Pro and Con 481

Posted 4-6-00

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Re: Rapture Warning
...I speculated that the parable of the 10 virgins seems to indicate that there must be a warning before the first Rapture because the midnight cry goes forth that the Bridegroom is coming. The 5 foolish virgins then panic and run to the 5 wise virgins begging for information on how to "qualify" for the imminent Rapture. However, there isn't enough time for them to prepare and the door is shut. I keep wondering what kind of warning we might receive. Maybe it's been right in front of us all along - in black and white, as they say. I Thessalonians 4:16-17 states, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Most prophecy experts have always taught that these two events take place almost simultaneously. But, maybe not. The graves came open after Jesus was crucified. And Paul states that we will rise in "ranks". Could that ten day window of opportunity you spoke about be following the rapture of the dead in Christ? If graves literally open and the whole world witnesses this amazing event, everyone will know that the rapture of the living saints is soon to follow. That would certainly be enough to cause the foolish Laodiceans to panic and run to the true Bride for oil. But ten days is not enough time to prepare. I believe you mentioned a scripture passage which states that there will be 10 days of tribulation. Knowing one was about to miss the Rapture would cause great tribulation to the souls who were not ready. I'm just thinking out loud here, but the resurrection of the dead in Christ would be a very definite warning. Your expert thoughts, please? I know we don't have long to wait for the answer. And let me say again how grateful I am for all your wonderful guidance and the tremendous amount of time and effort you unselfishly give to those of us who are trying so desperately to learn and understand. Agape.

My reply

> > the parable of the 10 virgins seems to indicate that there must be a warning before the first Rapture

Does the news that the United Religions charter is slated to be signed June 26 qualify as a warning?

I think that since Christ comes quickly, the resurrection and Rapture will take place quickly. Agape

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Subject:Revelation 2:10 vis a vis P&C 476, 477,478
I agree with you in regards to the open door between Ascension Day of Christ and Pentecost. The Holy Spirit tells me that there is some correlation to Rev 2:10, but I do not discern this concept of some ten horrible days of persecution and death before Pentecost. Let me outline my reasoning.

Revelation chapter 2 is written about the Church, which is the body of believers that the Father has given to our Lord, up to and including the present. There is a three fold method to the writing. It was (1) "Contemporary" to the time it was written to the local churches of John's day, it was (2) "Composite" as a picture of all churches of all ages (including the present), and it was (3) Chronological in a panoramic historical sense (subsequent periods of time are covered).

Let's focus on Rev 2:8 to 2:10. It is written to the angel of the church in Smyrna, for a period of roughly 50 AD to 300 AD (exact dates are not imporant). Tribulation is mentioned first, and it simply means trouble. We all have tribulation as believers. This trouble is for ten days. If we check Strong's #2250, we see that day is a period which is always defined more of less clearly by the context. As you correctly point out, we have 24 hour days is Genesis, but a much different and longer period of time for the day of the Lord. Each is defined by it's context. So back to the ten days of trouble (tribulation) of Smyrna. Note that Smyrna means "suffering", and the church of Smyrna represents a martyr church. According to "Fox's Book of Martyrs" five million believers died for Christ in the church of Smyrna. The ten periods of time for tribulation would appear to be during the reign of ten intensely wicked and persecuting Roman emperors, (note these are not 24 hour days):

1) Nero (64-68 AD) - The Apostle Paul beheaded.
2) Domitian (95-96 AD) - The Apostle John exiled.
3) Trajan (104-117 AD) - Ignatius burned at the stake.
4) Marcus Aurelius (161-180 AD) - Polycarp was martyred.
5) Severus (200-211 AD)
6) Maximinius (235-237 AD)
7) Decius (250-253 AD)
8) Valerian (257-260 AD)
9) Aurelian (270-275 AD)
10) Diocletian (303-313 AD) The worst and most evil of all the emperors.

You see, I can not pull out the one verse of Rev 2:10 and apply it to the ten 24 hour days from Ascension to Pentecost. I think you have revealed exactly what I am saying in P&C 478 page 5. "Maybe you haven't been tested, but I have. And I have stood my ground every inch of the way." Also, on P&C 478 page 6, "One warning. Every time we take an upward spiritual step . . . " That is the best thing I have ever read Marilyn regarding our persecution as Spirit Filled Believers! I have had all sorts of testing, as you state, sometimes I did not react correctly, and I really suffered for it! Praise the Trinity of the Living God Jehovah-Elohim for our growth.! Agape

My reply

Of course the seven messages to the churches apply to the church from the apostolic church to now, particularly starting with 96 AD, when John penned The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The ten waves of the worst persecution raged until Constantine's Edict of Milan, called the Edict of Toleration, in 313 AD. I listed them in Revelations 2000, as found in the Concordia Cyclopedia, A Handbook of Religious Information.

Overlaid upon the past history of the churches, is Christ's view of the churches from the viewpoint of when the Rapture is "at hand" (1:3; 22:10). He signs off with "Surely I come quickly" in 22:20.

> > You see, I can not pull out the one verse of Rev 2:10 and apply it to the ten 24 hour days from Ascension to Pentecost.

I can. I'll try to explain why. Recently, I said that I wonder if the door of Rev. 3:8 opens on the anniversary of Christ's Ascension Day (the 40th day) and is open during the 10 days between Ascension Day and Pentecost (the 50th day). We can see new truths emerge as time goes on. We now know that the 10 days did not represent 10 years between the 2 Raptures. We now have to figure out what else they could apply to.

There are a few other references to consider in case they tie in. The fact that Jesus ascended on the 40th day and the Holy Spirit of Christ descended on the 50th day may have some bearing on this. Gen. 24:55 may too. It says that when Rebekah was to go with Abraham's servant, "her brother and her mother said, "Let the damsel abide with us a FEW DAYS, AT THE LEAST TEN; after that she shall go." Rebekah elected to go right away instead of waiting 10 days, but still had to journey awhile to reach Isaac. The "breadth of the door was ten cubits" in the description of the temple in Eze. 41:2. Dan. 1:12's, "Prove thy servants...ten days" may have a connection.

Rev. 2:10 does not apply to all the church. It says, "the devil shall cast SOME of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days." It seems that the only way these days would be limited to the same cut-off point would be if the Rapture took place on the 10th day. Therefore, they may apply specifically to the LAST ten days before the Rapture.

We have "ten days" mentioned in Rev. 2:10 and the "open door" mentioned in 3:8. My question is, does the door open 10 days before the Rapture and close immediately after the Rapture? If so, it could explain why Jesus ascended on the 40th day.

Jas. 5:3,7-9 says, "Ye have heaped treasure together for THE LAST DAYS....Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (former rain starting Tishri 1, in the fall) and the latter rain (starting Nisan 1, in the spring). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door." This may indicate that the coming of the Lord is NIGH at the end of Nisan in the spring. This would agree with the clues in Song of Sol. 2:10-14 too.

Revelation is written as if the Rapture is "at hand." That ties in with it drawing "nigh." Does the judge (Christ) stand before the open door 10 days choosing his Bride? The first chapter mentions "things which must SHORTLY come to pass" (1:1). The last chapter mentions "things which must SHORTLY be done" (22:6). What I wonder, does this SHORT TIME last 10 days?

In Gen. 41:32-34, we find information about the 7 good years and the 7 bad years. It says, "the dream was DOUBLED unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will SHORTLY bring it to pass....Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint officers over the land, and TAKE UP the fifth part of the land of Egypt IN THE SEVEN PLENTEOUS YEARS." This seems to also apply to our days. If so, and the 7 good years began Sept. 13, 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed, they will run out when the Final Status Peace Agreement is slated to be signed, on Sept. 13, 2000. Therefore, the only 10-day period I can think of that is left is coming up between Ascension Day and Pentecost.

Already, only one 2300-day period between the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Trumpets 6 years later is left before the 40-year generation is up. It is counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning from the Feast of Weeks (Sivan 6) in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1) on Sept. 13, 2007.

II Thess. 2:6-8 (NIV) says, "you know what is holding him (the False Prophet) back (the salt of the Earth and the indwelling Holy Spirit), so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who NOW HOLDS IT BACK WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO TILL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY (at the Rapture). And then the lawless one will be revealed." Agape

Incoming email

Re: CELESTIAL GATHERING After 8p.m. Thursday, the moon will appear near Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars, and about 25 degrees above the western horizon. Saturn will be 3 degrees to the right of the moon. Below Saturn will be Jupiter and Mars, separated from each other by 1 degree. This rare alignment of the moon and three planets-which will converge inside a circle just nine degree across-will be visible from the back yard starting on Wednesday night. After dark Thursday, the sky show will get even better, as the moon waxes and moves higher in the sky.

My reply

Thanks. It is interesting that the three heavens are so close together. Paradise is in the "third heaven" (II Cor. 12:2-4). It is also interesting that this happens on Apr. 6, which I think is the date of both the Crucifixion and Second Advent on our calendar. Agape

Incoming email

Re: faith
...I am 22 years old and have just recently came into faith.I am to attend a babtism on friday. I feel I want to be part of this activity but don't really understand it's meaning and where at in my faith I should be before I do this. I read a couple of the e-mails that other people have sent in and you seem to understand everything they ask. So if it's no trouble, please reply back with some advice,and what it means to be Babtized. thanks

My reply

First of all, baptism is intended for believers, therefore we are saved by our faith in Christ, then we are baptized. The Greek word "baptizo" means immersion. Not all churches immerse the one being baptised, but the same symbolism is intended as if they were immersed. I was sprinkled in the Methodist Church and immersed in the Baptist Church by my own choosing after finding out that the word "baptizo" actually means immersion. I wanted to be immersed because Jesus was immersed in the Jordan River.

We first confess our faith in Christ verbally before others. Then we go under the water as a symbol that we die to sin and then come up out of the water as if resurrected to new life. In His love

Incoming email

Re: good post on todays 5D:

... Joel 2:23, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." (If Yeshua-Jesus is viewed as being represented by the titles of both former rains & latter rains, then it appears the rapture will come in the first month- Nisan. I believe it will be Nisan 16, Bikkurim, The Spring Harvest Feast of Firstfruits.)...

"...I think the rapture will be on Bikkurin, Reshith, Nisan 16 The Spring Feast of Firstfruits, but not this year. I fell it will be in 2001. Antway, I just wanted to add these two additional pieces to our rapture timing puzzle: Foreshadow of the rapture: Jude 1:5, "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the L-rd, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, (This SPRINGTIME deliverance points to the timing of rapture) afterward destroyed them (this destruction points to the 7 years of Jacobs trouble, aka, the 70th week of Daniel, aka the 7 years of the Great tribulation) that believed not.". ...2 Kings 13:20-22, "And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year (The month of Nisan, in which the Feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Bikkurim- Firstfruits reside). And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet." (Here we see a resurrection in the month of Nisan, as a type & foreshadow of a Firstfruits rapture).
Y'varechecha Ad-nai v'yishim'rechecha, Ya'ayr Ad-nai panav alecha v'chunecha, Yisa Ad-nai panav alecha, v'yasaym l'cha shalom. The L-rd bless you and keep you, The L-rd make His Face to shine upon you, and be gracious unto you. The L-rd lift up His countenance upon you, and give you peace.
Sha'alu Shalom Yerushalayim - pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
***He could conceivably be right, as there would still be enough time to slip this in before May, 2001. It would be springtime. Crowns could be given to the 10 kings quickly and a temple started within weeks as the blocks supposedly are cut. The 2 prophets could appear instantly. There would be the advantage of an increased soul harvest by waiting another 9 months..... If nothing happens this spring or fall, this would be a good next candidate time. What do you think?
PS: Don't you love that prayer?!

My reply

At the First Advent, Jesus came as the former rain on Tishri 1. At the Second Advent, Jesus will come as the latter rain on Nisan 1. To me, Nisan is not the month of the Rapture because it does not fit Song of Sol. 2:10-14. Nisan is the month of the latter rains. In Song of Sol., winter is past, the rain is over and gone. To me, that means that the month of Nisan is over and gone. There must be green figs too. In Passion Week, when Jesus cursed the fig tree, the statement was made that the time of figs was not yet. The green figs come on at the end of May and early June. So do the grapes. I still think Pentecost is most likely.

Any types of resurrection on Firstfruits can represent the sheaf that was raised after Christ was resurrected. That prayer is neat. Agape

Incoming email

Maybe the "open door that no one can shut..." Rev 3:8 is open to the Philadelphians for 10 days. Maybe it opens on Ascension Day and closes on Pentecost. Could there be a gap of time where they are given the space to repent to keep from going through the "hour of trial". Those filled with the Holy Spirit (enough oil in their lamps) go on Ascension Day and the rest over the next 10 days, or the rest on Pentecost. What else could the 10 days be?

In Rev. 4:1 John is no longer in the spirit, because he is "at once I was in the spirit" in verse 2, and he sees a door standing open in heaven. So this must be a visible doorway to heaven that a person not in the spirit could see. Maybe after Ascension Day after we repent a door is open to us. Maybe even to the Laodiceans because in 3:19 Jesus says to repent, and here is a door open to be with Him in verse 20 if they choose. Just thinking out loud here.

My reply

I think you are probably right about the door being open 10 days between Ascension Day and Pentecost. I doubt that the 10 days is the same as the space to repent. The year 1998 was so definitely marked on the Modern Parallels that it would seem a likely time for the space to repent to start.

Now that we know that they started writing the charter for the United Religions in 1998, things begin to jell. Their space to repent is likely to be from the time they started writing the charter to the time when it is finished. It is complete now. I have a copy of the whole thing that is slated to be signed June 26, 2000. It sounds very much like the United Nations charter. Rev. 2:21 says, "I gave her space to repent of her fornication (joining together); and she repented not."

I don't think the Rapture will be spread over 10 days because Jesus says that he is coming quickly, but the door can be open 10 days with the judge standing before the door. He could be choosing his Bride during that time. James 5:7-9 says, "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early (former rain of Tishri, 5760) and latter rain (of Nisan, 5760, of which the first day is today, April 6, 2000). Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord DRAWETH NIGH. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, THE JUDGE STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR."

The Laodiceans face a closed door (Rev. 3:20), as the foolish virgins do (Mt. 25:10). I think if they repented, they would be Philadelphians without any condemnation mentioned against them. They are classed as Laodiceans (which means people of judgment) because they have not repented. Agape

Incoming email

I am reading so many amazing things in regard to signs in the heaven and earth. Yesterday I was reading about the Pope and all the threads that weave this sinister plot. In my daily reading today, I read Mark 8:31-38 and could see parallels concerning Peter and the perverted doctrine of the pope as it relates to him. Jesus speaking to Satan and saying he is not mindful of the things of God, but the things of MEN. Taking up the cross, which has been perverted as observed in the "Bent Cross" the pope displays.... Jesus admonition.."For what will it profit a man if he gains the WHOLE WORLD, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in EXCHANGE for his soul?" This certainly looks like the plot was being addressed by Jesus in this passage. And it ends with Jesus' reference to His coming in glory. Things are getting very interesting! Thanks..your great!

My reply

Thanks, but this is all for the Lord's glory, not mine. You caught some overtones in this passage that I had missed. I appreciate your sharing your thoughts with me. Agape

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FWD: from fiveDoves, by Bob Wadsworth
The April 6, event is interesting. See the April issue of Biblical Astronomy. What I failed to mention in the newsletter is that the bright thin crescent of the moon will be sitting on the head of Cetus (the beast from the sea) at this time. The lower point of the moon (seen on the left side or south as viewed from Earth) will be on the head of Cetus and the upper point (seen on the right side, or north as viewd from Earth) will be extending upwards. This will appear as a little horn on the head of the beast from the sea. The stars of Cetus will most likely not be very visible that early in the evening because of solar glare. But that is the area in the heavens where the head of Cetus lies at that particular time.In His service

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Mz.Agee as an interested student looking at both sides of the issue of a pre- or post-tribulation rapture I was wondering where one may find reference to this volatile topic by any post-apostolic fathers starting with Polycarp and continuing to the 17th. century.

Surely you could understand why this type of request might need to be thoroughly responded to, as all other orthodox positions have at all times been easily traced to many documented expositions of the faith, of the numerous Fathers, Doctors, Apologist, or Reformers, and prior to the Macdonald, Irving, and Darby scenario of the 19th. century.

Your attention and help with this issue is kindly appreciated. In the Father's and Christ Service

My reply

Actually, just figuring out what the Lord has told us in the Bible is many many times more valuable than what any post-apostolic father might have said.

Here is a quote from a 1500-word sermon I have a copy of. It is by Pseudo-Ephraem, written c. 374-627 AD. In his "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, he wrote, "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION that is to come, and are TAKEN TO THE LORD lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

The Pre-Trib or the Pre-Wrath position isn't really something we have to decide between. There are two Raptures. Both positions are right as far as they go. The first group is the one "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. The second is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" that have come "out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" in Rev. 7:9,14.

There are two trumps of God to call up the saints. The first one is in I Thess. 4:16. It says, "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and WITH THE TRUMP OF GOD." The second one is in I Cor. 15:52. It says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP." The second is also the last.

The first is as the days of Noah (Mt. 24:37; Lu. 17:26). The last is as the days of Lot (Lu. 17:28). The conditions were different for each. It rained water from the heavens in Noah's day. However, "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven." It will really rain fire and brimstone the same day as the second Rapture. There are two pieces of what is probably a binary asteroid that will impact Earth that day (Rev, 8:8,10). The "mountain" hits the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). The "star" (aster) destroys Babylon.

Everyone on the Ark was married. Even the animals went in two by two. The first Rapture is when the wise virgins go with the Bridegroom when he comes (Mt. 25). At the second Rapture, the foolish virgins are caught up. At the first Rapture, the Philadelphians, who have no condemnation against them, are caught up. At the second Rapture, the Laodiceans who were spewed out of Christ's mouth the first time and have since washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb are caught up. On the day of the second Rapture, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH (the Tribulation saints) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (the Pre-Trib saints). Both groups are gathered to the assembly for the Judgment Seat of Christ is to convene that day.

Enoch was a type of the first Rapture. He simply was not, for God took him. Elijah was a type of the second Rapture. He went up in a whirlwind in a chariot of fire and with horses of fire. Fire is associated with the second Rapture because it happens before the asteroids impact Earth at noon on the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Agape

Incoming email

FWD: Re: the AVIV barley & Preparation for the 7th Millennium

Some felt that correcting the modern Jewish calendar was a waste of time. But, a burden has been placed upon many, perhaps hundreds, to correct the reckoning of our Feast days since Israel is back in the land and rabbi Hillell's calculations have outlived their accuracy and necessity. A few years ago I was compelled to state that, "We will be on God's calendar by the beginning of the 7th millennium." I was also compelled to do my part in its restoration. What happened during the last Sukkot of the 6th millennium, could not have been anticipated a year earlier. Walls were broken down between various Jewish factions that allowed us to leave behind traditions that had blinded our eyes. With our vision cleared, we were able to calculate the correct year, month, and day according to the ancient reckoning that was given to us by the Prophets.
For the first time in nearly 2,000 years a group of 40 Jews gathered on the celestially correct day, to declare the new month. The first sliver of the eighth moon was sighted just after sunset on November 10, 1999. Dr. Roy Hoffman of the Israeli New Moon Society shot the photograph on the back cover from the Mount of Olives. In accord with a 3,000-year-old rehearsal, we cast hands full of native Israeli barley onto the soil of the Mount of Olives. On the first new moon that the barley is aviv, we will declare the month of the Aviv. That day will be the first day of the 7th millennium; the Day of the LORD begins.
Within days, eight barley fields were planted in the land of Israel under the watchful eyes of Levites. Bruce Brill, who has been an integral part of the calendar project, has the primary barley field in front of his home in Tekoa, where Amos the Tekoan sheep herdsman prophesied of the "Day of the LORD." Micah and Shoshanna Harrari, the Jerusalem harpmakers, planted their barley field in Ramat Razael. Nehemiah Gordon, the Karaite, has been developing the criterion for judging the barley in Israel for over ten years.
This year there has been a drought in the land of Israel. The latter rains expected at the end of the feast of Sukkot did not arrive for over two months. The barley was late in sprouting and late in maturing this year. All of the fields that we had planted in the environs of Jerusalem were not aviv on the new moon of April 5th. But, Nehemiah and Bruce inspected nearly a dozen sites including a voluntary outcropping near Jerico. There in the Jordan valley, approximately 18 kilometers dead reckoning, they found a field with 30 - 60% aviv barley. Nehemiah's exclusive "barley slap" test confirmed their visual analysis. The barley was "AVIV" at sundown the day before the new moon was sighted. Plans to continue to search the Negev the following day were canceled. Both Bruce and Nehemiah were satisfied that the proximity to Jerusalem would qualify these fields during the Temple service period. If they are correct, we should see things begin to shake in early April. If the barley in Jerusalem is the qualifying benchmark, then we have until May 5th at sundown, before the shaking begins. If this spring comes and goes with peace and tranquillity, then we will know that the year has been miscalculated and we continue to serve and prepare. The Day of the LORD is at hand.
Rabbi Shaul spoke of the millennium of the LORD coming upon the inhabitants of the earth, "as a thief in the night." They cry out for the world government to deliver peace and security while the freedom to govern ourselves according to God's Torah is being wrestled from us. The inhabitants of the world are about to enter into the birthpangs of the Messiah, but are oblivious to the fact that the "Day of the LORD" is at hand. God's time reckoning and God's seasons (moedim) have been forsaken by most of the world and they have no idea what time it is on the clock of the heavens. Time has run out. In months, millions of lives will lay in ashes without a single warning - unless you speak up.
I will see you when the smoke clears,
Michael John Rood, Aviv 1, 6001 - the Day of the LORD,

My reply

They are forgetting Malachi 4:5: "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." Agape

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