Pro and Con 472

Posted 3-25-00

Incoming email

I hope all is well with you and Ed. If possible, please add my mother-in-law to your prayer list. She's in South Coast Hospital with heart infection of some type. We're having trouble making her understand that the doctors and medicine are for her good, for some reason, she's putting up a fight over everything. We think she's upset to be in the hospital and just wants out. I'm sure we can understand that! Oh yes, her name is Charlotte.

My reply

Ed and I are ok. I agree with you to pray for your mother-in-law, Charlotte. A heart infection sounds serious. I know lots of others will pray for her too. Agape

Incoming email

You have been my impetus for the seminary in 1998-1999 and my run for Congress. Thank you soo much! The last three years have been the most arduous and joyfull of my life. I accepted Christ after finding your site while poking into Notradamus. Talk about a life changing experience. Praise the Lord! Shalom

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. It made my day. It makes all my hard work worth while. May the Lord bless you in every way. Agape

Incoming email

You may already be aware of this, but just in case you are not:
At the fall of man, death entered into the created order of things for the first time. In scripture, the number representing death is 23, (the sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin (13) is the law (10). Total 23.

It is interesting to note the following scientific facts:
a) that the earth is off it's axis by 23 degrees and
b) the human being has 23 chromosomes.

I believe that the earth was tilted as a result of the fall, and that the immortal body which clothed Adam was in some way altered structurally to sort of build in death in to the basic being.

On the question posed about whether the believers would have any firm assurance as to the day of the rapture, it is interesting to note that in the case of Elijah who was raptured, all the faithfull around him apparently knew that he was to be taken up from them on that day.........(do you not know that this day your master will be taken from you........)2 kings 2 .3 and again in verse 5. Also Elijah himself knew, (Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee) verse 9. See you soon.

My reply

You made a good point about Elijah. In the Book of Enoch, it says that he and his friends knew when he was to be taken up, but that is not Scripture. Agape

Incoming email

Re: ProCon 469
I just read your posting, responding to Mr. Conte. I marvel at your mind, and your ability to stay with a line of proof. I think Mr. Conte is more interested in proving himself to be right, than in discerning the truth that is in Jesus. His phrase: "hit me with your best shot" is from the world, not God. Keep up your faithful and steadfast work. I think that soon we shall see our beloved Saviour face to face. What joy!

Incoming email

Could you shed some light on the fact why with both The Ark of the Covenant and Noah's Ark, the same description is used to describe two absolutely different objects/pieces of equipment. Or is there a deeper meaning I am missing somewhere? Agape

My reply

It is clearer in the original language. In Gen. 6:14, Noah was told, "Make thee an ark (tebah, box)." Concerning the ark in the tabernacle, Ex. 25:10 says, "make an ark (arown, ark, chest, coffin)." Agape

Incoming email

Re: calendar patterns
Marilyn, please check out
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~spirit5/letters/mar2000/roshkodesh320.htm
which shows the amazing calendar coordination between the "Paschal Lamb in Exodus" and the "Crucifixion".

Please check the accuracy of his calendar dates and see if this amazing calendar pattern carries over into this year 2000. It would be a real confirmation that the rapture will really occur this Pentacost if the calendar dates pattern matches these earlier events.

Also, please check out http://www.millenngroup.com/repository/planetary/mars2.html which gives amazing information about the planetary alignments of the Sun, Moon, eight planets and at least 5 comets occurs on May 5, 2000. Wow! Could this be another confirmation of our soon coming Lord?! Blessings and Peace

My reply

I disagree with him about the calendar patterns he presented. He said,

> > First, let's start out by saying that virtually all Biblical scholars would place the Hebrew's exodus from Egypt anywhere within the years of 1281 B.C. through 1321 B.C

Not me. I think it was BC 1530 (2513 AH). My chronology is on my Web site. You can see how it is figured.

> > We are confident that Yeshua was crucified on Nisan 13 from the mention of release of a prisoner (on Nisan 13) to the Jews to honor Passover

I agree that the Crucifixion was on Nisan 13 in 30 AD. I think it was Thursday.

> > Thus we conclude from scripture and in a "mathematical" way that YESHUA arose on Saturday Shabbat

Sunday began at sundown the previous day. The whole night was already Sunday. I think the resurrection was on Sunday, the Feast of Firstfruits.

New subject: You said,
> > the planetary alignments of the Sun, Moon, eight planets and at least 5 comets occurs on May 5, 2000. Wow! Could this be another confirmation of our soon coming Lord?

Actually, there will be 6 planets plus the Sun and Moon--8 heavenly bodies. It is interesting that the candlestick used in the temple represented Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. All these will be in the lineup May 5.

A candlestick also represents a church group, and in Rev. 1:13, all seven candlesticks are seen around Christ in Heaven in the Preview of the Rapture. I do think this lineup is a sign. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit., constellations)" (Lu. 21:25). That pretty well describes this lineup. "And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh" (Lu. 21:28). These planets will be moving from Aries to Taurus.

An interesting conjuction is Saturn and Regulus on Aug. 29, 2007. I think Saturn is Heaven and Regulus is called the king star. I think Christ's Coronation is Sept. 13, 2007 (Tishri 1, 5768). Regulus is in the handle of the sickle in Leo. I think Sept. 13 will also be the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Rev. 14:14-16 says, "upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (the Lion of the tribe of Judah), having on his head A GOLDEN CROWN, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe." Agape

Incoming email

Does this sound like the Dan. 9 covenant to you?
FWD: London Times: "Syria and Israel have done 95 per cent of the work needed to complete a peace treaty that would effectively bring to a close Israel's 50-year conflict with all its Arab neighbors. With only three days to go before President Clinton meets President Assad for a summit in Geneva, there is growing speculation that a land-for-peace deal is now possible....much of the work detailing the Israeli withdrawal from the Golan Heights, in return for peace with Damascus, has been concluded in secret talks over the past few weeks. ...All sides agree that the basis of a deal must be in place by July, by which time Israel plans to withdraw all its forces from Lebanon...."

My reply

Hi: It sure is working toward it. The Sept. 13, 2000 date for the Final Status PeaceAgreement is what they are striving for.

Incoming email

Subject: Planet alignment and the Menorah
You wrote in a recent pro/con.......The grand lineup of the Sun and planets that the candlestick represented (Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn), plus the Moon and 5 comets will be an unusual occurrence. However, we will not be able to see it because the Sun's brightness will blank out the rest. We will be on the opposite side of the Sun from the other planets.

This reminds me of Rev 1:10-13 the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Verse 20 explains these things as the 7 angels (stars) of the 7 churches and the 7 churches (candlesticks) themselves. Could the alignment of these planets mean that a segment of these 7 churches ( the ones who repented) find themselves in heaven shortly after the alignment of these planets in May?

It seems reasonable to me that the rapture could follow fairly closely to the aligning of these planets. They are all in a line as they would be as if being placed in the menorah lamp stand. These are before Christ and John as he is in the spirit. This could be a major sign that our redemption is near. Have you considered this...
In Christ, Steve Shackleton

My reply

I uploaded the Pentecost file again to get rid of the duplication and added this reply:

Thanks Steve. Here is a bit more to think about.

The Dispensation of Law began at Sinai at the time of Pentecost The "LORD came down" (Ex. 19:20 The Dispensation of Law was cut short by 7 years on Pentecost, 30 AD (Dan. 9:26,27). The Seventieth Week of Daniel is still future. The clock is to start when the peace covenant is "confirmed" (Dan. 9:27).

The Dispensation of Grace began at Pentecost in 30 AD The Holy Spirit came down (Acts 2:4). Will the Dispensation of Grace be cut short by 7 years on Pentecost, 2000? At the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LORD will come down (I Thess. 4:16).

Things happened to Israel for examples. Paul said, "they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS (plural) of the ages are come" (I Cor. 10:11).

It seems that the ENDS of both of these Dispensations will start on The Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 2001 (Sivan 6, 5761), run concurrently, and end in a photo finish as the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord (probably Sept. 13, 2007; Tishri 1, 5768). At that time, the Sign of the Son of Man will be seen.

Now to answer this email. You said,
> > Could the alignment of these planets mean that a segment of these 7 churches ( the ones who repented) find themselves in heaven shortly after the alignment of these planets in May?

I think so. Luke 21:25 says, "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit. constellations). Verse 28 says, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." This lineup includes the Sun, the Moon, 6 planets and 5 comets. That is astonishing.

> > It seems reasonable to me that the rapture could follow fairly closely to the aligning of these planets. They are all in a line as they would be as if being placed in the menorah lamp stand.

They are not in the same order however. I take it that Josephus meant the order to be, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Since the western lamp was to be kept burning all the time, it seems obvious that it represented the Sun. Earth seems to have been in the middle, Saturn to the far east.

The order of this lineup has Earth on the other side of the Sun from the other planets.

> > These are before Christ and John as he is in the spirit. This could be a major sign that our redemption is near. Have you considered this

Yes. It seems significant. The candlesticks surround Christ in the Preview of the Rapture. The fact that these planets are moving from Aries to Taurus seems important too. These two pictures in the heavens overlap each other, and both represent Christ in different phases. The Lamb of God will also judge and thrust out of his Kingdom all that offend. Taurus is a untameable wild reem, charging.

In the diagram that came with Chris Patrick's "The Zodiac Conspiracy," the horn of Taurus touches the club of Orion, which touches the feet of both figures in Gemini. It looks like Gemini is the sign of the Rapture, when we are seated with the Lord in heavely places. This male and female are seated on the ecliptic, where the planets travel. The female figure on the right has the lyre, a symbol of the redeemed that sing a new song. Agape

Incoming email

I have several miscellaneous questions. In PC 470 in talking to the Post-trib. brother, you say,
>>>>"Is AFTER the Tribulation really what you mean? That would mean that the Church would go through the Day of God's Wrath on the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14)?"

Isn't the pre-wrath rapture of the tribulation saints also post-trib, since the 7 year tribulation is shortened to 2300 days? Matthew 24:29-31 clearly says, "29 Immediately after the tribulation . . . 30 shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: . . . 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

In another PC (I forget which one) you said that verse 31 does not convey a rapture but a gathering of the bride in heaven. I believe that the "gathering of the elect from the four winds" is the prewrath rapture and the phrase "from one end of heaven to another" is the gathering of the Bride in heaven. This is made clear in the parallel scripture in Mark 13 (as you well know). "27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." It is also interesting that in Revelation 7:1 it says, "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth". Although this verse does not indicate a rapture, it is interesting that the angels are placed in the position that they would be in to gather the trib. saints from the four winds. This verse is sandwiched between the description of the sign of the son of man (which correlates with Mat. 24:30) referred to a few verses before in Rev. 6:14 and the description of the tribulation saints in heaven in the rest of chapter 7 that follows. It seems logical that the angels hold the winds after they have already stirred up whirlwinds to catch up the tribulation saints. So don't you think that Mat. 24:31 refers to both the gathering of the trib. saints and the gathering of the Bride in heaven?

Now for a few other miscellaneous questions. In a previous PC you said that the saints that are a part of the sheaf that were resurrected right after Jesus was resurrected . . . never died. Is there any scriptural evidence that they were taken up at any time after their resurrection?

Now on another subject . . . The last trumpet in I Cor. 15:51 refers to the trump sounded at the pre-wrath rapture of the tribulation saints. You mentioned in one PC that the first trumpet was sounded when Moses was on Mt Sinai on Pentecost. Does that mean that the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the trump sounded at the rapture of the Bride, is not the first trump? Certainly there was a type and shadow of the rapture on Mt Sinai on Pentecost, but I still always thought that the 1 Thes. scripture was the first trump that was sounded because it was the first actual rapture with a trumpet.

While I'm on that subject, I view that the phrase "we which are alive" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers only to the Bride, not to every believer that is alive. "We" refers to a category of overcomers of which Paul, who wrote the passage, was one. Do you not agree?

The "we shall all be changed" phrase in 1 Cor. 15:51 has been taken to prove that there is not a second rapture by the masses that view this as a pre-trib rapture scripture. Since they say "all" would be resurrected or changed in what they believe is a pre-trib rapture, there cannot be another order of resurrection (ignoring 1 Cor. 15:23) later on. In reality, the "all" refers to all of the body of Christ left on the earth to be raptured before the wrath of God hits. Since there are so many pre-wrath, post-trib scriptures like Mat. 24;29-31, it seems that the "all" is proof that this has to refer to the rapture of the trib. saints (along with the fact that it mentions the last trump). Do you not agree?
Thanks for your wisdom. Your Brother in Jesus

My reply

> > Isn't the pre-wrath rapture of the tribulation saints also post-trib, since the 7 year tribulation is shortened to 2300 days? Matthew 24:29-31 clearly says, "29 Immediately after the tribulation . . . 30 shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: . . . 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It is sort of a matter of semantics. If we think of the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation as the whole Tribulation, the Pre-Wrath Rapture would be post-Trib. Mt. 24:29 is worded carefully. Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of THOSE DAYS." I think that is referring to the 2300-day section.

The whole Tribulation is 7 years (Dan. 9:27). The 1260 days of Rev. 11:3 + the 1260 days of Rev. 12:6 = 2520 days. After the first day of the Millennium, 2300 days of the Tribulation are past and 220 days are still future.

What hits Earth after the Pre-Wrath Rapture is far worse than "the tribulation of THOSE DAYS" that preceded it. The 7 trumpet judgments all hit Earth that day. Both asteroid pieces (Rev. 8:8,10) impact Earth. The "cities of the nations" fall (Rev. 16:19). Every wall falls in the worldwide earthquake (Eze. 38:20). So few men survive that a child could write their number (Isa. 10:19). And the vials that fill up the wrath of God are still to come.

When "the great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5), "the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died" (Rev. 8:8,9). After some more time has gone by, at the second vial, the sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea" (Rev. 16:3). After the bottomless pit is opened, there will be 5 months when men will seek death and not find it (Rev. 9:6). There will be bodies everywhere. Only in Israel will they be buried (Eze. 39:12). Those will be days of desperation as have never been experienced since there was a nation. Civilization as we know it will have been destroyed. That is extreme tribulation.

> > you said that verse 31 does not convey a rapture but a gathering of the bride in heaven. I believe that the "gathering of the elect from the four winds" is the prewrath rapture and the phrase "from one end of heaven to another" is the gathering of the Bride in heaven. This is made clear in the parallel scripture in Mark 13

I see what you mean. Since Mk. 13:27 says, "gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven," the four winds can be associated with the Pre-Wrath Rapture. I just didn't think of that, and did not see Earth mentioned in Mt. 24:31. We are supposed to put them together to get the full picture too.

> > So don't you think that Mat. 24:31 refers to both the gathering of the trib. saints and the gathering of the Bride in heaven?

Yes, now that you showed me how the four winds could tie in. Thanks for showing me.

> > Now for a few other miscellaneous questions. In a previous PC you said that the saints that are a part of the sheaf that were resurrected right after Jesus was resurrected . . . never died. Is there any scriptural evidence that they were taken up at any time after their resurrection?

We are not told point blank, but kind of have to read in between the lines. Jesus waited awhile on Resurrection Day before he ascended to the Father and returned. I think this was so the ones that came out of their graves could appear to people in Jerusalem. Jesus could not be touched early (Jn. 20:17 ) and could be touched later on in the day (Mt. 28:9). "Eph. 4:8-10 says, "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" It seems to me that he not only took Paradise to Heaven, but also took those that came out of their graves to Heaven that day. They are not mentioned again, so I don't think they hung around for 40 days.

> > You mentioned in one PC that the first trumpet was sounded when Moses was on Mt Sinai on Pentecost. Does that mean that the trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the trump sounded at the rapture of the Bride, is not the first trump?

I think the trumpet at Sinai was a type of the first trump at the Rapture. It was the first trumpet of the Bible, and was called "the voice of the trumpet" in Ex. 19:16. In I Thess. 4:16, it is different, being called "the trump of GOD." I think it is the first trump of God.

> > I view that the phrase "we which are alive" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 refers only to the Bride, not to every believer that is alive. "We" refers to a category of overcomers of which Paul, who wrote the passage, was one. Do you not agree?

I agree. Some have asked about the dead in Christ. Knowing that the Lord is perfectly just, I think those that were like foolish virgins in their lifetime will be raised with the living foolish virgins. What do you think?

> > In reality, the "all" refers to all of the body of Christ left on the earth to be raptured before the wrath of God hits. Since there are so many pre-wrath, post-trib scriptures like Mat. 24;29-31, it seems that the "all" is proof that this has to refer to the rapture of the trib. saints (along with the fact that it mentions the last trump). Do you not agree?

It can have that meaning, but "all" can also mean that by that time all the elect are in Heaven. It also may be that we all become immortal on that day. We have been awarded immortality, but may actually receive it that day. See what you think on that. Agape

Incoming email

In PC 470 in the letter to the post-trib. brother you say,

>>>>"John was on Patmos, which means mortal. He was mortal, then suddenly became in the Spirit and found himself in Heaven. The Rapture took place in verse 10." Didn't you mean verse 1? Your brother in Jesus

My reply

In the Preview of the Rapture in Rev. 1, verses 9 and 10 say, "I John...was in the isle that is called Patmos (mortal, suggesting the role he is playing)...I was (lit., became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." He found himself in Heaven. Christ, the 7 churches and the 7 star performers were there too.

Then in 4:1, the real Rapture takes place. John said " the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me." This is the "great voice, as of a trumpet" of 1:10. This is the "trump of God" of I Thess. 4:16. In Rev. 4:1, we find that this voice as of a trumpet says, "Come up hither." We can be sure that "Come up hither" indicates ascension, because Moses and Elijah hear the same words and ascend in Mid-Trib.

When the 24 elders are seen on their thrones, it is neat to realize that John will be seated among them. He is one of the 24 elders. I think 12 are the patriarchs of Israel and 12 are the apostles. Agape

Incoming email

From: Jim Bramlett: Re: 2,000 cubits
We recently discussed the Israelites crossing the Jordan in Joshua 4:19, symbolic of our crossing over into the Promised Land when Jesus comes for us.

The priests carrying the Ark of the Covenant were instructed to go before the people. You may recall that the people were required to stay behind the Ark by a distance of "about 2,000 cubits " (3:4).

The Ark was where God's presence was on the earth. When Jesus first came, He was God's presence in the earth.

In Joshua's day, the people could not enter the Promised Land until 2,000 cubits behind God's presence.

Could the 2,000 cubits represent 2,000 years, the length of time we follow God's presence in the earth (Jesus) into the Promised Land?

There are 17.6 inches in one cubit. The distance of 2,000 cubits = almost 1,000 yards (ten football fields), or over a half mile. That is a very long distance for such a situation. In meditating on this, it became obvious that the 2,000-cubit distance God required was not arbitrary. Nothing He does nor any number He uses is arbitrary. He could have prescribed 1,000 cubits, or 2,500 cubits, or 3,200 cubits. For this reason, im view of all the many signs, I believe that the 2,000 cubits do, indeed = 2,000 years. Just a thought...Jim
"The World's Greatest Truths" at: http://www.geocities.com/bramlett2000

My reply

From what point in time would you measure the "about" 2000 years? Would when the wise men visited Jesus and gave him gifts that showed that he was both king and priest make sense? The priests were carrying the Ark. Agape, Marilyn
"Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching" (Lu. 12:37).

Incoming email

Re: The Second Coming of Christ
Let me start by saying that I am your brother in Christ and I think the work you're doing is excellent.

I am currently in a debate with a few people who argue against the Bible's accuracy. I was hoping that you could send me a few (or preferably, a lot) of cases in history outside of the Bible that were accuratly predicted by the authors. I know of the Sign of the End Times and Israel becoming a nation again, but are there many others? I am trying to win a few souls over to Christ and I feel that any information you can provide would be tremendously helpful.

Your fellow Christian who is praying for you,

P.S. Have you read "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel? Excellent book on the reliability of the Bible.

My reply

In Mt. 23:36, Jesus told the Pharisees that "All these things shall come upon this generation." They did, in 70 AD. What is so amazing is that from Nisan 9 (Palm Sunday) to Av 10, when Jerusalem was burned was 40 years, plus another 120 days from Nisan 9 to Av 10.

In our days, from when Israel took all of Jerusalem in 1967, it looks like there will be 40 years, plus another 120 days from Iyar 28 to Tishri 1, 5768, when I think the great catastrophe, the asteroid impacts of Rev. 8:8,10, will cause widespread wildfires upon this generation mentioned in the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34.

No, I haven't read the book you mentioned. All of God's prophecies have come true 100%. That is enough to convince me right there. Agape

Incoming email

Wow what a site. Have not gone through much of it as there is much there. Keep up the good work!

My reply

Thanks. I may have written more on my Web site than in my three books. I haven't time to figure it up. Agape

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