Pro and Con 488

Posted 3-17-00

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From: Jim Bramlett: Re: "Jesus Day"

Marilyn, you'll like this...

I discovered an organization that has proclaimed June 10, 2000 as "Jesus Day," saying in a print advertisement, "The first day of a whole new way of living."

They may be more correct than they could ever imagine!
Web site at

God bless, Jim
"The World's Greatest Truths" at:

My reply

Thanks. Oh wow! they are planning a really big day anyway. The number of organizations in Partners in Jesus Day is surprising. The Canning Hungry plan the largest collection of food in history. The list starts off with Mission America, a coalition of over 100 denominations, includes Promise Keepers and the March for Jesus, and ends with the Salvation Army. Mainstay Ministries plans a pastor's conference in 150 cities and hopes between 5 and 6000 will attend. I hope the day exceeds their considerable expectations. Agape

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My reply

The counting of the omer is to count 49 days plus one from the Feast of Firstfruits to Pentecost. See. Lev. 23:15,16.

As to the planetary lineup, Lu. 21:25,28 says, "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring...And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Agape

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Subject: Your chronology Your reckoning of years is erred in an overall conceptual manner. Each of the patriarchs was not born on exactly the same day of the year. At an average of 6 months deviation, you will acquire years of error rather quickly.

My reply

Jews count part of a year as a whole year. They also call a baby one year old the whole first year. King's reigns are reckoned from the beginning of the Jewish Regnal Year (Nisan 1), no matter when they actually took office. Try to get hold of Martin Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology (2 vol.). You may have to do like I did, use it in a Seminary Library, because it may be a reserve book. When you get hold of a book on Bible Chronology, check to see if they have Noah's Flood pegged at 1656 AH. If not, they are not apt to be correct. Agape

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Subject: Ranks of the Body I have been visiting your site for awhile now and must say I am very impressed with the knowledge you have acquired and share with everyone. The amount of time you have spent in study is amazing. I have only been studying end time prophecy for about three years and most of that is through other peoples efforts (i.e. I read all the books written on the subject I can. And have been using the internet a lot.) I find myself thinking that you are very knowledgeable and have a lot more truth than many.

Here's my question. The bible says the dead in Christ shall rise first then we shall join them in the air (those who go in the first rapture). You say that this first group is the bride. ( I agree) What I want to know is what about the dead in Christ who didn't have the full oil of the Holy Spirit or who weren't living fully and hadn't been repenting daily? Will these be part of the Bride or will they just be there and become guests later. I am curious mainly because my husband died Dec. 27 1999. He was a Christian man but I am not sure he would have been in the first rapture (course I may be wrong because only God knows our heart.) Will the Bride of Christ be intermingled with the other members of the Body? Will the ranks co-exist? I know this might just take conjecture on your part but I would like to hear your point of view on this.

I want to say, I bought your three books and am currently reading "Heaven Found" I am fascinated by this book. Thank you for your insights. I thank the Lord for the wisdom He has imparted to you. May God continue to bless you. Thank you in advance for any answer you may have.

My reply

Thanks for all your kind words. is what about the dead in Christ who didn't have the full oil of the Holy Spirit or who weren't living fully and hadn't been repenting daily? I don't think we are told definitely, but the Lord is fair. If someone deserves to be with the first group, I think they will be with them. If they deserve to be with the second group, I think they will be with the second group. Will the Bride of Christ be intermingled with the other members of the Body? Will the ranks co-exist? I don't know except for certain times. At the general assembly of Mk. 13:27, all are gathered for the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place that day. At the Second Advent, he comes with all his saints (Zech. 14:5). Agape

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...I would like your valued opinion on something, 1 Thes.4 v.(14-17) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. (Jesus ascended, 40 days after He rose, he took with him those saints who rose with him 40 days earlier, those that were seen by many in the holy city. Could they be a token, of the full harvest yet to come, just as the omer of barley (the flour), made from the sheafs of barley picked on Firstfruits, and waved before the Lord, was the token of a full harvest yet to come? v15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (go before) them which are asleep. v16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (with the punctuation here, do you think that it is possible for the dead in Christ to be risen first, and then also to be seen in the holy city Jerusalem by many as before?) v17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (we, together with the already risen dead seen on earth are then gathered up in the Rapture?) A type of fulfillment of the shadow cast by that event on resurrection day in 30 A.D. Jesus died on Passover, was raised three days later on Firstfruits, and ascended forty days after that. Could God's timer for catching away "The Church" be set to go off forty days after Firstfruits, which would be Pentecost. Could the risen dead who will be seen by many once again, be a warning sign given by God, for us to know that our redemption is only 40 days away!

I would appreciate your thoughts on this Marilyn. The only thing that makes me wonder about this concept, if indeed it is so, is where or how all these risen saints would fit into Jerusalem.

Thanks once again for all your time and effort that you give so lovingly and freely for the advancement of the work for our Lord Jesus Christ. Agape. Kind Regards

My reply

> > Jesus ascended, 40 days after He rose, he took with him those saints who rose with him 40 days earlier

I think Jesus took the rest of the Firstfruits sheaf to Heaven on Resurrection Day, not 40 days later. Mt. 27:52,53 says, " And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." On that same day, in Jn. 20:17, Jesus told Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Later that day, he could be touched. Mt. 28:9 says, "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Psa. 68:18 says, "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them." Eph. 4:8-12 says, "he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive (took the saints from the earthly Paradise to the heavenly Paradise), and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ."

> > Could they be a token, of the full harvest yet to come, just as the omer of barley (the flour), made from the sheafs of barley picked on Firstfruits, and waved before the Lord, was the token of a full harvest yet to come?

The sheaf harvested on Firstfruits represents a different group from those represented by the two loaves baked with flour and leaven. Christ was the seed. He was sinless, unleavened. Those that came out of their graves and appeared in Jerusalem were the rest of that sheaf. The "sheaf of the firstfruits" was waved before the Lord on the Feast of Firstfruits (Lev. 23:11).

On Pentecost/Feast of Weeks, after the countdown of 7 weeks plus one day, "Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be made of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD."

Remember when Joseph was in Egypt, he took up a fifth of the grain in the 7 good years? What are two tenths? One fifth. I think we are represented by the fifth of the grain caught up in the 7 good years, of which 2000 seems to be the 7th.

Look how Gen. 41:33 is worded: "Let Pharaoh do this, and let him appoint officers over the land, and take up the fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years." Gen. 47:26 says, "And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh (the king) should have the fifth part."

I think the sheaf at Firstfruits was barley. The two tenth deals on Pentecost are wheat. We are the wheat (Mt. 3:12). I think that since the one fifth is equal to the two tenths, we are the wheat that is to be brought out of our habitations on Pentecost.

> > For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (with the punctuation here, do you think that it is possible for the dead in Christ to be risen first, and then also to be seen in the holy city Jerusalem by many as before?)

It is possible, but I'm not sure it will happen. Scripture was originally written without punctuation. This time, Christ comes quickly (Rev. 22:20). There are many living that will disappear to be a witness to the fact that there is a Pre-Trib Rapture. Many shall see the Rapture and trust in the Lord.

Psa. 40:1-3 says, "I waited patiently (as in Rev. 3:10) for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (the Rapture) also out of an horrible pit (as Jeremiah was brought up out of a miry pit), out of the miry clay (out of these bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (a planet, Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

> > Could God's timer for catching away "The Church" be set to go off forty days after Firstfruits, which would be Pentecost

Jesus' Ascension Day was 40 days after Resurrection Day. On that day, he told the apostles "that they should not depart from Jerusalem but WAIT for the PROMISE of the Father" (Acts 1:4). They had to wait patiently another 10 days to Pentecost, the 50th day (Lev. 23:15,16). "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication" (Acts 1:14) until "the day of Pentecost was fully come" (Acts 2:1). Then the Spirit of Christ descended on them. These 10 days may represent the 10 days of Rev. 2:10. It says, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days (not 7 years): be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Lev. 23:22 says, "thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger." I think this wheat that is left behind represents the foolish Laodicean virgins. Agape

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Subject: Lookin forward to fudge?
Greetings again Marilyn, I'm the "fudge" lady...are we still on? Just wanted you to know that these dates are just too good to be true! My birthday is June 10th, what a celebration day! Also my husband's birthday is May 5th and my daughter's birthday is June 21st!

Anyway just wanted to send my love to you and let you know I'm still watching! God Bless you and your family...see you real soon!

My reply

You bet we're still on. On yes! what a BIRTHday celebration you would have if the Rapture happens June 10. That is when the church will be born into another new world. Isn't it something that the end of the 2nd week of the final countdown of the omer is May 5, when the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn line up. These are the same heavenly bodies that were represented by the candlestick. We even have the Moon joining the lineup. Agape

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I wrote and asked you a question several months ago, and found your response in one of the Pros & Cons. It answered my concerns completely and I just want to thank you.

You are so blessed to have this great understanding of God's Word and the exciting times we are living in. Sometimes I have to read a chapter 3 times before it sinks in(!) But I must tell you that I am enjoying my life immensely in this waiting period of Jesus' return! Everything I do....every beautiful sunset I see, or kindness I experience, or pain/disappointment that comes my way....I view it in the light of expectancy and hope. Even while I'm painting the inside of my house, I'm aware I'm just here for a little while. I'll drop everything and go when I hear that trumpet! My only sadness is that not many share this joy with me. But everytime I check your website, I am aware I'm not alone

Just want to thank you so very much for sharing your knowledge with us. I live with such hope,....whether Jesus returns this year, next year, whenever. I just feel that it is soon. I pray the Lord finds me & my family worthy, because I am SO READY to go!!!!! I'll look for you in the New Jerusalem, Marilyn! Everyone says I have a 'voice that carries' so you'll probably hear me before you see me! God bless you and your family.

My reply

Thanks a million. See ya there. Agape

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One way that the word "err" [to make a mistake] is pronounced sounds indistinguishable from UR.

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From: David Hill
Subject: Rapture Typology
After all, Yeshuah did not weep over Jerusalem because He hated it and wanted to see it destroyed. He wept over Jerusalem because He loved it, and wanted to bless His Earthly Inheiritance, of which the Heavenly Jerusalem is the type...

Psa 126:6 He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless COME AGAIN with rejoicing, bringing his SHEAVES with him.

"Even so come Lord Yeshua...
Ah, I posted this the other day, and when I read it from the doves, the significance of what I wrote was obvious. I was waiting to see if anyone else caught it, but apparently they didn't. What you have here is a direct reference to the Rapture, in the Psalms.

So, with this in mind, I wanted to update my standing on the timing of the Rapture.

There are two main times that the Rapture seems to apply to. You have the spring time harvest, and the fall harvest. Both of these have clusters of Rapture typology surrounding them, and in fact, both would be applicable. For the Church would be seen in one of them, and the trib saints (144,000) in the other. Some would call this latter one, the second or Pre Wrath Rapture.

The question is, which one is which. I believed originally, that Pentecost would be the time of the Rapture, along with MJAgee. Then I ran the whole gambit, looking at each important Jewish Holiday. Now, however, with the above combined verses, I have seen things that point to only one time phrame for the Rapture. But this was really necessarily, for me anyways, so as to better understand the typology that will be fulfilled during the tribulation, after the Church has departed.

I made a mistake saying that the Church is not specifically compared to wheat, for the Apostle Paul compares us to 'bread', and this would either be barley, or wheat bread. The wheat would of course be more applicable. Hence, along those lines, I stated that the 'many' of matt, that were ressurected, were then probably caught up on Pentecost, thus fulfilling the typology. However, the one problem with this, is that they were ressurected on the same day as Yeshuah. Hence, they automatically don't apply to Pentecost, and there fore, that Holiday has still to be fulfilled. In fact, only the Barley harvest typology has been fulfilled, and assuredly, they ascended with Yeshuah. After all, just who do you suppose composed the clouds that Yeshuah ascended in?

Also, I said that the Rapture would be seen better in the birds migrating out of Israel, before the storms of winter, however, this actually applys more to the trib saints, who will 'fly' into the wilderness before the 'storm' of the great tribulation arrives-the time of Jacob's trouble, which would be the last half of the trib. But with the Church, our flying out at spring would apply better, for then they will be with the Lord, and enter into His rest of the Kingdom-regardless of what they are then doing. This is better pictured by the spring harvest. This is also seen by the verse from solomon that says, "Like a bird on a wing, the curse wont causeless COME." This isn't an exact quote, but this is saying that the curse (trib) won't come without reason, and this is the same as the Birds COMING, hence this is refering to the curse coming in the spring, like a migrating bird, not leaving like a migrating bird going to africa.

This symbolism would also be the same with the sheep coming out of the fold, into the green pastures of the millenium. This is of course, in agreement with the Psalms that He showed me that night (77) picturing the Rapture either in spring, when the shepherd leads the flock out to pasture, or the fall, when he leads them into the fold. Hence then, the fold becomes synonomous with the reorganization of the theocracy at mt. sinai, in the mid of the trib (for israel), where the church will already be. Along with this, in the constellations, the big sheepfold (dipper) would picture the church, and the little one would picture Israel during the trib. The church is drawn towards Bootes, and they to Auriga. Auriga pictures mt. sinai during the trib in the falltime, and Bootes pictures Yeshuah at the Rapture, in the springtime. This event is being pictured now, with the full moon occuring in Virgo, where bootes is located-hence the spring, not fall.

Concerning the Rapture in the Songs, I still believe that it is pictured in chapter four and five. I haven't as yet looked at this closely, however, I believe that the late spring season of Pentecost will be found in it. When do they start getting honey from the comb? This would be one indication.

I also found a verse concerning the Rapture, that was closely tied into the coming judgement on America-Ephraim, which said that they would be 'cut off' refering to the change in dispensation that will occur at the Rapture. However, what I missed in the very next verses, was the phrase that the wild beast will 'summer' on them (tender grapes ripening on the vine), or derive their food for the summer, from this judgement. Point is, this places the judgement (change in dispensation) in the spring. When does the tender grape first appear? I believe, in the spring time, around Pentecost, if I am not mistaken.

The life from the dead symbolism is pictured from winter to spring, though I can't seem to place the plowing season in Israel with this (though it of course fits perfectly with the plowing season in America). But, in a way, even this fits, for those constellations that refer to the Harrowing (ploughing) of Hell, will be visible at night time during this part of the year! And of course, if you can't see it, then it isn't a sign, so maybe this was how it was supposed to be understood from the start. In fact, if I am not mistaken, the full moon in june (pentecost month) would occur in the constellation of sagitarius, the very constellation portraying the harrowing of hell.

Now, look at the above verses that I combined in the title. Yeshua went out weeping 2,000 yrs ago, bearing precious seeds. When He comes again for the Church, He will be bringing His sheaves with Him, to reunite them with their bodies, now glorified. This would automatically place the Rapture at the time of Passover or Pentecost! And since the Passover typology has already been fulfilled, then it would obviously be seen in Pentecost. And this must be refering to the Rapture, for His return at the end of the Trib, we know to be pictured around the time of Tabernacles, when no sheaves would be pictured. As well, the rejoicing pictures the Marriage, which is of course synonomous with Pentecost.

So then, this clears up the ten days doesn't it? I believe that the ten days of persecution that endtimes smyrna experiences, is synonomous with the Beloved entering into His garden, pictured in Songs 4-5. Well, what other Ten Day period is linked to Pentecost? For, Yeshuah Ascended TEN DAYS BEFORE PENTECOST, and then TEN DAYS LATER, the Holy Spirit was poured. So, it would make complete sense, for Him to RETURN TO HIS GARDEN TEN DAYS BEFORE PENTECOST, to COMMUNE WITH HIS BRIDE (the wine in Songs 5), thus ENLIGHTENING THEM (the Honey in Songs 5), which would also lead to PERSECUTION, for those who live Godly in Christ Yeshuah, will suffer persecution. Then, ten days later, He will catch His bride Home to be where He is, thus fulfilling the typology of Pentecost and the Sheaves. Leaving only Tabernacles to be fulfilled. This, 'entering the garden' by the bridegroom, is the same as Yeshuah 'walking amoung the seven candlesticks', and will assuredly be noticable ten days before Pentecost. And as well, this would be the Seven Times of the Church, hence a Time would be from Pentecost to Pentecost, or in other words, a complete cycle.

Another thought occured to me from Jerimiah, that agrees with all this, but unfortunately, I can't remember what it was. When I do, I will send it in. So,it seems obvious now, that all the endtimes events are to be compared to the fall harvest season. The 144,000 are seen in type by the figs or possibly the grapes, Moses and Elijah would be the Olives, the male child is the tender grape etc. So, that leaves the Church in the two loaves of bread, to fulfill the holiday of Pentecost, which MJ has been saying all along. Which is why I still believe what I told her: she was the 'second' Mary Magdalene...

My reply

Thanks for all your nice words.

> > in the constellations, the big sheepfold (dipper) would picture the church, and the little one would picture Israel during the trib.

Please take a look at this again. You may have some information about these symbols in the constellations that I do not have, but from what I do know, the sheepfolds could represent the reverse.

Lu. 12:32,33 says, "Fear not, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the HEAVENS that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth." The LESSER SHEEPFOLD is closest to the great king (CEPHEUS). Both of these are the highest. POLARIS is the star around which all others seem to revolve. It is under the foot of CEPHEUS and part of the LESSER SHEEPFOLD. This sheepfold is also closest to CASSIOPEIA, which represents the Bride of Christ made queen.

A star in the LESSER SHEEPFOLD is KOCHAB (WAITING HIM WHO COMETH). Another is AL KAID (Arabic, THE ASSEMBLED). There is also AL PHERKADAIN (Heb., THE REDEEMED ASSEMBLY) and AL GEDI (THE KID, THE CHOSEN OF THE FLOCK). Also, the LESSER SHEEPFOLD has 7 principle stars, called SEPTENTRIONES (THE SEVEN WHICH TURN). This reminds me of the 7 stars Christ is holding in his right hand in the Preview of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 1:16. There are altogether 24 stars in this constellation. This reminds me of the 24 elders in Rev. 4 and 5.

The lambs in the GREATER SHEEPFOLD are going out the doorway toward the SICKLE in the hand of the good shepherd, BOOTES (TO COME). In Rev. 14:15,16, just before the vine of the Earth is cast into the "winepress of the wrath of God," we find mention of a sickle. It says, "And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy SICKLE, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." To me, this strongly suggests that the GREATER SHEEPFOLD represents the "GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number" that come out of the "GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:9,14).

A star in the GREATER SHEEPFOLD is DUBHEH (A HERD OF ANIMALS). Another is DUBHEH LACHAR (THE LATTER FLOCK)". (Seiss says, "Dubheh Lachar, the latter herd or flock, as distinguished from a former in Ursa Minor", the modern name for the LESSER SHEEPFOLD.) EL ACOLA is Arabic for THE SHEEPFOLD. MERACH in Hebrew means THE FLOCK, in Arabic, THE PURCHASED. Another star is FENT HAR (THE ONE WHO TERRIFIES THE SERPENT). Those believers in the Great Tribulation flee the serpent, and the Earth opens her mouth and swallows up "the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth" (Rev. 12:16). The star CAB'D AL ASAD means THE MULTITUDE, MANY ASSEMBLED. Another star is TALITHA. That is interesting since Mark 5:41 says, "And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise."

On page 128, in his Gospel in the Stars, Seiss says, "The picture is that of the seed of faith spoken of in the text in its twofoldness--the Church of the first-born round about the throne, signified by the Polar centre, and the Church of the after-born in still ampler numbers, led and guarded by the great Bootes amid the everlasting pastures."

> When does the tender grape first appear?

Unger's Bible Handbook says that grapes begin to ripen in Sivan and that honey is collected in the Jordan valley May to July. The plowing season in Israel is in the fall, just as soon as the former rains soften the ground. Agape

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Updated 3-17-00