Pro and Con 493

Posted 4-26-00

Incoming email

I have tried unsuccessfully for the past several minutes to get into the geocities or members sites so I could look up Pro and Con numbers 456 and 479. Can you help??

I found your site about three weeks ago and I am so blessed. The people around me don't believe in prophecy or the rapture and endure my telling them about things I have read but with a look that lets me know they think I am radical. Indeed I am about those things which really matter in this world, but it is lonely when you don't have anyone to discuss these things with.

I have been devouring every word off your site and printed some to place in a notebook so I can refer back to them. I already feel that you are a friend and admire the amount of knowledge you have. I have studied prophecy both from books and on my own in the Bible since 1976 when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. I have an unusual love for all things Jewish and have attended Messianic services on several occasions which have blessed me. When I read your material my spirit reacts with loud rejoicing - I think you are right on and can only say Maranatha!

God bless you for your willingness to share your knowledge with us. Your Sister in Christ

My reply

Thanks for all your kind words, makes my hard work seem worthwhile.

This is my primary Web site: http://www.pe.net/~mjagee

Here are direct urls to the files you want:
http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/procon456.html
http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/procon479.htm

You can vary the numbers of the procons, but on 469, I changed computers and started using .htm instead of .html. Agape

Incoming email

I understand what you are saying, but I am still of the impression that the little fold is Israel, and the large fold the Church. However, I don't think that this is a major point of divergence, as we both agree who the Good Shepherd Is!!! I will give my reason below yours, for whatever it may be worth. Keep looking up MJ, for our redemption is nearer now, then it was in 1998!!!

> > > Lu. 12:32,33 says, "Fear not, LITTLE FLOCK; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." The LESSER SHEEPFOLD is closest to the great king (CEPHEUS). Both of these are the highest. POLARIS is the star around which all others seem to revolve. It is under the foot of CEPHEUS and part of the LESSER SHEEPFOLD. This sheepfold is also closest to CASSIOPEIA, which represents the Bride of Christ made queen.

[This is your strongest point, and one that I won't argue with, except to say that there could be a disagreement on who Yeshuah was speaking to, which was the Jewish disciples, before the Church was formed. As well, both flocks will actually be made into one, according to the Word. I was basing my statment on the actual size of the flocks themselves. Israel, compared to the amount of gentiles that have been saved in 2,000 years, is actually the smaller of the two. As well, in the Kingdom, Yeshuah will be reigning from Jerusalem, which will be the center of the kingdom, with the gentile saved, in their respective countries, 'circling' around Israel. As well, this shows the verse that 'the earth is God's Footstool. This doesn't picture the Ressurected Church so much as Israel during the Trib and into the Mill...]

> > A star in the LESSER SHEEPFOLD is KOCHAB (WAITING HIM WHO COMETH).

[I agree with this definition of the Star, but you also have to remember that the Jews have been 'waiting' for there Messiah twice as long as we have, and after the Rapture, those who come to faith in Him, will also be 'waiting on Him who Comes' back at the end of the trib]

> > Another is AL KAID (Arabic, THE ASSEMBLED).

[Again, this star actually applys to both peoples.]

> > There is also AL PHERKADAIN (Heb., THE REDEEMED ASSEMBLY)

[and this as well]

> > and AL GEDI (THE KID, THE CHOSEN OF THE FLOCK).

[And this too, really, for all those saved, forming the two sheepfolds, that will be made into one, are all the chosen...]

> > Also, the LESSER SHEEPFOLD has 7 principle stars, called SEPTENTRIONES (THE SEVEN WHICH TURN). This reminds me of the 7 stars Christ is holding in his right hand in the Preview of the Pre-Trib Rapture in Rev. 1:16.

[As well, the big sheepfold also is made up primarily of seven very famous stars. This is also seen in Taurus, in the Hyadees and Pleiades, which are both supposedly composed of seven stars]

> > There are altogether 24 stars in this constellation. This reminds me of the 24 elders in Rev. 4 and 5.

[And this is interesting as well, and I feel that this would picture the 12 tribes, plus the twelve apostles, which equal 24. This because Heb 11 or 12 tells us that They (old test saints) shall not be made complete, without Us (new test saints) when both sheepfolds are made into one sheepfold, with Yeshuah as the Good Shepherd. Then, this again would leave the lesser sheepfold to portray believing Israel during the trib and into the Mill, with the Greater Sheepfold portraying the Ressurected Saints.]

> > The lambs in the GREATER SHEEPFOLD are going out the doorway toward the SICKLE in the hand of the good shepherd, BOOTES (TO COME)...To me, this strongly suggests that the GREATER SHEEPFOLD represents the "GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number" that come out of the "GREAT TRIBULATION, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 7:9,14).

[This is a good observation, however when Yeshuah does put the sickle to the earth, the flock called the Church will be following Him back here out of the fold...]

> > A star in the GREATER SHEEPFOLD is DUBHEH (A HERD OF ANIMALS).

[This applys equaly to either flock.]

> > Another is DUBHEH LACHAR (THE LATTER FLOCK)". (Seiss says,"Dubheh Lachar, the latter herd or flock, as distinguished from a former in Ursa Minor".

[And comparatively, Israel would be the former (in time) flock and the Church the latter (in time)flock.]

> > The modern name for the LESSER SHEEPFOLD.) EL ACOLA is Arabic for THE SHEEPFOLD. MERACH in Hebrew means THE FLOCK, in Arabic, THE PURCHASED.

[Again, would apply to either]

> > Another star is FENT HAR (THE ONE WHO TERRIFIES THE SERPENT). Those believers in the Great Tribulation flee the serpent, and the Earth opens her mouth and swallows up "the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth" (Rev. 12:16).

[Again, Yeshuah gave the Church the power to tread on serpents and scorpions, not to Israel per say...]

> > The star CAB'D AL ASAD means THE MULTITUDE, MANY ASSEMBLED.

[Again applys to either or both]

> > Another star is TALITHA. That is interesting since Mark 5:41 says, "And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise."

[Yes, this is interesting, and I would think that this would tie into andromeda. Another thing about all this MJ, is that alot of the symbols in the constellations come in sets of three. Three horse figures, three dogs, three eagles, three women etc. There may be many different possibilities to this. For instance, if there is a closer relationship between Israel and the Church then many realize, perhaps the two folds represent those in heaven, and those on earth. And there are other possibilities that I wont' go into here...]

> > On page 128, in his Gospel in the Stars, Seiss says, "The picture is that of the seed of faith spoken of in the text in its twofoldness--the Church of the first-born round about the throne, signified by the Polar centre, and the Church of the after-born in still ampler numbers, led and guarded by the great Bootes amid the everlasting pastures."

[Again, I am not sure that I agree with his statement here. It may be that the exact opposite is true, for in reality, these constellations were given as signs to those who live on the earth.]

My reply

I think those in the LESSER SHEEPFOLD are those who are the "called, and chosen, and faithful" of Rev. 17:14. They are the "LITTLE FLOCK." They are caught up to Heaven before the first seal is broken to start the Tribulation.

I also think those in the GREATER SHEEPFOLD are those of Rev. 7:9: "After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, WHICH NO MAN COULD NUMBER, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." They are caught up to Heaven between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals.

Both are raptured groups, just as there were once two ships in ARGO (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS).

ARGO and both sheepfolds are decans of CANCER, which represents the heavenly assembly when they are all gathered together. In CANCER, we find the stars MA'ALAPH and AL HIMAREIN (ASSEMBLED THOUSANDS and THE KIDS OR LAMBS). Another star is ACUBENE (THE SHELTERING, OR HIDING PLACE). We also find that CANCER in Arabic is KHAN (THE TRAVELERS RESTING PLACE).

> > Israel, compared to the amount of gentiles that have been saved in 2,000 years, is actually the smaller of the two.

But Israel has had about 4000 years. Also, the Tribulation saints include the carnal Christians. You yourself said, "...the Jews have been 'waiting' for there Messiah twice as long as we have."

> > when Yeshuah does put the sickle to the earth, the flock called the Church will be following Him back here out of the fold.

There are 7 Jewish months between the second Rapture and the Second Advent.

> > I would think that this (Talitha cumi) would tie into andromeda.

It could, very easily, for ANDROMEDA represents Israel, the chained bride.

> > perhaps the two folds represent those in heaven, and those on earth.

I think they represent those caught up to Heaven in the two Raptures.

I'm looking up. Our wonderful Lord will come on time. What we think of as tarrying was in the plan all along. He won't be late. Everything he does is precise and according to his plan made out before the world began.

Do you think the last 10 days of testing could be between the anniversary of Jesus' Ascension Day and Pentecost? Agape

Incoming email

These comments come from Cardinal Lustiger, viewed as the possible next Pope. Lustiger is the Archbishop of Paris, and has a Jewish heritage:

PARIS (Reuters) - Pope John Paul is suffering from a progressive paralysis that is making him a prisoner in his own body, the Cardinal-Archbishop of Paris said in an interview published Sunday.
In some of the most frank comments on the Pope's health yet made by a senior churchman, Archbishop Jean-Marie Lustiger told weekly newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche that despite his physical ailments the Pontiff, who turns 80 on May 20, remained mentally sharp.
"One knows that his illness is leading to a progressive paralysis of the body, but his spiritual faculties remain intact," Lustiger was quoted as saying.
"This man, who used to be an athlete, is becoming more and more a prisoner of his own body. But he maintains a spiritual force, an intellectual capacity and a memory which are extraordinary for a man who will be 80 next month."
The Pope's health has been visibly faltering in recent years and he is believed to suffer from various illnesses including Parkinson's disease, although the Vatican has never officially confirmed that he has the debilitating illness.
The president of the German Bishops Conference, Bishop Karl Lehmann, suggested earlier this year that the Pope could retire if his health prevented him from doing his job, but Lustiger appeared to rule this out. "He shows evidence of great freedom with respect to his physical limitations. So much so that God will not relieve him of his mission. He accomplishes it faithfully, courageously, like a good servant," Lustiger said.

Popes usually reign for life. The last pope to resign willingly was Celestine V, who stepped down in 1294. Gregory XII reluctantly abdicated in 1415 in order to resolve a dispute when there was more than one Pope reigning at the same time.

Incoming email

thank you marilyn for replying to my e-mail recently concerning the rapture. i have just a couple more questions...undoubtedly there will be people left in pilotless planes and in driverless cars after the rapture due to christian pilots and drivers being taken up. people left behind will be killed becuse of these occurences. if a carnal left behind beliver is among those killed because of these occurences, and they obviously do not have time to purify themselves in time for the second rapture, do they go to hell? also, every christian at the time of the rapture is going to have some sin issue in their lives...no christian is ever going to be 100% perfect..who is to say at the time of the rapture who is carnal and who is not? how does one define carnality? are we to live in fear because we do not know wether we are good enough to go in the rapture? do we have a set number of minutes or hours a day we are to spend in the word? are we to pray a set number of hours a day? in other words, how do we know wether or not we are carnal? i would really prefer not to live in fear thinking i will be left behind at the rapture. when i stand at the bema seat i know i will not recieve every crown..i do not believe any christian can honestly say they are 100% perfect and will recieve every crown and reward. there will be many of us who will recieve loss, because we were not 'pure'. all i can do marilyn is my best. i know ive laid alot on you, but could you give me your take on these questions please? thank you!!

My reply

There are lots of things we are not told. People assume that there will be accidents, but the Bible doesn't tell us that, does it? Maybe the angels will take care of those things. The Lord planned this a long time ago. His plans are perfect. What he wants to happen will happen, and what he doesn't want to happen won't happen. Everyone has already had some space to repent. There will come a time when the Rapture is "at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Rev. 22:10,11).

I think EVERY believer left on Earth will be caught up AT THE "LAST TRUMP," carnal or not. I Cor. 3:11-15 says, "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." Jn. 6:39 says, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY."

> > who is to say at the time of the rapture who is carnal and who is not?

The judge, the Lord Jesus Christ.

< < are we to live in fear

No! We must do what the Lord says to do and trust him for the rest. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS." If we trust him for Salvation, surely, we can trust him to do what he says he will do. We just have to do our part, and he will do his part. Confess it as soon as you realize you committed a sin. Right then! Don't wait! He loved us enough to die in our stead. Don't you know he will keep every promise?

He didn't lay down a law that said we should do this or that, even pray, a set amount of time each day. The just shall walk by faith. His way is easy, his load light. Trust him implicitly. Pray every day. Ask him to guide you every day. He will. Is worry what he wants you to do? That was never a commandment. :-) Relax. Do your best and trust him for the rest. Agape

Incoming email

I check your website everyday just like I read the newspaper. I have never seen your comments on the 24th chapter of Jeremiah about the 2 baskets of figs: "One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten. (vs.2) And vs. 5,6: "Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians. My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land." This almost sounds like the message for the churches in that God "regards" as good the first fruits and he sends them away for their protection. The "bad" ones cannot be eaten - like being spit out of his mouth. What do you think? Thank you

My reply

I think you see the picture as it applies to today. There seems to be a double reference. One was in the past, with overtones that apply to the future. The one in the past helps us understand the future. Israel's history is peppered with little dramatic skits to help us understand end-time prophecy. In the past, Judah was to be restored after 70 years, but those of the 2nd deportation were not. In our days, Israel is to be restored the second time after 7 years. At the Judgment of the Nations, all the sheep go into the kingdom. All the goats are done away with.

The good figs (Judah) were sent to Chaldea "for their good" (v. 5). The bad figs were "to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt" (v. 9).

Jer. 25:10 is interesting when you think of our days. It says, "Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, THE VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM (Christ), AND THE VOICE OF THE BRIDE (she is caught up to Heaven in the Raptures), the sound of the MILLSTONES, and the light of the CANDLE."

Think of the correlations. Mt. 24:41 says of the Rapture, "Two women shall be GRINDING AT THE MILL; the one shall be taken, the other left." The sound of the millstones would stop, the one because the woman was gone, the other in astonishment.

Job 18:4-6 says, " shall the ROCK be removed out of his place? Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine. The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his CANDLE shall be put out with him."

Rev. 18:23 says of Babylon after the "STONE like a great millstone" impacts Earth, "And the light of a CANDLE shall shine no more at all in thee; and THE VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM AND OF THE BRIDE shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."

These things are interwoven so we can understand what is coming upon the world at the end of this age. Once I realized this, Israel's dry old history wasn't dry any more. It is full of surprising tie-ins with endtime prophecy.

Concerning the rock, or asteroid that will strike Babylon, Jer. 23:18-20 says, "For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it? Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked (the False Prophet). The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly." We couldn't understand this until our astronomers had found asteroids.

Studying Scripture is fun. There are surprises waiting to be found in the oddest places. We have to look for hidden treasure like miners look for the vein of silver. Prov. 2:3-5 says, " Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God." Agape

Incoming email

A friend of mine pointed out to me that on Pentecost, the normal Torah reading is not done. Instead, the book of Ruth is recited. Interesting that Ruth is the gentile bride.

My reply

That sure is appropriate.

Incoming email

Thanks for responding to my email and for your comments and scripture quotes. I have so many things that I've been thinking about that I'll try to just deal with a couple of them each time I write, and especially today since I don't know how coherent I am. I hardly got any sleep last night (if any), partly because I feel the rapture is so close.

There are some time lines that I believe the Christian community is general is ignorant of - like the fact that the Jewish calendar is based on 360 days, and that times 7 divided by 2 = 1260 days, which is exactly the second half of the 70th week of Daniel.

Of course we know of some obvious cases pre-Christ where Satan tried to destroy the Messianic line; ie. the Nephilim, the murder of the infants at the time of Moses (even though he was a Levite, I really don't think Satan had a good grasp on where the Messiah would come from at that time - I think he learns through time and narrows his focus), and the killing of the infants when Christ was very young. We don't see that kind of focus in Satan's attacks since Christ. Now the focus is very different, but he still seems to have it out for the Jewish nation. While I also don't think that Satan necessarily understands and intereprets prophecy with any great precision, I do believe that he understands that 360 day year and that he knows that is how God keeps time.

Lev. 26:18 says, "If after these things, you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven tims more for your sins..." and it goes further in the same bent regarding willful disobediance after being disciplined once.

Since you are into numbers, you probably know that there is a 7x7 number that corresponds the the end of the diaspora, on May 14, 1948, and when I find it in my Daniel notes, I'll be more specific. I'm not a mathmatician at all ( my WORST subject), so I have to leave the math to others. Sir Robert Anderson's book, "The Coming Prince" apparently has a lot of mathmatically figured stuff in it, but it's hard for me to read.

Anyhow, I think Satan was possibly counting all those years, and I think he has MANY times tried to revive the Roman empire but without success. I think he got very aggressive towards the end of the Diaspera, and that's when Hitler came to power and tried to annihilate the Jews. After all, if Satan could get rid of them once and for all, he could thwart prophecy and the need for the 70th week to come - a week where he knows he will lose. He knows his fate and is trying to thwart it.

Since the Israel became a nation again, I am amazed at the things that have happened since 1948, perhaps in part because I believe that Satan knows he's in his final days of power on the earth. The boom of technology alone, unprecidented in all the rest of history, is enough to say that we've jumped into the frying pan!

I'm not sure that Satan knows who the coming world leader is, nor am I sure he knows who the prophet is. With the Holy Spirit suppressing his influence, I think he may be grooming several for the tasks, and after the rapture will move in with his best candidates.

It is amazing how clear the history of the world is when focused through a Jewish lens.

Metro Church is indeed a branch of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. I've been going there for almost three months, and I like it better all the time, although I do wish that once in a while we'd sing a traditional hymn! I just don't know these new Christian songs, but I find their words very powerful and full of praise.

Anyhow, I might rambling at the moment, so I'll quit for the night and get some decent sleep! Thanks for being willing to talk about these things. In Him

My reply

> > the fact that the Jewish calendar is based on 360 days

The Jewish calendar isn't based on 360 days. There are 6 types of years, Deficient (353 days), Normal (354 days), Full (355 days), Deficient Leap (383 days), Normal Leap (384 days) and Full Leap (385 days). The number of days between Nisan 1 and Tishri 1 are constant. Only 3 months vary in length, Cheshvan, Kislev, and Adar.

Our calendar isn't based on 360 days, either. Yet we say a month has 30 days and that there are 12 months in a year (30 x 12 = 360 days). That is an approximation, not a "fact."

I don't think Sir Robert Anderson got it right. He arrived at the Crucifixion in 32 AD. That does not fit all the time indicators we have been given in Scripture. They do fit 30 AD. The temple was begun in BC 20/19. It was 46 years in building at the 1st Passover of Jesus' ministry, in 27 AD. Jesus, born in BC 5, seems to have been visited by the Magi in BC 3 before Herod died soon after the lunar eclipse of Jan. 10, BC 1. He was near 2 years old for Herod had the males 2 and under killed in Bethlehem. Tiberius became Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD and Sole-Rex in 14 AD. His 15th year of rule over Palestine was 26 AD, the year of Jesus' baptism.

Cyrus issued the decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple in BC 454. Martin Anstey found an 82-year mistake in the period of the Persian Kings (BC 536 - 82 = BC 454). Isa. 44:28 says that the Lord, "saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to JERUSALEM, Thou shalt be built; and to the TEMPLE, Thy foundation shall be laid." Dan. 9:24f shows that there were 483 years from the decree of Cyrus to 30 AD (483 - 454 + 1 because there is no zero year = 30 AD).

In Mt. 23:36, Jesus told the Pharisees, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." A generation is 40 years (Nu. 32:14). These things came on them in 70 AD (30 AD + 40 = 70 AD). This was prophesied in Eze. 4:6: " thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year."

In Rev. 11:3, I think the 1260 days is an exact count of the days on the Jewish Calendar allotted to the ministry of Moses and Elijah. It will only be true in some sets of years. Therefore, it drops the end-time calendar into its proper slot in our calendar. The same goes for the 2300 days of the shortened Tribulation in Dan. 8:14, the time the Jews can sacrifice, plus the time they can't because the False Prophet desecrates the temple. Counted by Jewish Inclusive Reckoning, the 2300 days start on the Feast of Weeks in 2001 (Sivan 6, May 28) and end on the Feast of Trumpets in 2007 (Tishri 1, Sept. 13). It is the only time that is true between now and when the 40-year probation that started with the Six-Day War in 1967 ends in 2007.

I know what you mean about the words to the songs of the younger generation. I don't know them, either, but my favorite is Majesty. Several churches I have attended put the words on a screen with an overhead projector. Some have put them in the bulletin too. That way, everyone can sing. Why leave anyone out when it is so easy to give them the words. Agape


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