Pro and Con 49, Uploaded 1-16-98
...a thought just struck me about 1998. With the way you and Bob Ware and Mr. Dutcher and others have come up with 1998 as a year for the rapture, what if - and I hope this is NOT the case - but what if OUR 1998 is NOT the same as God's 1998? What if we are about 2 years or a year off and in fact we are not IN God's 1998, but in 1996 or just GOING into 1997 now? With Israel having their 50th year in 1998, it sure looks like it should be the RIGHT year, but everyone thought that 1988 would be the year cause of the FOURTY since 1948 and all the number 40's that God TESTED Israel with. I am wondering if now, 1998 does not look TOO obvious! It IS strange that the number 1998 keeps coming up in all these number factors and I think it is TRUE that the rapture will be in 1998, but then it HIT me - what if we are not actually IN 1998!
GEeeessssh! I hope this is NOT the case!.
...Looks like we are about down to FIVE months now, right??? [we hope!]
My reply ...Since the Jewish calendar began, the years have been meticulously counted. I can't see how we can be off much in our calculations. However, in thinking of our years and Jewish years, it is very easy to get off by one year because their year starts in Sept/Oct. It is better to just count in Jewish years, then after you arrive at the final result compare it to our year.
Since the shortened Tribulation has to be 2300 days, I tried sliding the whole thing back and forth across the years. Nothing would fit but from the Feast of Weeks in 2001 to the Feast of Trumpets in 2007. I feel confident that things are in their correct time slot. The end year, the Jewish 5768, has to be a leap year so the time from Tishri 1 to the following Nisan 1 will be 7 months instead of 6 (see Ezek. 39:12), and 5768 is a leap year.
As for the 40 years and 1988, people who latched on to 1988 forgot to pay attention to "and putteth forth leaves" in the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34. I wrote Hal Lindsey after his Late Great Planet Earth came out and told him that 1988 was too early for Israel did not grow leaves in 1948, but she did in 1967 (Gaza, Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights). I copyrighted my first book in 1987 to prove I knew nothing was going to happen in 1988. Time proved me right on that.
I have read your book The End of the Age at least twice. It is
fascinating. However, I disagree with your estimation of the identity
of the two witnesses. Moses died and he will receive a resurrection
body (if he hasn't already). He cannot be killed. Therefore, I
believe the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah, the only two
people who have not seen death.
It is possible. However, Enoch was a Gentile. He is a type of a Rapture of Gentiles. Taken up before disaster struck at the time of the Flood, Enoch is a good type of the Pre-Trib Rapture.
During the Tribulation, the Lord will again be dealing mainly with Israel. This fits Moses better than Enoch, who was not an Israelite. Jude 9 says, "Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses." Why dispute about his body if Moses was not coming back?
Zech. 4:14 says that the two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side "are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Who stood by Jesus at the Transfiguration? Moses and Elijah.
In Rev. 11, the things done by the two witnesses fit the powers first wielded by Moses and Elijah.
Of course, I am familiar with I Thess. 4:17. But, I firmly believe
that since Moses died once already, he will not be resurrected to be
one of the witnesses and then killed. He cannot be killed if he has
already died once. He will have already received his glorified body,
and with that, he would be unable to be killed.
Also, on another note, I did not quite understand the subject of
"Possible Rapture in Different Time Zones" on your home page. Am I
missing something? Can you explain...
Another reply of his
Are you saying "It is appointed to man to die once" (except Moses)?
There is a whole generation who do not have to die. I Thess. 4:17 says, "Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds."
...Re: Moses vs. Enoch. To me, we were shown whether it is Moses or Enoch at the Transfiguration. It is not a big point, but just be sure your interpretation is not given more weight than what Scripture tells us outright.
Rev. 11:4 says, "These (the two witnesses) are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth."
Zech. 4:14 says that the two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side "are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth." Who stood by Jesus at the Transfiguration? "Elias with Moses" (Mark 9:4).
Moses has been thought to represent those who have died and yet are part of a Rapture. Elijah represents those who have not died and are part of a Rapture. If it can happen to them, it can happen to us.
I Thess. 4:16,17 depicts two groups, "the DEAD in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are ALIVE and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."
Consider what Heb. 11:35-40 says: "Women received their dead raised to life AGAIN (if Lazarus was, why not Moses?)...that they might obtain A BETTER RESURRECTION...And these all (including "Moses," verse 23), having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."
> Are you saying "It is appointed to man to die once" (except Moses)?
There are other well-documented exceptions. For instance, through Elijah, the LORD raised the widow's son in I Kings 17:17-22. "And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." If it can happen to this child, it can happen to Moses.
Lazarus was brought back to life by Jesus. John 11:43,44 says, "Lazarus, come forth, And he that was dead came forth." If it happened to Lazarus, it can happen to Moses.
> I did not quite understand the subject of "Possible Rapture in Different Time Zones"
If the Rapture is to be figured Jerusalem time, the various time zones around this globe would have to be taken into consideration. Here in California, I think we are 10 hours behind Jerusalem. Therefore, the Rapture could take place on May 30 here.
Just bought your new book today here in ... Iowa where I'm on
assignment. Looking forward to reading it!!
I have one non-prophesy question for you. I hope you take the time to
answer it. Does the Bible answer the question of salvation for people
who have not heard the Gospel?? Your lessons have encouraged me to
spread the word and I know I'll get this question sooner or later.
People who have not heard the Gospel will be judged according to the laws they judge others by.
Rom. 2:12f says, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law...For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another."
Actually, all are without excuse, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Rom. 1:20).
It seems that if one sets his mind to know the true God, God is obligated to get the information to him somehow, even if it takes someone speaking in tongues that turn out to be understood by this one. This phenomenon is seen at times on the mission field.
Have you ever noticed the number 2520 (7*360). The progression of the equinox
runs the complete zodiac in 25200 years. Every 2100 years or so we move into
a new sign. This year (march 22 or so) we move into Aquarius from Picies. Or
from the Church age (two fish restrained by a cord (2Thes 2?) to the age of
the water bearer (mark 14:12).
The last time we Changed signs I think the Lord was on the earth, I may be
wrong about that, it has been a few years since I looked at it.
About four years ago I studied with a few guys and we saw the same dates as
you are seeing, I have twelve of the "signs" I can fax you if you are
interested that show up the 1998 date. These signs are from all sorts of
places, the scriptures, zodiac etc.
...there are many different
dates one can arrive at from many different ways, all very good. Avi Ben
Mordici, as you mentioned, has some very good reasons to thing it is in 1999,
and so on. I think you are opening yourself up to disappointment like Grant
Jeffery did when he thought that the rapture would be in 1993, based upon some
very good data.
I am not saying you are wrong, I hope for it also, and I do believe that it is
possible to know the year, or mabye even the day, however, I have seen many
ways at arriving at many dates and not smart enough to come up with what is
I encourage you to keep pressing to find the date.
...I am not saying the Rapture has to happen when I think it will. That date is just the most likely I can see in the various scriptural clues. My main message is that if it is possible that it is this close, we had better be sure we are wise virgins (i.e., pure in God's sight). We only get one chance to go through that particular door. I think it is the strait gate for the Bride of Christ. There are 2 Raptures, one for the wise virgins and one later on for the foolish virgins. Let us be counted worthy to be chosen as the Bride and escape the Tribulation....
Thanks for fast reply on availability of your books in South
I did not say first time around you blessed me, but want to say so now. I
am a ... Pastor for a number of years and endtime things always
interested me. Without being audacious I regarded myself to know the
End-time program quite well. I always however had a problem not being able
to balance few things. Like Bride vs Friends of Groom and few other.
I hated date setting and never believed Pre-Rapture as possible due to
Tribulation Saints seen in Revelation. I also hated the idea of a second
chance. My problem always were people saying you wil have to pay with your
own blood to be saved. Our blood were never ably to buy salvation. I
realise now that 2 raptures never implied getting saved by your own blood.
To say the least you messed up my Theology.(Thank GOD for that) I do
however have a question. In your web I can't find anything regarding the
Manchild of Rev.12:5. I always thought this to be the bride and that this
event takes place in the middle of the 7 years tribulation. Please give me
...The manchild seems to represent the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah, being caught up to heaven because chapter 12 has to do with the middle of the Tribulation.
The wise virgins (Bride of Christ) are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. The foolish virgins (rest of Body of Christ) are caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Only Moses and Elijah are caught up in the middle of the Tribulation. They prophesy 1260 days (Rev. 11:3), the first half of the Tribulation, and then are killed. After 3 1/2 days, they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven (Rev. 11:11,12).
Rev. 12:5,6 says, "and her (Israel's) child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." This is the last half of the seven-year Tribulation. It begins when Satan and his angels are cast down to Earth (Rev. 12:7-10) in the middle of the seven years.
> Also I am not sure if I catch up with all you updates
Updates are sporadic, as I am able.
> I wil make a point to see you after the rapture (The first one). Your site
> is a blessing. See you after the Rapture.
As I read one of the Procons, where a young mother was reading your text and
then looking to her baby. It reminds me of some other ladies with young kids
- as I have discussed about 'the endtimes' - they often refuse to accept the
idea of imminency, because they think of their children - "oh donīt talk
about this kinds of terrible things to children". It is of course a lack of
faith. Surely Gods ways (and premises) are better than what is about to take
place here on earth soon. Reminds me of a verse where the disciples tried to
stop children from coming to Him. He scolded the disciples and told them to
let the children come to Him (and mentioned the Kingdom of God). Just don't
see too much of this mentioned.
Now after 'Christmas' season it would be healthy to get into the matter of X-mas.
For years I have heard (Plain Truth etc.) that Dec.25 was an ancient pagan
feast. But I was surprised to find that you identified 'The mother of
harlots...' as a Babylonian religion. (And not Catholic Church). Do you have
more information on Tammuz and related things. Surely one wouldn't have to
be a prophecy expert to see that there is nothing in common with Jesus and
...BTW, "Plain Truth" did not always teach the truth. It was a mixture of truth and untruth, Herbert Armstrong's own ideas.
Re Christmas. Looks like Jesus was conceived at Hanukkuh, and was born the following Tishri 1. Kislev 24 is relatively near Dec. 25, so there may be a connection, though not the birth of the Messiah, as is commonly taught.
Dec. 25 was Satan's counterfeit saviour's birthday, that of Tammuz. Yes, it definitely was pagan, even celebrated with evergreen trees, but Satan tries to counterfeit everything to confuse us. We have to sort it all out. Best book to read on Tammuz is Hislop's "Two Babylons."
Incoming Email: News from Jerusalem
Clarence Wagner, Jr., Bridges for Peace, 1-16-98
My note: Shepherd's would not have been in the fields around Bethlehem in December, too cold. Jesus was born as the "former rain" on the Feast of Trumpets in September. Hosea 6:3 says, "he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter (Nisan 1) and former rain (Tishri 1) unto the earth."
Snow, sometimes mixed with rain, fell in various parts of
Israel this past week. The stormy weather, together with
security warnings and roadblocks against possible mass
terrorist attacks by Hamas, joined forces to cause sizable
traffic snarl-ups in and around the large cities. At least
one fatal traffic accident, in which six persons were killed,
has been attributed to the weather. Snow-removal equipment
had to be called in to clear the roads in Safed and Jerusalem,
and roads near Ein Gedi at the Dead Sea were flooded. Between
6-8 inches of the white stuff fell in Jerusalem, making it a
winter wonderland for a day - enjoyed by kids and adults
alike. Jerusalem only sees this much snow about once every six
years. The ski area on Mt. Hermon is expected to open in a
matter of days, only a bit later in the year than usual.
i'm sorry to see such an intelligent person so confused. there is no rapture!
at least not that will save us from what is to come. i challenge you to find
anywhere in the bible that says we will be taken before all hell breaks loose.
i know it says the dead and living will be taken, the dead first, then we with
them. but i can think of nowhere that it says we will be taken before the
trouble begins. on the contrary we are supposed to be witnesses of all the
antichrist's crimes and share in christ's suffering. now i'm no genius,but i
belive what christ said. one of the things he said was no servant is greater
than it's master. if he suffered like he did, should'nt we too?
no hard feelings, if your post trib disreguard this whining. as thats how
i see it.
They did not believe Noah, either.
Luke 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (i.e., the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
I believe there are two Raptures. The Pre-Trib Rapture of Rev. 4:1 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is for the Bride of Christ, the wise virgins who are ready when the Bridegroom comes. The Pre-Wrath Rapture of Rev. 7:14 and I Cor. 15:52 is for the remainder of the Body of Christ, the foolish virgins who by that time have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:14). Rapture I is as the days of Noah. Rapture II is as the days of Lot, when fire and brimstone fell that same day.
Between the Rapture in Rev. 4:1 and the one in Rev. 7:14 is Revelation, chapter six. It begins with the Beast riding forth as a prince of peace and ends with "the great day of his wrath is come."
Rapture II takes place between the opening of the sixth seal in Rev. 6:12 and the opening of the seventh in Rev. 8.
Thank you for the bountiful amount of food for thought. Am certain many more than myself have been and are inspired by your works.
I appreciate your sharing this with me.
Thanks for the very quick response to my question. I'm about 25% thru Revelations 2000 and just like End of the Age, it is packed with information. You are amazing.
Thanks for the nice comment.
Having read most of your site you have encouraged me to take one foot
out of the world, where it has been for some time, and I am now
endeavouring to be in a righteous and acceptable state for Christ's
If it possible in heaven I'd like to give you a big hug and a kiss!
I have ordered your books through Amazon and am waiting patiently for
them to be delivered (I'm in the UK) but I have been itching to find out
about heaven - from your clues it's...ofcourse - does this mean
that hell could be somewhere warmer such as venus?
Praise the Lord. We may only get one chance to be chosen as the Bride of Christ. We just must not muff it....
Yes, ...is the throne of the Lord Jesus Christ, but hell is the center of the Earth....
It looks like to me that you have saw the light in stating there is a rapture after the sixth seal and then
showing them in heaven in chapter 7. The problem is there is only one rapture, not two. There are
scriptures to back up the rapture at chapture 7, but you only have inference to show a rapture at 4:1.
You sound like a die-hard pretribber, that dosen't want to give up their tradition. The feast days and
numbers that you give to try and prove a pretrib rapture look good, but do they really mean anything?
If I was a betting man , I would bet that you see a 144,000 Jews for Jesus, preaching the gospel
to people that are " left " in the tribulation.
Please don't take me as a smart-alec. I am post-trib, pre-wrath not by choice, but by looking at
scripture to prove a point, and not using inference. I've just been on the internet for a few weeks and
your view about two raptures is certainly new to me. Please reply if you can
The idea of two Raptures is new to quite a few people. Yet, I think it makes more sense than any of the other views.
In the parable of the ten virgins, the five wise go when the Bridegroom comes to get his Bride. That is Rapture I.
Yet, the five foolish had some oil. They were saved. The next time the door opens, they are ready. That is Rapture II.
It is the same with the Philadelphians and Laodiceans. The Philadelphians are ready and go through the open door that is set before them, and they do it before the Tribulation. Rev.3:10 says, "I also will keep thee FROM the hour of temptation (trial), which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." The Laodiceans are spewed out of his mouth at that Rapture, but they too are in Christ, i.e., saved. They are promised, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne" (Rev. 3:21). They are caught up in Rapture II.
Because there are two Raptures, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things (the Tribulation) that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). The worthy escape the Tribulation trial that is to come upon all the world. If there was only one Rapture at the end of the Tribulation, why would Jesus say to pray that ye may be accounted worthy to escape these things? All these things would have already taken place during the Tribulation.
...I am 23...I just graduated from college last spring and I'm working as a computer
programmer. In the summer of 1996,(before my senior year in college) I took
an internship in Vancouver, WA. Being away from home was nothing new for
me, but 3000 miles can be a bit rough. I made friends quickly, but I always
missed home. One night I was strolling through a Barnes and Noble. I had
originally gone to find some StarWars books or some other sci fi type of
book. As I was wondering around the store, I suddenly found myself in the
religion section, looking directly at your book, "End of the Age". It was
calling to me. I felt it. I consider myself a faithful Christian. I keep
in contact with God and I know that he is always watching over me. Recently
I've come to the conclusion that God wants me to know about his will.
After seeing your book and looking at the back cover, I bought it and read
it. It made the rest of my stay in the west joyous, but also a bit
sobering. My father, who I feel is blessed with a great understanding of
scripture, always told me to watch for the signs. Your book was the
greatest sign I had ever recieved. Since that time I have kept the date
5/31/98 clear in my mind. With the new year upon us, I am anxiously
awaiting the Rapture. Your book brings out the elegence of God's plan.
I'm very happy to have found your web page. I'm also very intrigued by your
book "Heaven Found". I had never heard of it before. I'm very axious to go
out and get it.
I was wondering if you have ever read "The Invisible War" by Donald Grey
My father recommended it. It has given me great insight into the workings
of God's plan. I must say that yourself and Dr. Barnhouse are truly blessed
with wisdom by God. I feel very privilidged to have read your work.
I'm sorry this message is getting a bit long, but one more thing...
I'm currently reading "The Bible Code" . I had heard of the code before, bu
t never read the book, even though my dad had it out for my to take to my
apartment last summer. But, as happened before, I was in a local mall with
my girlfriend and we were walking into Waldenbooks. There it was. I knew
God wanted me to check it out. I'm only half way through it, but I'd like
to hear your opinon of it. Thank you for your time. I hope you can spare a minute to respond.
Glad you like my books. Thanks for sharing this with me. Makes it all worth while.
> I was wondering if you have ever read "The Invisible War" by Donald Grey Barnhouse.
Have read other things of his, but can't remember reading this one.
Re: Bible Codes. I think it is like God is talking to us today. He knew when we would have the capability to find these things. It shows the majesty and power of our magnificent Lord. There are so many things to find, we'll never find them all in this life. God hasn't missed a trick in giving us the information we need.
Pro and Con 50   Or Return
Contact me for more information at: firstname.lastname@example.org
8641 Sugar Gum Road, Riverside, CA, 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110, FAX (909) 697-8960
© 1997 Marilyn J. Agee