***From Marilyn: I think instead of 6th seal, you mean 6th vial. Rev. 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. 15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. 16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev. `6:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Knowing that the trumpets are the initial wave of judgments on "that day" and the vials seem to occur over time, this sixth trumpet and vial seem to point to Armageddon which is the last battle. The seventh trumpet and vial, like the rest on the seventh day, seem to simply announce the victory, with "It is finished . . ." (for the 7th trump) and "It is done" (for the 7th vial). So the sixth trumpet and vial seem to be the ones wrapping up the action. The sixth vial makes reference to the "battle of that great day of God Almighty". That sure sounds like, along with the reference to the Euphrates and the 200 million man army, Armaggedon. In your two books you quoted the scriptures, but did not go into much detail. Do you believe these passages are referring to Armageddon?
***No. In Rev. 16:5, it says, "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art (at the Judgment Seat of Christ), and wast (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), and SHALT BE (at the Second Advent, still future), because thou hast JUDGED thus." Verse 7 says, "true and righteous are thy JUDGMENTS." Rev. 19:2 also says, true and righteous are his JUDGMENTS." Verse 6 says, "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent REIGNETH." This is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, the day of Christ's Coronation, the Judgment Seat of Christ, and the Marriage of the Lamb.
***Armageddon FOLLOWS Christ's return to Earth. Rev. 19:11 says, "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge (the Judgment of the Nations) and MAKE WAR" (Armageddon). Verse 19 says, "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to MAKE WAR AGAINST HIM that sat on the horse, and against his army." This is Christ's forces against Satan's forces, and can't take place until after Christ is on Earth. They can't fight "him that sat on the horse" until he is on Earth.
***We have to remember that between the 6th and 7th seals, between the 6th and 7th trumpets, and between the 6th and 7th vials, there are parenthetic portions. We have to look for match marks to see where they belong in the timeline.
***From Rev. 16:13 to 16 is a parenthetic portion. The Beast is mentioned. He rules the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation. The False Prophet is listed. He rules the last 3 1/2 years. The dragon (Satan) is the eighth (Rev. 17:11). He operates on his own the last 7.5 months of the Tribulation, after the Day of God's Wrath deposes the False Prophet from office. Therefore, I think the scope of these 4 verses cover the whole 7 years. Verse 16 says, "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon." This is at the end of the full 7 years, when the Judgment of the Nations takes place, and dominion is taken away from Satan. Then will come Satan's last-ditch stand.
If this is Armaggedon, the forces of the false prophet are fighting against Jesus and His saints who have resurrected bodies, assuring that there will be no casualties on our side. The third of the world that is killed have to be the entire 200 million man army (unless they release their nuclear weapons on the rest of the world in spite). If it is just the army that is killed the population of the world left would be 400 million (2/3rds). Since the description in verses 17-18 seem to describe nuclear weapons (which can't hurt the resurrected bodies of the army of God, us), ("power is in their mouth, and in their tails" . . . "men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths") my first assessment of the enemies of God, knowing they are going to lose, releasing their weapons on the rest of the world seems to be plausible.
***I don't think this is Armagedon, but 7.5 months before that, on the Day of God's Wrath. I think Rev. 9 is very symbolic, and that the locusts are actually demons released from their prison when the asteroid forms the Lake of Fire. Literal locusts eat green things and do not torment men with stings like scorpions. Rev. 9:19 says, "For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt." Just as the tail of the great red dragon is Satan, these tails are like serpents, i.e., demons.
Your assessment in your book that Armageddon will last 40 days and 40 nights seems to be based solely on Daniel 9:26 . . . "and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
***The length of Armageddon was the one thing that I couldn't figure out. In desperation, I said, "Lord, you're going to have to show me." It rained 40 days--IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. Who ever heard of such? This flood is listed under Great Disasters in the 1986 Information Please Almanac that I have. I also have the tab section of the Santa Ana Register with the beginning and ending dates. There were 2 terrible storms, and it didn't stop raining lightly between the two. Ed had to go out in the pouring rain and dig a ditch around our garage or the water would have gone through the garage like a river.
***Here is what the Almanac says on p. 431: "1969 Jan. 18-26, Southern California: floods and mudslides from heavy rains caused widespread property damage; at least 100 dead. Another downpour (Feb. 23-26) caused further floods and mudslides; at least 18 dead."
***President Nixon declared "the state a federal disaster area." The tab section also says, "Orange County was in the grip of a full blown disaster, probably the worst in its history." The last page says, "Wednesday February 26th. PEACE RETURNS TO THE VALLEY." I got the Tab Section "The Savage Storm" on Nisan 1. Only then did I realize that the whole thing had lasted 40 days. Only then did I see the tie-in with Dan. 26.
***You figure out how long you think Armageddon lasts.
Flash floods happen very quickly. It seems that when God is attacking the new world order with impervious forces, the battle would be very short and bloody. When Satan deceives the nations at the end of the millennium for his final rebellion Jesus quickly consumes them with fire. What makes the battle of Armageddon different from that confrontation?
***Fire comes down and destroys them at the end of the Millennium. It doesn't at Armageddon.
We know that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire after the battle of Armageddon. Are all the other fallen angels and demons thrown into the lake of fire at this time as well? If so, how then, since Satan is not omnipresent, could he deceive all of the nations without the aid of his "helpers"?
***Peace, true peace, rules after Armageddon.
You also believe that the battle of Armageddon ends after the judgment of the Nations (since you believe it is 40 days and nights long). Is there evidence in the Word of that sequence besides Daniel 9:26. It seems that the first thing that Jesus would do after touching down on earth would be to evict the poachers after the lease has run out. Rev. 19:11-21 indicates that this is the case when it infers that the battle begins immediately after He comes "with His armies". Then the Judgment of the Nations right after a brief, bloody battle would serve to remove the final "goats" that were not previously removed through the wrath and Armageddon (which if the 6th seal and 6th vial apply to this battle, could it not be considered a part of the wrath?). How can the judgment seat of Christ be concluded before the conclusion of Armageddon? Is He going to gather the goats even while a battle is going on?
***I think the Judgment Seat of Christ is held IN HEAVEN the same day that Christ is crowned King of kings and Lord of Lords and given his kingdom. I also think that the Judgment of the Nations is ON EARTH 7.5 months later, when the full 7 years have run their course. Rev. 12:14 says, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from THE FACE OF THE SERPENT." Satan is around until the full end of the 7 year Tribulation. He acts as the eighth (Rev. 17:11) during the 7.5 months.
At the conclusion of the Judgment of the Nations he says to the sheep, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." If Armageddon is still going on then He is offering them a kingdom that is yet to be completely conquored. That doesn't seem to fit.
***Don't forget that the Israelites did not conquer the Promised Land overnight. Also, we have inherited things that we have not yet received. Yet, they are sure because the Lord has promised.
Verse 31 of Matthew 25 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." That verse seems to say that at the time that He comes in His Glory with us to fight Armageddon (according to Rev. 19), THEN (right after that order of business is done) He will sit on His judgment throne to judge the nations. In Rev. 9, right after it talks about a third of mankind being killed in this final battle, it says in verse 20, "And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues (all the judgments including Armageddon) yet repented not . . .". It seems like these remaining, clearly after Armageddon, will still have to be judged at the Judgment seat of Christ.
***When Christ returns, "in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and HASTING righteousness" (Isa. 16:5). It doesn't say righteousness is there that second. Amos 9:11 says, "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will BUILD IT as in the days of old." Acts 15:16 says, "I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up."
There have been many questions in all of the above, but let me recap a few of them.
1) Do you believe that the sixth trumpet and vial refer to the battle of Armaggedon?
2) Do you believe that the symbolism in Rev 9:17-19 refers to nuclear weapons?
3) If you concur that the 6th trump and vial is referring to the preparation of a future Armaggeddon, do you believe that (since war involves wrath and it is mentioned in the trumps and vials) that Armageddon is a part of the wrath of God?
4) Why do you believe that the battle of Armaggedon must last 40 days and 40 nights (besides Daniel 9:26) in the light of who Satan is fighting (invincible forces) and how quick the rebellion will be resolved when Satan gathers the nations at the end of the millennium?
5) If Armageddon goes on for 40 days and nights, how can the Judgment seat of Christ be concluded while there are still "goats" in the world waging the battle of Armageddon?
***I think the Judgment Seat of Christ is held in HEAVEN on the Day that Christ receives his crown and kingdom (Rev. 11:15-18). The Judgment of the Nations is held 7.5 months later, on EARTH. Armageddon follows the Judgment of the Nations, when dominion is taken away from Satan at the end of the 2560 days of the full 7-year Tribulation.
As always your insight is deeply appreciated....I have learned much from you in the last two years. The paradigm shift you have given me has opened up incredible revelation from the Lord. I am eternally thankful to you for your ministry....Your Brother in Jesus
"Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone;". Later, in the same chapter, verse 38 states in regard to the actual exodus, "And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle." I have been praying for my three Poodles for years now - that God will be merciful and not leave them here to suffer alone. Each time I begin to fear of doubt, God sends more proof. Just a few weeks ago, He reminded me of Acts 11:14 which states, "....thou and all thy house shall be saved". Pastors typically teach this verse to mean that salvation will come to a believer's entire family. But Paul didn't use the word "family". He used the word "house" which, in the original Greek, means "dwelling". My dogs live in my house or dwelling. So, I am taking God at his word. I think there are many people who have pets who should be comforted by these scripture verses. I and my three Poodles will see you and your Yorkie at His throne. God Bless You.
If a graven image is all statues, then we must dismantle the Lincoln Memorial and all other statues of human/non-humans. A statue only becomes a graven image if it is thought to be worthy of homage and prayer. I most surely believe God/Christ was speaking in the Biblical sense of who/what is a God and forbidding people to accept any other God in the form of graven images, idols, whatever. Praying to a golden calf because the person thinks it is alive and capable of action makes that calf an idol/graven image. Looking at the Lincoln Memorial, Lincoln sitting in a chair, is just what it is, a remembrance of Lincoln. If a person worships and prays to that statue, it would become an idol/graven image to that person and that would be unacceptable to God.
It is, then, the person's _intent_ that qualifies pictures, statues, or any other object in the entire world.
Surely you must agree that "no graven image" applies to worship rather than no graven image anywhere for any reason.
I totally agree that no one should give graven images, statues, pictures, etc. the essence of life and pray to these things; but I do not believe that every statue in the world should come down because there should be no graven images, period. Many times Israel brought back their calves, bulls, etc. to pray to. God naturally condemned that because there is no other God besides Him.
If the interpretation is absolutely no pictures, statues/graven images, etc. then we must destroy every picture we have of family members, weddings, monuments, statues everywhere. If, however, our interpretation is that God forbids our WORSHIP of anything other than Him, then the identity of anything worshipped other than Him becomes a true idol, graven image, whatever.
What about a nativity scene? Are those bad? There is baby Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the three kings, maybe an angel, a donkey and a camel. I have one, do I need to junk it? I don't think so; it is a remembrance of Jesus' birth. I don't pray to it, do you know anyone who does?
I do not assume I know the inner beliefs/rituals of the Morman Church, Church of Christ, Methodist, etc. so I can't make a judgment about these faiths. Persons who aren't Catholics but do make judgments about that faith based on hear-say or what their parents told them about Catholics (although they were not Catholics), should not do so. Also, a person cannot/should not make a judgment about a religion based on what one individual of that faith believes or does. You go to the Baptist church. Do you believe absolutely, exactly the same thing as every other person in that church and the pastor? I doubt it.
The core belief of the Catholic church is exactly as the Baptist church. No one comes to the Father except through Christ. We absolutely believe that. Having been both, the biggest difference I see is the Catholic church is big on the love of God and showing that love to others, whereas the Baptist church, to me, is always looking for another sin to preach against. I prefer to be with people that promote the love of God and show it in every day life. If there is trouble, you can count on Catholics to come through for you....Love
I can assure you, that through the 1950's and 1960's, the text of Ex. 20:4,5 , "Thou shalt not make unto thee ANY graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM." was never taught.
They only taught the modified 10 commandments as listed on your last P & C. This was in the official Catechism, something everyone had to learn by rote.
When I heard about this, I thought it took amazing nerve to dare to edit the 10 commandments, as if the Catholic Church knew better than God.
Regarding statues, the official line is that they are not there to be worshipped, just to remind you of the saint. I am not so sure that people in simpler cultures and civilizations can or do make so fine a distinction. Perhaps even the simpler people in advanced societies can't make this distinction.
This may be the reason the commandment is there in the first place!
Luke 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left."
Luke 17:35 "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left." Verse 36, "Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
These last two verses support a daytime rapture (I think the second rapture.)
Seems to me verse 34 is in concrete, "I tell you in that night..." Didn't say, "maybe night time," didn't say, "make a guess", didn't say, "search and search the Bible and you might figure it out," does say, "I tell you, in that night." How do you analyze "I tell you, in that night"?
I'm for our time midnight or after but before daylight on June 11., our Sunday, if that is truly Biblical Pentecost. June 11 for Israel would be from 6 p.m. Saturday, until 6 p.m. Sunday, so for the rapture to be at night in Israel on the 11th, it would have to happen, our time and their time, after midnight on Sunday morning.
"After the 2nd Temple was destroyed the rabbis chose 6 of Sivan for Shavuot, always counting 50 days from Nisan 15. History reports that the Kohenim of the Temple counted 50 days from Yom HaBikkurim, which itself is always the first day of the week after the Passover, therefore the Scriptural Shavuot is always on the 7th first day of the week after Passover."
Shavuot, (Rabbinic/P'rushim dated), Feast of Weeks, 6 Sivan, June 9, 2000.
Shavuot (Tzaddikim,) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 8 Sivan, June 11, 2000.
"Festivals begin at sundown the prior Gregorian day." Love
> > How do you analyze "I tell you, in that night"?
It may be night in Jerusalem. All these terms listed in Mk. 13:25f could indicate the 12 hours of night. It says, "Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning. Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."
There is both night and day on Earth at one time. That could be why we wouldn't know this.
> > "After the 2nd Temple was destroyed the rabbis chose 6 of Sivan for Shavuot, always counting 50 days from Nisan 15. History reports that the Kohenim of the Temple counted 50 days from Yom HaBikkurim, which itself is always the first day of the week after the Passover, therefore the Scriptural Shavuot is always on the 7th first day of the week after Passover."
Fifty days from Nisan 15 doesn't seem right to me. Lev. 23:5,6 has Nisan 14 as Passover and Nisan 15 as the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Then v. 11 says of Firstfruits, "And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it."
I think that since all the feasts were holy convocations (Lev. 23:2,4,37) when they had to rest, they were all called sabbaths. That is what sabbath means, rest. Josephus showed that Firstfruits was on the 16th.
In Ant. III. X. 5, the Pharisee priest Josephus said, "In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries...the Passover...The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month...But on the SECOND DAY OF UNLEAVENED BREAD, WHICH IS THE SIXTEENTH day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them."
I think so too. Verse 15 says, "And ye shall count unto you FROM the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering (Nisan 16); seven sabbaths shall be complete." Seven weeks were to be complete. Since Firstfruits was on Sunday in 30 AD, one would count from Sunday to Sunday (end of week 1), to Sunday (end of week 2), to Sunday (end of week 3), to Sunday (end of week 4), to Sunday (end of week 5), to Sunday (end of week 6), to Sunday (end of week 7). At that point "seven sabbaths (weeks) shall be complete." Then the next day, Monday, would be Pentecost. Acts 2:1 says, "And when the day of Pentecost was FULLY COME." To me, this puts Pentecost on Sivan 7.
Since the Pharisees as a whole did not accept Christ, that may have been why they listed Passover on Nisan 15 and completely skipped both the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Firstfruits on the Talmudic Calendar. They list both Sivan 6 and 7 for Pentecost.
> > Scriptural Shavuot is always on the 7th first day of the week after Passover
Even counting it like that, it would be plus one day (7 x 7 = 49).
> > Shavuot, (Rabbinic/P'rushim dated), Feast of Weeks, 6 Sivan, June 9, 2000. Shavuot (Tzaddikim,) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost, 8 Sivan, June 11, 2000.
Then Sivan 7 may hit it right on the head because that is what they left out. Why? For the same reason they say the Passover is Nisan 15? :-) Agape
I don't see how. The first Rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1. The Tribulation starts in Rev. 6. The 144,000 are in Rev. 7, the same chapter that talks about the Tribulation saints being caught up in the second Rapture. Rev. 7:9, 14 says, "a great multitude, which no man could number, OF ALL NATIONS (including Israel), and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
> > In chapter 14 of rev it says that they (144,000) are with Jesus on the mount of olives, which is where he touches down at the second rapture. It says "on the mount Sion," not the mount of olives. These are singing a new song "before the throne...and the elders." The elders are seen in Heaven in Rev. 4:4.
> > at the second rapture he has people with him.
People are with him at the Second Advent, 7 months after the second Rapture (Eze. 39:12). Zech. 14;5 says, " the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." That is the Second Advent.
Mt. 7:15 says, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Agape
On the other hand, I suppose we have no idea how fast everything "could" go after the rapture. The restrainer is removed, a new spirit is unleashed throughout the world. Lots of things may change very fast.
Because the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, prophesy 1260 days, the first half of the Tribulation, it seems that there has to be something there at the temple area to measure as the Tribulation begins. Rev. 11:1,2 says, "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."
I think the Tribulation will start when the Beast and False Prophet confirm the peace treaty on Pentecost, May 28, 2001. It might be possible to have quite a lot done on the Temple between Sept. 13, 2000 and May 28, 2001.
Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." This is the exact number of days, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning between Pentecost in 2001 and the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. The Jews sacrifice during the first half of the Tribulation. Sacrificing stops when the False Prophets sits in the Temple as if he is God Mid-Trib. Agape
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