Pro and Con 477

Posted 3-31-00

Incoming email

...I have been wanting to ask you a few questions for some time but wanted to study up to make sure I am not wasting your time so here it goes:

1) In Revelation 5:8-12 it doesn't appear that there are other people besides the living creatures, 24 elders, and the multitude of angels. How did you come to the conclusion, scripturally, that this includes those of the first rapture? It does state that there are ones redeemed out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, but it does not state that all these people are present. It only declares the living creatures, 24 elders, and the multitude of angels. This is confusing to me as I would think that it would plainly add the rest within the statement. Could you clear this up for me?

2) You make the statement that you think that all the trumpet judgments happen within the Day of The Lord. I can accept the first three happening within a day but the rest seem to happen over some time. For instance, the locusts (weather spiritual or actual) torment men for 5 months. This brings up another problem. These creatures not only torment men for 5 months but are not able to touch the ones that are sealed by G-d.

a) If the pre-wrath rapture has already happened then why are the 144,000 that were sealed still present on earth?

b) If the 144,000 are still present after the pre-wrath rapture then when are they raptured?

c) If the 144,000 are not raptured pre-wrath then how are they part of the bride since the marriage is happening during the day of wrath in heaven?

3) The locusts torment men for 5 months. Does this occur concurrently while Israel is cleaning up the landscape for 7 months?

4) When Israel cleans up the landscape for 7 months it would appear that they hire outside help to do this. Where does this help come from since according to the last 3 trumpets they are going to be pretty busy being tormented and killed?

5) Where do I find the scriptural reference that indicates that the two witnesses are place in the first half of the tribulation period? According to Revelation CH.11 they are place in between the 6th and 7th trumpets.

Hope these are relevant questions. Love Ya

My reply

> (1) In Revelation 5:8-12 it doesn't appear that there are other people
> besides the living creatures, 24 elders, and the multitude of angels.

Rev. 5:8-10 says, "...saints. And they (the saints) sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us (the saints) to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on (epi, over) the earth."

Those are the raptured saints. The 24 elders are all Israelites, 12 patriarchs of Israel and 12 apostles. The 24 elders are our Representatives (as in Congress). They represent the whole group out of every nation.

> 2) You make the statement that you think that all the trumpet judgments
> happen within the Day of The Lord

I think they happen on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. The 1st brings a hail of fiery stones. The 2nd brings the asteroid impact to the Mediterranean Sea. The 3rd brings the larger asteroid piece to impact Earth and destroy Babylon in one hour. The 4th brings the dark smoke that obscures the Sun, Moon and stars to a degree. The 5th shows that the larger asteroid piece opened the bottomless pit. The 6th shows that destroying angels, fire, smoke, and brimstone "slay the third part of men." The 7th shows that there will be delay no longer, "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." Also, at the 7th trumpet, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever" (Rev. 11:15).

It doesn't change anything that men not having the seal of God (that is all men that are left) will be tormented 5 of the 7 remaining months to the Second Advent.

> c) If the 144,000 are not raptured pre-wrath then how are they part of the bride since the
> marriage is happening during the day of wrath in heaven?

The 144,000 are taken up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture just before the trumpets start to sound.

> 4) When Israel cleans up the landscape for 7 months it would appear that
> they hire outside help to do this. Where does this help come from since
> according to the last 3 trumpets they are going to be pretty busy being tormented and killed?

Only Israelites bury the dead. In the rest of the world, the bodies are not buried. Eze. 39:12 says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land." When they "sever out men of continual employment" to bury the dead, they are Israelites. "Thus shall they cleanse THE LAND" (Eze. 39:16).

> 5) Where do I find the scriptural reference that indicates that the two
> witnesses are place in the first half of the tribulation period? According
> to Revelation CH.11 they are place in between the 6th and 7th trumpets.

Just as there is an added interval of time, the Tribulation judgment, between the 6th and 7th millenniums, there is a parenthetic portion of Scripture between the 6th and 7th seals, between the 6th and 7th trumpets, and between the 6th and 7th vials. We have to look for what I call match-marks to see where to place that section in time.

The two witnesses prophesy 1260 days. That alone tells us it is the first half of the Tribulation. The last part is shortened to 1040 days (2300 of Dan. 8:14 -1260 = 1040). At the end of the full 2nd 1260 days, it would be impossible for the Satan possessed False Prophet to kill them. It would be impossible for them to lay unburied in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days while "they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another" (Rev. 11:10). By that time, Christ has already returned. Agape

Incoming email

Re: length of the millennium
Rev. 20 mentions six times that the millennium lasts "a thousand years". Do you think this is a literal 1000 of 365 day years, or should this be treated like the 70th week of Daniel, where each day is a year? Thanks!

My reply

I take the Millennium as being 1000 ordinary years. I assume that they will be 365-day years made up of 24-hour days since we are not told otherwise. However, I do think the first day of the Millennium will be Yahshua's Long Day, of which Joshua's Long Day was a type. More died that day from falling rocks than the Israelites killed.

In Daniel 9:24, it is literally 70 shabua (sevens), or 70 x 7 = 490 ordinary years. The first week of years was 7 x 7 = 49 ordinary years. When that segment had come to pass on time, people could understand the rest correctly. That seems to be why the 7 weeks of years were separated from the 62 weeks of years.

God set up the way we calculate days and years in Genesis 1. The 5th verse says, "And the evening and the morning were the first day." The 14th verse says, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years." The Bible is consistent. Therefore, I take it that the first day was 24 hours, and the last day will be 24 hours.

In Dan. 8:14, 26, we can tell that the days are the same kind of days as in Genesis 1:5. Verse 14 literally says 2300 evenings and mornings, i.e., 2300 24-hour days. Verse 26 says, "And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days." I think the 2300 days are the length of the shortened Tribulation--exactly, not 2300 years, not 1150 days, as some figure. I take it as 2300 evenings and mornings, or 2300 literal 24-hour days, as the Lord set up in Gen. 1:5,14.

I take it that Dan. 9:25,26 was fulfilled literally. From the decree of Cyrus (Isa. 45:28) in BC 454 (as per Martin Anstey) to 30 AD was 483 literal 365-day years. (7 + 62 x 7 = 483) (483 - 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD, the year the Messiah was karath, killed).

Incoming email

I read Revelations every night and ask God to reveal his secrets to us. I have a couple questions.

When Jesus says to John "come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." Rev 4:1, I He saying after these seven church ages, after the "come up here", or after that time while John was on Patmos?

It says he was immediately in the spirit. Was his body still on earth then. Why does everyone hold that when we are taken up, Our body goes up. Maybe the reason we can be sinless in heaven and not have that sinful nature anymore is because our physical bodies are no longer with us. I realize when Jesus was resurrected, his body way gone, but he also couldn't be touched at that time. I don't think we will be like that. I also don't think we will be taken like Elijah or Enoch either, different circumstances. If we are taken like I think John was, momentarily, then our sinful earthly bodies will stay here and our spirit will be taken. If this is the case, then there will be a lot of dead bodies on earth of the part of the church that is filled with the Holy Spirit. The falling away that is to come could come from the Christians that were left behind to be chastened. Believing that they were saved, they will think their beliefs were in error and turn from God. Also, this would be much easier to explain than if all of a sudden all the really Godly people of earth were suddenly gone. Dead Christians are easier to cover up that disappeared Christians.

one more question. The four Angels that hold back the winds. Are these actual winds? If they are, could you imagine if there were no winds. Everything would stagnate, there would be no rain, and disease would probably spread, not to mention incredible fires all over, humidity would be intense and with a build up of static electricity lightning and thunder storms. Just a thought.

I am amazed that you can get through all the letters people send you. GOD BLESS YOU. I pray for you often.

My reply

> When Jesus says to John "come up here, and I will show you what must take
> place after this." Rev 4:1, I He saying after these seven church ages,
> after the "come up here", or after that time while John was on Patmos?

He means after the Rapture. The book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ is written as if the Rapture was at hand. It is "at hand" in the first chapter (1:3), and it is "at hand" in the last chapter (22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly." He comes quickly at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11).

The first chapter gives us a Preview of the Rapture. Jesus is seen and tells us who he really is. Rev. 1:8 says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning (Lord of the OT) and the ending (Lord of the NT), saith the Lord, which is (at the Rapture), and which was (at the First Advent), and which is to come (at the Second Advent), the Almighty."

John was on Patmos, which means mortal. Symbolically, he was mortal and suddenly became in the Spirit at the Rapture. Rev. 1:10 says, "I was (literally became) in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." The voice is Christ's.

In Rev. 1:19, John is told to "Write the things which thou hast seen (before the Rapture), and the things which are (at the Rapture), and the things which shall be HEREAFTER" (after the Rapture).

Rev. 4:1 is when the Rapture takes place. It says, "After this (after he wrote about the things before the Rapture) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard (Christ's, in the Preview, 1:10) was as it were of a trumpet talking with me (the trump of God, I Thess. 4:16); which said, Come up hither (the Rapture), and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (hereafter the Rapture).

> Was his body still on earth then. Why does everyone hold that when we are
> taken up, Our body goes up.

I can only answer for myself. I don't expect dead bodies to be left behind. Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently (see Rev. 3:10) for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of the Earth, as when Jeremiah's body was pulled up out of the miry pit), and set my feet upon a rock (i.e., Heaven), and established my goings (hinting of the two Raptures). And he hath put a NEW SONG in my mouth (see Rev. 5:9), even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

> The falling away that is to come could
> come from the Christians that were left behind to be chastened.

The falling away in II Thess. 2:3 is apostasia, the departure, separation, as in apostacion, divorcement. Apostasia was translated as departure in several early Bibles.

> The falling away that is to come could come from the Christians that
> were left behind to be chastened. Believing that they were saved,
> they will think their beliefs were in error and turn from God.

John 6:39 says, "this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP AGAIN (i.e., the second Rapture) at the last day" (as this age ends and the Millennium begins).

> The four Angels that hold back the winds. Are these actual winds?

I take them to be literal. The asteroid will impact the Earth because of a whirlwind. Jer. 23:19,20 says, "Behold, a WHIRLWIND of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly." Rev. 8:8,10 couldn't be understood until asteroids were discovered.

Isa. 22:18 says, "He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country" (where Babylon is). Rev. 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

I appreciate your prayers. I can't answer everything that comes in. I just do the best I can with the time I have.

Incoming email

I read my Bible again and Rev 5:8-10 says "prayers of the saints" it says nothing else that I can see about saints. Please help?

Also, you didn't answer my questions concerning the creatures that torment those not sealed for five months. Since you did answer some of the 144,000 questions then I will ask you this: If the ones that are sealed by G-d are taken pre-wrath, then how do you explain why the creatures that torment men for five months are told not to torment the ones that are sealed? Are these that are sealed different from the 144,000? It appears to me that the 144,000 are still hear on earth during and after the day of wrath. I am not intentionally being confrontational with this, I am just trying to understand. Thanks so much.

My reply

Sorry, I thought I had already covered some things in the previous answers.

> I read my Bible again and Rev 5:8-10 says "prayers of the saints" it says
> nothing else that I can see about saints. Please help?

Rev. 5:8 ends with the word "saints." Therefore when v. 9 starts off with, "And THEY" It refers back to saints. It is they, the saints, including the 24 elders, that sing the new song. The 24 elders are all Israelites, the 12 patriarchs and the 12 apostles. The saints are "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." The elders are like our Representatives in Congress. They represent the whole crowd.

> how do you explain why the creatures that torment men
> for five months are told not to torment the ones that are sealed?

There aren't any present that are sealed, only those that are not sealed. The sealed ones escaped in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Rev. 9:4 says, "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have NOT the seal of God in their foreheads."

> It appears to me that the 144,000 are still hear on earth during and after the day of wrath.

They are caught up between (Rev. 7:14) the breaking of the sixth (Rev. 6:12) and seventh seals (Rev. 8f). It is on the Day of God's Wrath (6:17), but they are caught up before the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth. Agape

Incoming email

Subject: Gratitude Thank you Marilyn for two years of encouragement and hope. Your research and responses continue to enlighten me. I have about 5000 pages of copied material from your web-site. What an awesome journey we are on and what a road map you have provided us. Watching and praying.

My reply

Thanks. Agape

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Let's hear it for DNA testing!
From: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/default.stm) 29 Mar 00 Modern humans do not have Neanderthal ancestors in their family tree, a new DNA study concludes.

The DNA extracted from the ribs of a Neanderthal infant buried in southern Russia 29,000 years ago was found to be too distinct from modern human DNA to be related....among the last of the Neanderthals...

The research by Dr Goodwin and his Swedish and Russian colleagues agrees with the findings of the first analysis of Neanderthal DNA in 1997.

That study of DNA, taken from the first Neanderthal skeleton found in the Feldhofer Cave in Germany in 1856, supports the theory that modern humans replaced Neanderthals....

According to Dr Goodwin, the DNA sequence from the infant was very similar to the specimen from the Feldhofer Cave, proving that there was little diversity among Neanderthals.

"If they had been very diverse at the DNA level, they could have encompassed modern humans. The fact that these two Neanderthals are closely related and not related to modern humans implies that they don't have the diversity to encompass a modern human gene pool," said Dr Goodwin.

Incoming email

Re: hope
I think that you are right on the mark with the I Thessalonians 4:13-18, but the 2 Timothy 2:15 is clearly taken out of context, I would say that it is a warning against worthless disputes that profit no one, but you would need to read the whole chapter.

John 12:8 "You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me"

I understand that you could be raptured at any moment but I think that we have to live every day. I absolutely agree that we all have different callings, and different gifts from God, what prompted my comments to that effect is the incredible amount of information that you have compiled on you web site. You, in my opinion are clearly an expert in this particular area of Bible study. I have been to a number of other web sites looking for information on the Rapture and found your to be the most compelling and was happy to be able to contact you. I do not know you and do not want to offend you with this; Make sure you are not putting this quest for understanding between you and our Lord.

You ask if I will be ready for the First Rapture and I say that, That is a decision that God will make. Even if I know the exact moment of the Coming of the Lord, how does this help me. Isn't it better to be ready all of the time, to live each day for Christ and accept his will. If God chooses me to be called home on the first bus that is fine with me but if God leaves me here I will still be a Christian and live each day for Christ. I owe my entire existence and salvation to Christ, I am nothing aside from the grace of God, I bow before the Lord and accept his will.

Given a choice I would stay and try to bring Christians home. Like I said though, I would certainly want my family on the bus.

What if God leaves you here, even though you know when he is coming? Will you protest and say "no fair, I was a good Christian" or will you bow and say "Thank you for further opportunity to serve you Lord"

Why do you think that You will be called for the first Rapture? You say that you are ready and have all of the oil that you need. I am not questioning your readiness, just your absolute confidence. Does your knowledge of scripture make you ready? Does your belief in Christ make you ready? Does knowing the time make you ready?

The answer is of course, no to all three questions, so what does make you ready aside from the Grace of God? nothing.Thanks for the thoughtful reply

My reply

> Make sure you are not putting this quest for understanding between you and our Lord.

The Lord has preeminence over everything. He has given us his word and I want to understand as much of it as possible. Understanding his word draws us closer to him. It doesn't push us away.

> so what does make you ready aside from the Grace of God? nothing.

To be certain that we have enough oil of the Spirit of Christ to go in the first Rapture, we should pay attention to what Scripture teaches on that subject. In Eph. 4:30, Paul said, "GRIEVE NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT of God, whereby ye are sealed (he is talking to believers) unto the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." In 5:15-18, he said, "See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as FOOLS (i.e., foolish virgins), but as WISE (i.e., wise virgins), Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore BE YE NOT UNWISE, but understanding what the will of the Lord is, And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT."

In I Thess. 5:19, Paul said, "QUENCH NOT THE SPIRIT." When we quench the Spirit, we are out of fellowship with God. Sin has erected a barrier between us and our Holy God. We must confess our sins to get back in fellowship. Then the Holy Spirit wells up within us like a fountain of living water.

John told us the conditions of fellowship with our Holy God. We must walk in the light. He gave us the following "if" clauses. I John 1:4-10 says, "these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. IF we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. IF we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. IF we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

In Titus 2:12-15, Paul said, "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; LOOKING FOR THAT BLESSED HOPE, AND THE GLORIOUS APPEARING of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works (the Laodiceans are told to be zealous, Rev. 3:19). These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Peter gave us a list of things "THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE." We are to add to our faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, charity (agape love). "For IF these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is BLIND (like the Laodiceans), and cannot see afar off (Heaven), and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS (when he first accepted Christ). Wherefore the rather, brethren (believers), give diligence to make your CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an ENTRANCE shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Peter 1:4-10).

Lu. 21:34-36 says, "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

We are not told to pray that we will be left here during the Tribulation. We are commanded to do the opposite. Jesus said, "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN."

So WATCH, and PRAY that YOU will be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE" in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

"For yet a little while (the space to repent? Rev. 2:21), and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry" (Heb. 10:37).

In Rev. 3:3, Jesus said, "HOLD FAST, AND REPENT (i.e., confess our sins, as in I John 1:9). IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." What will we know if we DO watch like he commanded?


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