James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." I know that there is no mention of the tribulation saints having crowns in the scenes showing the tribulation saints in Revelation 7 and 15, yet this verse mentions those that endure temptation or tribulation which could point to the tribulation saints. On the other hand, it says that the crown is promised to those that agape Him, which could point to the Bride (or I guess the tribulation saints could agape as well- I'm thinking out loud). And it seems that the crown of life should be given to both groups since they both have eternal life.
Do you agree that the crown of glory (also can be translated praise or honor) is given to the Bride at the rapture and the crown of righteousness is for the Bride to be presented at the judgment seat of Christ? Do you think the crown of life mentioned in James 1:12 is for the Bride or the tribulation saints? Do you have a clue as to when it is given? Do you know of any other crowns that the Bride will receive?
Thanks for your thoughts. Your Brother in Jesus
> > To me the receipient of the crown of glory in 1 Peter 5:4 is the Bride because the passage is written to the elders.
I Peter 5:1,4,6: "The ELDERS (12 apostles, half of the elders of Rev. 4:4) which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder...and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed (unveiled)...when the chief Shepherd shall appear (manifest), ye shall receive a CROWN OF GLORY that fadeth not away....Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in DUE TIME" (i.e., at the Pre-Trib Rapture). I agree with you.
> > The receipient of the crown of righteousness in 2 Timothy 4:8 is also the Bride because it is said to those who "love His appearing".
II Tim. 4:7,8: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at THAT DAY (the Pre-Trib Rapture): and not to me only, but unto ALL them also that love his appearing" (epiphany). I agree with you.
II Tim. 2:5,6 says, "if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he NOT CROWNED, except he strive lawfully. The husbandman that laboureth must be FIRST PARTAKER OF THE FRUITS."
> > James 1:12 says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him...it seems that the crown of life should be given to both groups since they both have eternal life.
Jas. 1:1,-4,18 says, "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad...My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be PERFECT AND ENTIRE, WANTING NOTHING....Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND OF FIRSTFRUITS of his creatures." I think this applies to the Bride. Remember the 144,000 out of the Tribulation are also "virgins" and "firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:4). The "twelve tribes" of Jas. 1:1 ties in with the 12 tribes of Rev. 7. I could be wrong, but, since no crowns are mentioned for the 144,000, I think it more likely that only those ready by the time of the first Rapture get crowns. All believers get eternal life, which is a free gift, but maybe not these crowns, which are earned. Rev. 2:10 says, "ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN OF LIFE." This is awarded at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> > Do you agree that the crown of glory (also can be translated praise or honor) is given to the Bride at the rapture and the crown of righteousness is for the Bride to be presented at the judgment seat of Christ?
It looks to me like both are awarded at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> > Do you think the crown of life mentioned in James 1:12 is for the Bride or the tribulation saints? Do you have a clue as to when it is given?
It seems to be for the Bride and awarded at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
> > Do you know of any other crowns that the Bride will receive?
I Cor. 9:24-28 says, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the PRIZE (the Pre-Trib Rapture)? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible CROWN; BUT WE AN INCORRUPTIBLE. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."
Phil. 3:11-14 goes with this. It says, "If by any means I might attain unto the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the PRIZE OF THE HIGH CALLING OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS" (the "Come up hither" of Rev. 4:1, the Pre-Trib Rapture).
Phil. 4:1 says, "Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and CROWN, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved." This sounds like the soul-winner's crown, a crown of rejoicing. I Thess. 2:19,20 says, "For what is our hope, or joy, or CROWN OF REJOICING? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming (parousia)? For ye are our glory and joy." I think it is given at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
Rev. 3:11 says, "Behold, I come quickly (at the Pre-Trib Rapture): hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy CROWN."
The 24 elders (12 patriarchs of Israel and 12 apostles) are seated on thrones and have "on their heads CROWNS OF GOLD" right after the Pre-Trib Rapture. They represent all the saints "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." And thou "hast made us unto our God KINGS AND PRIESTS" (Rev. 5:9,10). And the elders "fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their CROWNS before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power" (Rev. 5:10,11).
That is for sure. Without him, we could do nothing.
I can't find any crowns mentioned for any but those participating in the Pre-Trib Rapture, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of someone meriting a crown later. The Lord is always fair, and general rules can have exceptions. We will get what we deserve, but "The husbandman that laboureth must be FIRST PARTAKER OF THE FRUITS." Agape and blessings
I ASKED - > > What is the correlation between "even at the DOORS" (plural) in Matthew 24:33 and "TIMES (plural) of the Gentiles" in Luke 21:24?
YOU REPLIED - Door is a symbol of the Rapture, Rev. 3:8; 4:1. There are two Raptures, hence two doors. A "time" is a year (Rev. 12:6:14). Therefore, times are years.
MY FURTHER COMMENT - Since there are two Raptures, hence two DOORS as stated in Matthew 24:33, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the DOORS." likewise, Could there possibly be two specific TIMES (Years) for the Gentiles as stated in Luke 21:24 "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled."? Maranatha!!
Isa. 24:1-6 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest...The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore hath THE CURSE devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and FEW MEN LEFT."
The first day of the Millennium is the day of "thick darkness" (Joel 2:1-3). It is not the day of the Second Advent. There are 7 months while the Israelites bury the dead bodies to cleanse the land for the Lord's glorious return (Eze. 39:12).
Continuing in Zech 14, verse 4 picks up the story after the 7 months. It says, "And his feet shall stand in that day (Nisan 1, the first day of the Regnal and Sacred year) upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall COME, AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE." I think this will be Nisan 1, Apr. 6, 2008. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be KNOWN to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea (the Mediterranean), and half of them toward the hinder sea (Dead Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be. And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." Agape
>>>Rev. 2:10 says, "ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a CROWN OF LIFE." This is awarded at the Pre-Trib Rapture.
I know that we said that for sure this crown of life is given to the Bride, but if you look at this verse, doesn't it intimate that "those that will have tribulation" and those that are "faithful unto death" (the martyrs in the tribulation) will be given this crown of life as well. Combined with the phrase in verse 18 which says, "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation (endureth tribulation): for when he is tried (during the tribulation of those days), he shall receive the crown of life"...it sure looks like the tribulation saints get this crown as well. And as I mentioned before, the name "crown of life" sure sounds like it has something to do with the reward of eternal life, which both groups will merit.
***From Marilyn: To me, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture. It seems possible that the Rapture is "at hand" (1:3; 22:10) on the anniversary of Christ's ascension and takes place 10 days later, on Pentecost. In other words, the "open door" of 3:8 could open on Ascension Day and close on Pentecost. If so, Rev. 2:10's ten days would fit perfectly.
***I don't think Jesus is talking to the Tribulation saints in these 7 messages. He is talking to "the churches" just before the Rapture, while the door is open. The 7-year Tribulation comes "hereafter" (4:1), after the door is closed.
***Rev. 2:10, in Green's Interlinear, says, "Do not at all fear the things which you are about to suffer. Behold! The devil is about to throw some of you into prison so that you may be tested. And you shall have ten days of trials. Be faithful to death, and I will give you the crown of life."
***All overcomers get "to eat of the tree of life" (2:7), but the persecuted ones of 2:10 get "a crown of life." Can't there be a difference to those who win out in spite of tough persecution? The martyrs in the tribulation get white robes. Rev. 6:11 says, "And white robes were given unto every one of them." It doesn't mention crowns.
But you might say "there is no picture of any tribulation saints wearing a crown in chapter 7 or 15". That is true. But just as I think chapters 4 and 5 reveal the initial scene in heaven right after the pre-trib. rapture, I think the picture shown in chapters 7 and 15 reveal the scene in heaven immediately after the post-tribulation rapture, before the judgement seat of Christ has convened. Note that the fact that the 144,000 are not seen with crowns seem to indicate that the judgment seat indeed has not convened. I can't see them being the bride without getting the crowns that the bride is entitled to. In James 1 your correlation of the twelve tribes to the 144,000 seems to indicate that they will be given the crown of life. So it must be given at the judgment seat of Christ which is about to convene. I'm sure they will be given the crown of righteousness and probably the crown of glory that they didn't receive at the pre-trib rapture as well. When will they receive it? At the judgment seat of Christ.
***One thing that might indicate that crowns will also be awarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ is the typology of Esther and Mordecai. In the seventh year of Ahasuerus' reign, "he set the royal crown upon her (Esther's) head, and made her queen instead of Vashti." In the 12th year, "the crown royal" was set also upon Mordecai's head (Es. 6:8; 8:15) after he came "before the king's gate" (4:2).
There is nothing in scripture that says that all the crowns that the bride will be given have to be presented at the pre-trib rapture. In Revelation 5:11 it says that the elders, "cast their CROWNS before the throne", but it doesn't necessarily mean that they each are casting multiple crowns. They just as well could be collectively casting their crowns . . . each one casting the one crown (the crown of glory) that we know from 1 Peter 5:4 that they receive at the pre-trib rapture.
You said . . . >>>II Tim. 4:7,8: "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a CROWN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at THAT DAY (the Pre-Trib Rapture): and not to me only, but unto ALL them also that love his appearing" (epiphany). I agree with you.
But you did not agree with me (which is ok since we are both searching for the truth). I said that because of the reference to "the righteous judge" and "that day" in this scripture I thought that the timing of this reward being given to the bride seems to be at the judgment seat of Christ which is on "that day". Don't you think that Jesus is coming as groom rather than judge at the pre-trib. rapture? And don't you think that "that day" refers to the day the post-trib rapture, the coronation, the judgment seat, the marriage supper and the wrath will fall on, rather than the "day of Christ" when the pre-trib rapture occurs? In my view, although this crown of righteousness is reserved exclusively for the bride, it is not presented until the judgment seat of Christ.
***THAT DAY often does refer to the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, especially in the OT, but it can refer to the day a certain action takes place. Yes, Jesus is coming as the Bridegroom at the Pre-Trib Rapture, but "judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 4:17). Christ must choose his Bride.
***Also, the judge stands at the door. Jas. 5:7-9 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord (at the Rapture). Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (rain of Tishri) and latter rain (of Nisan). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the JUDGE STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR." They that are with Christ at the time of the Rapture are "CALLED, AND CHOSEN, AND FAITHFUL" (Rev. 17:14). "And, behold, I (Christ) come quickly (at the Rapture); and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev. 22:12).
I think that the tribulation saints could possibly receive another crown even besides the crown of life. Do you think the soul winners crown referred to in Phil 4:1, "Therefore, my brethren (possibly the brethren that Paul had led to the Lord) dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and CROWN . . .", will only be given to the bride? What about the harvest of souls (the multitudes of Rev. 7:9) that the tribulation saints will win. Don't you think the tribulation saints will be rewarded for their efforts as well?
***Actually, I think each person will get exactly what they deserve, and there are exceptions to general rules. It is appointed to men once to die, and yet this generation has a chance to be the exception to the rule, as Enoch and Elijah were exceptions. One of the attributes of the Lord is perfect justice. However, Jesus said, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed" (Lu. 20:29).
***There will be some differences. We can see that by Rev. 5:10 and 7:15. The first of the firstfruits are made "unto our God KINGS AND PRIESTS: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth. The same thing was seen in the Preview of the Rapture. Rev. 1:6 says, "And hath made us KINGS AND PRIESTS." In Rev. 7:15, the Tribulation saints are "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple." It doesn't say that they are kings.
Phil. 3:11-14 refers to "attaining the resurrection of the dead" and the "prize of the high calling" (which, by the way, in Greek can also be translated "upward invitation"). I know primarily Paul was talking about attaining the first upward invitation, but don't you think the tribulation saints will cherish the prize of their "upward invitation" and "resurrection" (for those foolish virgins that were already dead) as well.
***All believers will attain to a upward invitation, but only one wins the prize of being called up before the Tribulation. I Cor. 9:24 says, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but ONE RECEIVETH THE PRIZE. Paul added, "So run, that ye may obtain." I'm running to obtain. I don't want to be a "castaway" (I Cor. 9:27). Along with the Pre-Trib Rapture, the prize is the incorruptible crown. It is as if we were in the Olympics, and went up on the podium to receive our gold medal.
It seems to me that the evidence points to one crown being given to the bride at the pre-tribulation rapture, the crown of glory. The Greek word for glory can also be translated "praise or honor". It seems that Jesus bestows upon them a special early reward to honor them for being faithful overcomers. Note that the scripture that you quoted in 1 Corinthians 9:24-25 indicates that at the finish line, which for him is the pre-trib. rapture, the bride receives a crown (singular) . . . not crowns.
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one (the bride) receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible (crown singular).
It seems that all rewards with this one exception will be distributed at the judgment seat of Christ on "that day", both to the bride and the tribulation saints.
***I Pet. 5:4 says, "when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." Do you think the crown of glory could be the same as the incorruptible crown?
What do you think of all that I have covered in this post?
***That we will receive a crown at the Pre-Trib Rapture seems assured. Other than that, what we will get then or later at the Judgment Seat of Christ is not set in stone. Christ is the judge--thank goodness. Another thing that crosses my mind is that the Bride may get a crown at the Marriage of the Lamb. Agape. Your Brother in Jesus
Today, there is a whole generation with the chance to not have to die. At times, there are exceptions to general rules. Satan contended with Michael about the body of Moses (Jude 9).
In Rev. 11, both of these men prophesy in Israel. They are Israelites. Enoch was a Gentile. Both of these men prophesy during the Tribulation. Enoch was caught up before the Flood.
Scripture reveals to us that they are Moses and Elijah. They have the powers of Moses and Elijah. Also, Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Zech. 4:11,14 says, "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?...These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Jesus "was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him" (Mt. 17:2,3).
No one has mentioned the pink cross in the sky. I think Jesus will be seen sitting on his throne in the Sign of the Son of Man. Men say, "to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne" (Rev. 6:16). Agape
I don't really predict anything. Since I am not a prophet, all I can do is say how it looks to me. The year 1997/1998 was the 480th year in the Modern Parallels. It was marked for some reason. It just wasn't the year of the Rapture. It may have been the first year in the parable of the barren fig tree. We should know soon.
The Oslo Accords were signed on Sept. 13, 1993. Adding the 7 good years brings us to Sept. 13, 2000. Adding the 7 bad years brings us to Sept. 13, 2007, a date that seems firm for lots of reasons. It is the 2300th day, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, after the Feast of Weeks in 2001. It is Tishri 1, exactly 14 years since the Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel on Tishri 1, 5754. It is the Feast of Trumpets, and it is 7 months (Eze. 39:12) before the following Nisan 1, because 5768 is a Jewish Leap Year. I think Hos. 6:3 and Eze. 29:17,21 show that the Second Advent will be on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year and Sacred Year, Nisan 1.
There is a gap between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. The 10 kings have no kingdom as yet at the time of the Rapture (Rev. 17:12), yet they are crowned as the Tribulation begins (Rev. 13:1). The way I see it, we are fast running out of time. We should strive to not only get ourselves ready, but help others get ready too. We only have until the Rapture to do it. Our time to work is narrowing every day that goes by.
In Rev. 2:28, Jesus mentioned the overcomer and told the churches, "I will give him the morning star." Members of the churches already have Jesus in their hearts. Therefore, I think this morning star refers to Heaven, where Christ's throne is located. This statement is only 7 verses after Jesus said, "I gave her space to repent" in Rev. 2:21.
In Rev. 1:3, the Rapture is "at hand." After telling us what comes "hereafter" the Rapture (Rev. 4:1), the Rapture is still "at hand" in Rev. 22:10. Six verses later, Jesus said, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the CHURCHES. I am the root (YHVH) and the offspring (Jesus) of David, and THE BRIGHT AND MORNING STAR."
I think he says he is the morning star to show us that his throne is on a morning star. Saturn, marked by 7 rings (Zech. 3:9,10, LXX) and our 3rd heaven (II Cor. 12:2) is a morning star in the spring and an evening star in the fall. To me, this makes Pentecost a better bet than any of the fall feasts. Song of Sol. 2:10-14 sets spring as when our beloved will speak and say, "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds (of birds is not in the Heb., the Bride will sing the new song, Rev. 5:9) is come, and the voice of the turtle (lit., turtledove) is heard in our land (they arrive in Apr.); The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell (end of May and early June). Arise, my love (the Bride), my fair one, and come away." Maranatha.
I'm sort of thinking out loud here. If the door opens on the anniversary of Christ's ascension day, and the Rapture takes place 10 days later, on Pentecost, "I am ABOUT to spit you out of My mouth" would be very true when the Rapture is "at hand," as in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10. Is the Rapture "at hand" the 10 days of Rev. 2:10, the 10 days between the anniversary of Christ's Ascension Day and Pentecost? Rev. 2:10 says, "ye shall have tribulation TEN DAYS: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Rev. 3:10,11 (Green's) says, "Because you kept (past tense) the word of My patience, I also will keep you OUT OF the hour of trial (the Tribulation) which is ABOUT to come on the whole world to try those who live on the earth. Behold! I come QUICKLY: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."
Rev. 2:5 says, "repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee QUICKLY, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Rev. 2:16 says, "Repent; or else I will come unto thee QUICKLY."
Rev. 2:21,22 says, "I gave (past tense) her SPACE TO REPENT of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will (future tense) cast her...into great tribulation, except they repent." Doesn't this sound like the space to repent is past and the Tribulation is future but close? Is it when the door opens? Is the space to repent over on Ascension Day? Are there at that time only 10 more days till the Rapture on Pentecost? Noah got a warning of 7 days so he could get ready. The door of the Ark was open so he could load everything. Gen. 7:4 says, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain." Are we given 10 days so we can get ready?
Rev. 3:8 says, "I have (past tense) set before thee an OPEN DOOR." Doesn't it sound like the space to repent is over and the door has just opened?
Eze. 41:1,2 says, "he brought me to the temple...And the breadth of the DOOR was TEN cubits."
Rev. 22:6,7,12,20 (KJV) says, "These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must SHORTLY BE DONE. Behold, I come QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book....And, behold, I come QUICKLY; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be....Surely I come QUICKLY." Food for thought.
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