is
ch 18 John is shown the fall of 'Mystery Babylon' the whore of the Earth
ch 19 Glory to God, it is He that is Faithful and True, He shall tread the winepress of fury and call birds of the earth to feast on the flesh of the dead on earth
ch 20 satan locked in the abyss and the millennial reign of Christ saints will judge the dead
ch 21 The NEW JERUSALEM comes to earth, Satan comes out of the abyss with the unrightous to wage war on God and he is crushed!(the second death)
ch 22 Describes Heaven and tells us to be patient and vigilant.

Thank you for looking over my notes. If you would write me back with your opinions on my views I would appreciate it very much. I've even thought of writing my views up in a book and trying to get it published, can you suggest a publisher? Do you think that it is wise with the world descending as it is? Thank you again.

My reply

> I cannot find your original page

There is a link at the bottom of every file that takes you back to the Home Page. This is the URL: http://www.pe.net/~mjagee There is also an Index on the Home Page that has links to every file on my site.

> I am a post tribulation rapture believer.

Is AFTER the Tribulation really what you mean? That would mean that the Church would go through the Day of God's Wrath on the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14)? We are not appointed to wrath.

I am Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath. There are two Raptures. The first group is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." They are seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The second group is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that "came out of great tribulation" in Rev. 7:9,14).

The main difference in the two groups is that the first group was ready when the Bridegroom came. The second group had to wash their robes, and make them white in the blood of the Lamb, i.e., they had to repent and confess their sins, as the Laodiceans were told in Rev. 3:19.

> > I think that the pre-trib view is invalid because that would make us the first of Gods people to not have to endure a trial period before getting the benefits (joining Christ to begin the millennial reign) of God's Grace.

I think we have been going through a time of testing. Jesus told Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat. I think we are being sifted right now. We had better stay in the sieve no matter how hard we are shook.

As for the benefits. I would rather be part of the Bride of Christ than to just reign with him 1000 years.

> > people have said 1:7 represents the "rapture of the church", does it not just continue the description of our Savior?

Rev. 1:7 is referring to the future Second Advent, when "every eye shall see him."

> > May I have your view on my breakdown of this chapter?
ch 1. John is " in the spirit " and Jesus gives him a vision of things that are and things that are to come.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is when he is revealed to us at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The whole book is written as if this Rapture is "at hand." It is "at hand" in the first chapter (1:3), and it is "at hand" in the last chapter (22:10). Jesus signs off with, "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11).

This book is a dramatic miracle play. Jesus wrote the script and is the producer. John is narrator, actor and scribe. Just as our movie producers do, Jesus starts off this dramatic production with a Preview. In chapter 1 is the Preview of the Pre-Trib Rapture. John introduces Christ (4-7). Then Jesus tells us who he really is in case we didn't quite get it before. He says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Lord of the Old Testament) and the ending (Lord of the New Testament), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the ALMIGHTY."

John was on Patmos, which means mortal. He was mortal, then suddenly became in the Spirit and found himself in Heaven. The Rapture took place in verse 10. John said, "I was (literally became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." This is the same voice of Christ that we hear in Rev. 4:1, when the actual Rapture takes place. In 4:1, the door was opened in Heaven and "the first voice which I heard (in 1:10) was as it were OF A TRUMPET TALKING WITH ME, WHICH SAID, COME UP HITHER."

John, finding himself in Heaven and hearing the voice like a trumpet, turned to see who was speaking. He saw Christ in all his glory. Around him were the candlesticks that represented the seven churches. Still in his hand were the star performers of the seven church groups that he had just caught up (1:12,20).

His "head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars (the star performers): and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword (to cut off those that have no place in the first Rapture) (Lu. 12:46): and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength" (1:14-16).

As the elders fall at his feet in Rev. 5, in the Preview, John (one of the 24 elders) falls at Christ's feet as if dead. Just as he will resurrect the dead in Christ at the Rapture, Jesus puts his right hand upon John and says, "Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." John revived, and was assigned the task of writing things for the benefit of those that would live in our days when the Rapture truly is "at hand."

Jesus said, "Write the things which thou hast seen (before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be hereafter (after the Rapture, as in Rev. 4:1). In each of his messages to the seven churches, Jesus describes himself as he will be seen at the Rapture, as he was seen in the Preview. To Ephesus, he is "he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks." To Smyrna, he is "the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive," etc.

The messages to the churches are when the Rapture is "at hand," but Jesus reaches back in time, grabs some of their history, and stretches it up to the present day. This way, his messages not only are when the Rapture is "at hand," but give us a view of Church history throughout this age up to the time of the Rapture.

Only one church group is said to have Heaven's "open door" set before them, the Philadelphians (3:8). They are not told to repent. They already have. That is so important for us to do right now to prepare ourselves for the Rapture. Luke 21:36 says, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." The word for escape is EKPHEUGO, "escape OUT OF or AWAY FROM." We get our word EXIT from the prefix, "EK." Strong's gives "vanish" as an alternate meaning for EKPHEUGO. From ESCAPE to VANISH, not the slightest hint of "survive through."

> > ch 4. John (in the spirit) is called to Heaven to witness 'what must take place' and he describes the scene in Heaven ... Elders...his prophets from before Christ? i.e.. Elijah etc.? God in heaven preparing for judgment of the earth?

In Rev. 4:1, John is caused to act out the Rapture that we saw before in the Preview. He actually is one of the 24 elders. Twelve are the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel. Twelve are the apostles. After the Rapture, John is shown what comes "hereafter," after the Rapture. Before the Tribulation begins in chapter 6, the group of Rev. 5:9 is safely in Heaven. Everything described after 4:1 is still future. It takes place "hereafter" the Rapture.

> > ch 6. 1st seal antichrist power comes into being ?holy catholic church? 2nd seal christians are martyred /dark ages?/millions of christians murdered by the holy catholic church
3rd seal antichrist power has hands in politic and economic dealings worldwide

The first rider is the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10. I think he is the Tribulation Pope. He has a bow of simple fabric, demonstrating that he is a man of the cloth, a religious leader. He masquerades as a prince of peace, hence the white horse. This phase lasts about the first year of the seven-year Tribulation.

Then the same man, head of both world church and world government, rides a different horse, a red one that stands for bloodshed, war. This comes about in the second year of the Tribulation.

Then the same man, rides another horse, a black one that stands for famine. Moses and Elijah started their 1260 days of prophesying when the Beast began his 1260 days in office. They have power that it not rain during the days of their prophesying. No rain--no crops--sky high prices for what is left--famine.

> > 4th seal Death--constant wars, famines on earth, deadly diseases worldwide

The fourth seal is broken Mid-Trib. The False Prophet takes the reins of world government and world church. He is called Death, and Hell (Satan) possesses him--rides with him, operates through him.

Isa. 28:15,18: "Because ye have said, We have made a covenant (Final Status Peace Agreement) with DEATH, and with HELL we are at agreement: when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves....And your covenant with DEATH shall be disannulled, and your agreement with HELL shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it."

> >ch 7 7th seal 4 angels rise to complete 6th seal v2 angel from God to hold the 4 angels keeping back the Earthquake and subsequential damage to the earth
WE ARE HERE IN MY TIME LINE-----------}

I thank God that we aren't. The Pre-Trib Rapture has not happened yet. The Final Status Peace Agreement has not yet been "confirmed" (Dan. 9:27) by the Beast and the False Prophet, kicking off the Tribulation.

What happens under the 6th seal is the Pre-Wrath Rapture. That is why the angels are holding back the winds. Every believer must be in Heaven before the 7 trumpet judgments are unleashed on Earth on the 2300th day of the Tribulation. I think that day will be Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007), the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. The 2300 days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, run from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007.

> > sealing of the 144,000 (those who will survive the Great Tribulation??)

The 144,000 Israelites are the only ones who attain the status of wise virgins during the Tribulation years ("they are virgins," 14:4). They "are without fault before the throne of God" (14:5). They will join the Philadelphian wise virgins at the general assembly in Heaven the first day of the Millennium.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven (those who were caught up to Heaven in the Pre-Trib Rapture)."

They are gathered in Heaven for the Coronation of Christ, the Marriage of the Lamb, the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rev. 11:17-19), and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Saints in Heaven are given their rewards at the same time that unbelievers on Earth get their just rewards for their unbelief.

> > ch 8 completion of 7th seal marking the beginning of the Great Tribulation

The 7th seal releases the 7 trumpet judgments on unbelievers on the Day of God's Wrath, the 2300th day of the Tribulation. All fall on the same day, the first day of the Millennium.

> > 2nd trump - 1/3 sea life destroyed 1/3 ships destroyed
3rd trump - Wormwood falls many die

Under the 2nd trumpet, a mountain-sized asteroid impacts in the Mediterranean Ocean (Zeph. 2:4,5). This asteroid impact stops Gog's army that is attacking Israel that day. It causes a world wide earthquake, and every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20). It caused a tsunami, "the overflowing scourge" Isaiah 28:15-18 talked about. Under the 3rd trumpet, "there fell a great star (aster, star, asteroid, or meteorite) from heaven, burning as it were a lamp." This asteroid impact destroys Babylon.

> > ch 11 2 witnesses could be like LaHaye and Jenkins said that seems to be the literal taking of revelation prophesy in this chapter I have also encountered people that say it could be representative of the 2 books of the bible

The 2 witnesses are Moses and Elijah. Examine the powers they have and compare the two candlesticks in Zech. 4:11-14. Verse 14 says, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah stood by Christ at the Transfiguration.

> > ch 14 describes that Jesus power is plain to see and the 144,000 now await His immanent return.

Jesus' return in not imminent. It will come on Nisan 1, the first day of the Jewish regnal and sacred year (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). It must be in a Jewish leap year for there are 7 months (Eze. 38:12) between the catastrophe on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1) and the return of Christ on the following Nisan 1.

> > ch 12 seems to me to be a history of the "church"

It is talking about literal Israel. When the abomination of desolation goes up at the temple Mid-Trib, the ones who know their Bible, i.e., the Messianic Jews, flee to Petra.

> > ch 13 a history of the antichrist power and prophesy of the antichrist man.

The Beast is described from 13:2-10. The False Prophet is described from 13:11 to 18. He is the one that speaks as a dragon.

> > v14-15 Jesus coming on the cloud and reaping his harvest (the Rapture)

It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture.

> > ch 16 THE VIAL JUDGMENTS Earth is cleansed!!

The 7 trumpet judgments all take place on one day. the 7 vials represent the total destruction over a bit more time. For instance, in 8:8, 1/3rd of the Mediterranean Sea became blood. In 16:3, "every living soul died in the sea."

> > ch 17 John is shown who the antichrist power is

He is shown who the harlot church is, and it is headed up by the Beast. The Satan-possessed False Prophet is the final Antichrist. > > ch 21 The NEW JERUSALEM comes to earth,

And sets down in Israel, I suppose. It is about 1500 miles across. It won't fit. Israel is about the size of Rhode Island. The city would cover from the Mississippi to the Atlantic. Instead, it seems to orbit the Earth like the Moon.

> > even thought of writing my views up in a book

It took too long on my third book, Revelations 2000. I gave Avon Books my MSS at the end of August and it was not published for about 16 months. I don't think we have that kind of time left now if you had the MSS ready to go. Agape

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Richard Engstrom wrote: Re: Fw: Pre-Trib Rapture objections # 4. "one shall be taken, the other

Although I favor your theory of multiple Raptures, I must object to your take as expressed in your paragraph below:

You wrote:
> Mk. 13:27 shows that the elect are partly on Earth and partly in Heaven
> at the time of Rapture 2. It says, "then he shall send his angels, and
> shall gather together (to the "general assembly...in heaven," Heb.
> 12:22,23) his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the
> earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those
> caught up previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture). Lu. 17:36,37 speaks of
> this gathering of all the elect. It says, Two men shall be in the field;
> the one shall be taken (caught up in Rapture 2), and the other
> left....Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body (Body
> of Christ) is, thither will the eagles (high flying Tribulation saints)
> be gathered together."

Reply:
There is no mention of "fleeing" in the Matthew passage as there is the the Luke 17 passage. Why would the saints need to flee if they were going to be taken up in the second Rapture. Also, you relegation of the "body" to the "Body of Christ, and the "eagles" to "high flying Tribulation saints" is only an arbitrary interpretation to fit your theory. There is nothing in this Luke passage to warrant such a leap. "Uttermost parts of heaven" could just as easily be seen as those who are, at that

Richard, and
"us" 1 John 4:6...THE GREAT DREAM web site, http://www.apostasynow.com

My reply

> > There is no mention of "fleeing" in the Matthew passage as there is the the Luke 17 passage.

It is puzzling to try to figure out what you are talking about. I didn't mention Matthew and Luke 17 doesn't mention "fleeing."

Mt. 24:15,16 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains," but that is Mid-Trib, not on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14).

Lu. 21:20.21 says, "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea FLEE to the mountains," but that was before Jerusalem was burned in 70 AD.

> > you relegation of the "body" to the "Body of Christ, and the "eagles" to "high flying Tribulation saints" is only an arbitrary interpretation to fit your theory. There is nothing in this Luke passage to warrant such a leap.

There doesn't have to be. God's teachings are scattered throughout the Bible. We have to compare scripture with scripture. Isa. 28:9-13 says, "Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk...the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept...line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

Isa. 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; THEY SHALL MOUNT UP WITH WINGS AS EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

Psa. 103:1-5 says, "Bless the LORD, O my soul...Who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with lovingkindness and tender mercies; Who satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that THY YOUTH IS RENEWED LIKE THE EAGLE'S."

Type: Ex. 19:4: "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I BARE YOU ON EAGLES' WINGS, AND BROUGHT YOU UNTO MYSELF."

> > "Uttermost parts of heaven" could just as easily be seen as those who are, at that

I'm scratching my head, wondering what you might have meant by this. Agape

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