Pro and Con 475

Posted 3-29-00

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Subject: thought you would like to see this
http://www.prophetic.net/firepix.htm

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...I found your website Saturday night & spent many hours reading it & found it very informative & fascinating!! I am a Born Again, Spirit Filled, Believer (non-denominational---as denominations were mans idea not Gods but was formerly a Baptist). I would like to ask you where I can find "the Book of Enoch"

***From Marilyn: Try http://www.takeitbyforce.com/enoch.htm

as I have tried to study Enoch & the Bible just doesn't tell us much about him. I have tried christian bookstores but all I could find was "the Lost Books of the Bible" & it was very questionable so I didnt read it any further. Your info on Enoch was very informitive so apparently you have read this book.

I didn't disagree with anything you said but I would like to challenge your view on who the Bride of Christ is (as I was challenged in this area myself & studied to prove a minister wrong who said, "the church is NOT the Bride!" & backed himself up with scripture). I got out my Strongs concordance & looked up every passage that contained the word "Bride" & studied them & also the Holy Spirit led me to some others....I ended up proving to myself that this minister was RIGHT not wrong, so I had to change MY thinking in this area. The "Bride of Christ" is the Holy City Jerusalem, not the church.

***Surely you jest. I hope you don't really think that Christ is going to marry a physical city, devoid of people, and one that is about 1500 miles across. That would be hard to walk down the aisle with. To me, a bride being a city makes as much sense as Christ literally being the morning star, a mountain literally being a kingdom, seven heads literally being seven mountains, and one woman literally sitting on seven mountains. :-)

***There are some things that are to be taken symbolically. In Rev. 22:16, Christ said, "I am...the bright and morning star," because he lives on a planet that at the time of the spring Rapture will be a bright and morning star. (It is an evening star in the fall.) In Rev. 2:28, Jesus told the churches, "I will give him the morning star." He is not talking about himself, but of Heaven, where his throne is located. These believers already have the Spirit of Christ himself in their hearts.

***A mountain symbolizes a kingdom. Rev. 17:9 says, The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth." The seven heads are "seven kings" (v. 10). The seven mountains are the kingdoms or empires of these 7 kings. The woman represents the harlot church. She is present during each of 7 empires.

Here are some reference scriptures : Rev. 19:7-9 the "bride" is ADORNED with the righteousness of the saints (which can only be obtained by accepting Jesus as Lord) so we (the church) are the "wedding gown" so to speak of the "bride"

***The Bride is clothed with white robes which represent the literal "righteousnesses" (in the Greek) of saints. These righteousnesses include both the righteousness imparted to us when we accept Christ and our own righteous acts, which include things like washing our robes to make them white in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14). Oh gee, wonder why they come out white when washed in something red? :-)

Rev. 21:2-3&7 "HE", (those who overcome---the church---BODY of Christ) will be my SON... the church is a "HE" so it cannot be the "bride". (also see II Thess.2:6,7 where the church is referred to as a "HE")

***Gal. 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Rev. 21:9&10 HOLY CITY JERUSALEM is clearly stated to be "THE BRIDE"

***On the 12 gates are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. They are 12 elders that are the Representatives (as in Congress) of the OT people that made it into the bride group. On the wall are 12 foundations. They have on them the names of the 12 apostles. They are the Representatives of the NT people that make it into the bride group. The people that the 24 elders represent live in the city. Rev. 3:12 says, I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem." If the name of New Jerusalem is written on us, we will live there.

Rev. 22:17 if the church were the bride how can the Spirit & the "church" say "COME" to itself? (this is the calling up TO the church to attend the marriage supper) This is the Spirit & JERUSALEM that say "come" TO the church BODY.

***Rev. 22:17 says, "And the Spirit (Holy Spirit) and the bride (Bride of Christ) say (to the unsaved), Come. And let him that heareth (and are saved) say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will (come), let him take the water of life (the baptism of the Holy Spirit when they accept Christ) freely."

Gal. 4:22-26 we (the church BODY) are SONS & Jerusalem is our MOTHER (which I believe to be a "type" for the Heavenly Kingdom of which we are BORN of! [Col. 1:13] also see verses 5-7) if we are Jesus' BODY how can we be "female" (as a "bride" signifies) Jesus' BODY is the same gender as His HEAD (MALE- for Jesus is not "bi-sexual")

***Gal. 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Now I realize what Ephesians 5:23-32 states but I would call your attention to verses 30-32 where he is comparing the UNITY of Christ to his BODY just as man & woman are UNITED in marriage & once they are they are considered to be ONE FLESH!!!! It is NOT saying that the church is the wife or bride but rather is UNITED together with Christ!!! We are now ONE FLESH with HIM & therefore are the same Gender as HIM!

***Gal. 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Any time you see Bride it is always giving us a Human perspective of understanding the UNITY. The main reason this is important to understand is if you see yourself as a female or wife you can only see yourself as a "weaker vessel" not a KING & A PRIEST (which were ALWAYS males in the Bible)

***Both believing men and women are part of the Bride of Christ, and both are kings and priests.

& you will not see yourself as an OVERCOMER IN CHRIST!! He has called us to REIGN IN LIFE AS KINGS & PRIESTS!!!! Of course we cannot do anything without our HEAD who IS Christ---just as a wife should not do anything without her husbands agreement!! This is merely put to us in Ephesians 5 in terms we can relate to to help us understand the "mystery" of the UNITY TO CHRIST. ONE FLESH OF HIS BODY & HIS BONES!!!!! Once I realized all of this I began to see myself in a much better light & no longer beaten down in life by a "weaker sex" mentality!! Now I am a true OVERCOMER IN CHRIST JESUS!!!! (The PHYSICAL body does not operate without the HEAD just as Christ does not want US operating without HIM)!! We are to be in subjection (under authority) to HIM. Here is a cool definition of the word "submission" that I heard a great minister give: SUB= under & MISSION= duty on which one is sent; so therefore we are to be UNDER the MISSION of Christ!!! Under the same duty HE was sent for--to preach the GOSPEL (good news)!!!!

I am sorry if I took up all your time but just thought you might find all this informative, just as I found your web-site VERY informative & helpful to me!!! I Praise Our Lord & ABBA FATHER for your persistent study!!!

I would appreciate any help you can give me on the Book of Enoch information. Thank you for your time. Your sister IN CHRIST JESUS

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Subject: rapture
When the Bible talks about his coming being like lightning, is it referring to the rapture? Also, as to timing, doesn't it say the Lord may tarry? Couldn't he tarry as long as he wants? 100 yrs., 200 yrs., etc.? Although there is that passage about a generation after the leaves spring forth, the leaves springing forth may not refer to the year 1967---that is, of course, a matter of interpretation. Also, have you heard that in May/June of this year Mars may be impacted by a comet or asteroid, I can.t remember which. However, only Nasa will be able to observe the event since Mars will be on the other side of the sun. What do you think of a continous rapture theory after the pre-trib. rapture? By that I mean that those who are not of the 144,000 will be raptured the moment they become spiritually ready.( I aks because believers are not appointed to wrath, which is what they would experience if they continued to live in Trib. period until a mid-trib. rapture.) Hence the Revelation passage about those coming out of the Great Tribulation. Do you think the 5 foolish virgins may refer to those who did not accept the Gospel until after the Pre-trib. rapture when they could have accepted it before then? One reason I ask is that some Bible scholars believe All believers will be raptured. Don't worry about answering everything---this is a long and rambling letter.

Ps--Do you think people's pets will go with them? Many will probably wonder about this.

My reply

> > When the Bible talks about his coming being like lightning, is it referring to the rapture?

Mt. 24:27 is talking about the Second Advent, when he returns in glory.

> > there is that passage about a generation after the leaves spring forth, the leaves springing forth may not refer to the year 1967---that is, of course, a matter of interpretation

To me, the parable could not be fulfilled after Israel was past 19 years of age. It says, "When his branch (klados, scion broken off for grafting into its old rootstock) is yet tender (apalos, young, i.e., no more than 19, as when they came out of Egypt)." Israel was 19 in 1967.

Mars could be impacted by a comet if its magnetic field is strong enough to change the orbit of the comet. It is coming in close by astronomical standards. Earth will be on the other side of the Sun at the time.

> What do you think of a continous rapture theory after the pre-trib. rapture?

I think those left behind the first time will have to wait until the first day of the Millennium to be caught up.

> I aks because believers are not appointed to wrath

The Day of God's Wrath is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. I think the Rapture takes place between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals, just before God's Wrath hits Earth. God's wrath comes with the seven trumpet judgments that hit after the seventh seal is broken.

> Do you think the 5 foolish virgins may refer to those who did not accept the Gospel

I think the 5 foolish ones are believers--the Laodiceans. Otherwise, they would not be called virgins.

> some Bible scholars believe All believers will be raptured.

Not me. The 5 foolish virgins are left behind. The Laodiceans are spewed out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16).

I don't know about pets we have now, but there will be no lions in Heaven. Isa. 35:9 says, "No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast." That might leave room for tame animals in Heaven, but I sort of doubt that they come from the Earth. Agape

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The Electronic Telegraph reported: "A Bible scholar believes that he has found the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah, the evil cities destroyed by God with fire and brimstone, after leading the first expedition to explore the bottom of the Dead Sea. Michael Sanders and an international team of researchers discovered what appear to be the salt-encrusted remains of ancient settlements on the seabed after several fraught weeks diving in a mini submarine.He said: 'The evidence cannot be ignored. I predicted there must be something extraordinary there and, lo and behold, there was. What we found matches exactly what the remains of an ancient city might look like.' Dr John Whitaker, a geologist from Leicester University and the former editor of Geology Today, said yesterday that the new development - which will be unveiled in a television documentary tomorrow - appeared 'very significant'. He said: 'There is a good chance that these mounds are covering up brick structures and are one of the lost cities of the plains, possibly even Sodom or Gomorrah, though I would have to examine the evidence. These Bible stories were handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation before they were written down, and there seems to be a great deal in this one.' God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to punish the sexual immorality of their inhabitants is one of the most graphic episodes in the Old Testament. Genesis says that 'the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground'..."

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Subject: heaven found I wanted to know why you thought heaven was saturn because the sientist are telling us that if you landed on this planet you would sink and its very cold there . Thanks I think that if it is heaven well that would be awsome!

My reply

I named my book Heaven Found: A Butter and Honey Star, because in a closeup view, the planet looks so much like a butterball brushed with honey as it turns.

From Earth, on a clear night, with the naked eye, it glows with pearl-white light. It moves very slowly (it is the slowest of the planets) along the ecliptic, the apparent path of the sun among the stars. This eliminates a lot of heavenly bodies that do not trace the sun's path. Besides the Sun and Moon, there are only 5 naked-eye objects that shine brighter than most of the stars and yet travel in front of the seemingly stationary background stars. Although easily visible to the unaided eye, Heaven has not been seen by everyone. It is far from the Earth and is not the brightest spot of light in the sky. It is the 3rd brightest planet, though. Heaven is wrapped in thick golden clouds, which may be why the streets are golden. This clue alone tells us where Heaven is located.

In the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek scriptures used in Jesus' time, Job 36:32; 37:3 and 37:18-22 make this clear. It says, "He has hidden the light in his hands, and given charge concerning it to the interposing cloud...His dominion is under the whole heaven, and his light is at the extremities of the earth (so his light reaches Earth). Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heavens?...But the light is NOT VISIBLE TO ALL; IT SHINES AFAR OFF IN THE HEAVENS, as that which is from him in the clouds. From the north (upward) come the CLOUDS SHINING LIKE GOLD (i.e., visible): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty." Saturn has golden clouds.

Paul gave us a good clue to where Heaven is located in 2 Cor. 12:2-4. When you read on a few verses, you can see that Paul was the man caught up to Heaven. Here is what he said, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man...How that he was caught up into PARADISE." Counting from Earth, Mars would be the first heaven farther from the Sun than we are, Jupiter, the second, and Saturn the third.

Psa. 78:69 says that the Lord "built his sanctuary (tabernacle) like high palaces (planets), LIKE THE EARTH" (a planet). Psa. 89:36,37 speaks of David's seed, which is Christ. It says, "His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne AS THE SUN before me. It shall be established for ever AS THE MOON, and as a faithful witness (i.e., it is visible) in heaven." What is the common denominator here? The Sun, Moon and Earth are all in our solar system. Therefore, Heaven is a planet in our solar system.

In the LXX, Job 38:37,38 says, "(Who) is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has BOWED THE HEAVEN...to the earth? For it (Heaven) is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, and I have cemented it as one hewn stone to another." It sounds like it was formed by coalescence.

Heaven has a bow like a rainbow around it. Eze. 1:26-28 says, "And above the firmament (expanse of space) that was over their heads (farther out in space than the 4 terrestrial planets) was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone." Sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn, from the Sanscrit Sani, Saturn, and priya, dear. And "upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber (the golden clouds), as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even upward, and from the appearance of his loins (from the equator) even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about (the rings). As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about." Both Saturn's rings and our rainbows are usually formed from sunlight on ice crystals.

Sapphire is a symbol of Heaven. We think of it as blue, but it can also be yellow. When Moses saw God on Mt. Sinai, which represented Heaven, he saw "under his feet as it were a paved work of A SAPPHIRE STONE, and as it were the BODY OF HEAVEN (heavenly body) in his clearness (tohar, glory)."

In Zech 3:9,10 (LXX), the Lord says, "behold, I bring forth my servant The Branch (Christ). For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes" (orbs, i.e., rings). Saturn has seven rings. In the original planetary lineup, Saturn was the 7th planet, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab (now the Asteroid Belt), Jupiter, then Saturn. According to Josephus, the seven lamps on the candlestick in the temple stood for the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Again, Saturn was #7.

In Eze. 28:13 (KJV), the Lord is talking to Satan as the king of Tyre (the rock). He used to live on the planet Rahab until, because of his sin, it was split apart. Now, he lives on an asteroid, a piece of Rahab, a rock. This passage says, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God (both heavenly and earthly Edens); every precious stone (i.e., planet) was they covering (surroundings), the sardus, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the SAPPHIRE (#7), the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold." An interesting sidelight is verse 16. It says, "I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God (#7): and I will destroy thee, O covering (guarding, Gen. 3:24) cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." He was driven from the planet Rahab, and as the Millennium begins, his asteroid will impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10). It is the "flaming sword" placed to the east of Eden in Gen. 3:24. As the world turns, all heavenly bodies rise in the east.

Do you need more? Just knowing that Heaven is the 3rd heaven should tell you where it is located.

Also, see file at: http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/hf.html

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Re: more on when we become immortal
The scriptures you gave are all great and they do point to a 7 year period. It is without question that there is a 7 year period and there is no doubt there is tremendous adversity throughout all 7 years. My point that there is no scripture that labels it "the tribulation" by name was unimportant. People everywhere, including me call the 7 year period "the tribulation". What is important is defining what one means by "the tribulation" and who is being referred to as being, as we say in the Ozarks, "tribulated". The world is in tribulation for 7 years both from the wrath of Satan and God. The shortened tribulation is the wrath of Satan being imposed on the tribulation saints. That is the one that is being referred to in Matthew 24:29, that begins, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . ." The phrase "of those days" may distinguish it from the 7 years of tribulation that the world experiences, but the important thing is that the tribulation referred to in this verse is in reference to the tribulation saints . The term post-tribulation rapture is in reference to "the tribulation" the saints are going through, not the total period of "tribulation" that the world will go through. Verse 22 says that the days of tribulation are shortened "for the elect's sake".

I still think that the tribulation that the world experiences during the last 7 and a half months is from God and not Satan. I know that you pointed out the one instance in the blowing of the trumpets in Revelation that the locusts (demons) were released from the bottomless pit. Just because demons were the agent, does not mean that this was not "from God". Obviously, God opened the pit with a purpose.

Verse 2 says, "And he (the angel of God) opened the bottomless pit."
Verse 4 says, "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

Who "commanded" and determined who was to be hurt and who couldn't be hurt? . . . obviously God. So although the demons did the tormenting, it was the wrath of God that dictated to them, not Satan.

Isaiah 54:17 says that "and I (God) have created the waster to destroy." The source of even this part of the wrath that utilizes demon spirits, is God.

In your response you said,
>>>>The question in my mind is this. Is an incorruptible spiritual body already immortal? or does an incorruptible spiritual body become immortal at the last trump? In other words, do all of us that are parts of the Body of Christ become immortal at the same instant in time? or do we become immortal in ranks?

In I Cor. 15:51-53, Paul said, "Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep (i.e., some will be raptured without having to die), but we shall ALL be CHANGED, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be CHANGED (allasso, made different). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, AND this MORTAL MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY." Can you think of other scriptures that would shed light on this?

***Right off the top of my head no scripture comes to mind, but I think the one you quoted is pretty clear. In the last sentence I don't think that the AND in the sentence makes the "corruptible putting on incorruption" a different event than the "mortal putting on immortality". I could say that I am going to run in the race AND I am going to run fast. Both phrases refer to the same event. I believe the phrases in this verse, "the dead shall be raised incorruptible", "all be changed" and "this mortal shall put on immortality" . . . all refer to the same thing. Think about it. If your body is incorruptible, . . . can never be corrupted, . . . it is immortal by the very definition of immortality. Obviously our spirits are already immortal.

Your web site is the only one I have ever bothered to respond to. Most other prophetic sites are not open to the truth, because they are too busy defending their position. You are very sure of your beliefs because of your many years of study, but I know through our correspondence that you are still open to modify your statements as you see new evidence in the Word of God. You, like me, are a disciple that is ever learning. I greatly admire someone, as yourself, who I know has an abundance of knowledge, has written 3 excellent books, but who is still humble enough to admit that "they still have questions" when it comes to some prophetic issues. The Word may say that we see through a glass darkly, but it seems the closer His return is, the clearer our prophetic vision is becoming.

Thanks again for your wisdom. Your brother in Jesus

My reply

> > I still think that the tribulation that the world experiences during the last 7 and a half months is from God and not Satan.

I think you're right about the last 7.5 months still being the wrath of God. The seven trumpet judgments are cast on Earth on the Day of God's Wrath, but the seven vails fill up the wrath of God over the remainder of the 7 years.

You read me well. I am ever learning, ever searching to know more, ever ready to change my view if I can see otherwise in Scripture. All I want is to understand as much as possible of what is written for us. I certainly don't know everything and don't have any pet theory to defend, either. I just want to find out as much as I possibly can, and if the Bible says something, I believe it and start from there. This exchange of ideas by email has been great for me. I have learned things from others. It is as if no one person sees it all. We each have a special area of interest, and that the Lord has given us insight into. By sharing our ideas, we all come out winners. Agape and God bless

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Re: ancient jewish tabernacle I have tried to follow all of the pro-cons as they come up. You have made this subject so fascinating, I just can't stop thinking about it. Would you please do an explanation of the covering in the tabernacle that represents the sky and explain the layout and order of planets and other objects. I've noticed many other people have caught on to the fact that the sun, moon, and planets that are aligning right now(I believe) are the same as those in the covering. Am I wrong?

Thank you again for serving God the way you have. Can't wait to see you in Heaven. I have a feeling you will be in dire need of crowd control.(Ha-Ha) Agape

My reply

The curtain in the Tabernacle was made up of a 5-width section coupled to another 5-width section. There were originally 10 planets (cherubim), each was represented by one width upon which cherubim were embroidered. Starting from the back of the Tabernacle, I think they represented Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Rahab (now the Asteroid Belt), Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Two and a half widths hung down in the back. This made the width that represented Earth the one that was half on the top and half folded down over the back upper edge of the Tabernacle. That is why Christ is to be made head of the CORNER, Mk. 12:10. The corner represented Earth.

According to Josephus, the lampstand represented the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn, all the naked-eye planets.

Since the western lamp was to always be kept lit, I think it represented the Sun. Thus, Saturn was the eastern lamp, "the third heaven" from Earth, as in II Cor. 12:2.

The planetary lineup coming up May 5 includes in order, left to right, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, Sun, Moon and Earth (on the opposite side of the Sun from the other planets). If you just consider the Sun and planets, not the Moon--a satellite, they are the same ones represented by the lampstand.

See Bob Wadsworth's interesting article on Biblical Astronomy at: http://www.atlbible.org/astronomy/00apr.htm The following will give you a taste of what you will find. Apr. 6 caught my eye, because I think the Crucifixion and Second Advent happen on Apr. 6 on our calendar. I don't agree with Bob's dates, or the "Saturn (Satan)" he mentions. However, his astronomy is very interesting. ---
April 06 - Jupiter/Mars/Moon conjunction in Aries

April 11 - Jupiter/Mars/Saturn Massing in Aries

April 16 - Mars/Saturn/Menkar conjunction

April 19/20 - Jupiter/Mars/Saturn Massing in Aries
(Passover/Feast of Unleavened Bread)

April 28 - Venus/Mercury conjunction (very close,
Passing within of a degree) in Pisces ---
Notice that these are in PISCES, which I think represents the wise and foolish virgins, connected to the Lamb of God (ARIES) by a band One fish is going north swiftly toward the King (CEPHEUS). The other larger fish is going back to AQUARIUS for more living water (Holy Spirit). On May 5, all those planets will be on their way out of ARIES and into TAURUS. Both ARIES and TAURUS represent Christ in different phases. That is why they overlap.

The star MENKAR (THE CHAINED ENEMY) is in the mouth of CETUS, which is the second decan of ARIES, and represents Satan. The Egyptians called this constellation KNEM (SUBDUED), a fitting name.

It will be fun meeting people I have exchanged email with. We should know more then than we do now. That will be exciting too. Agape


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