Pro and Con 497

Posted 5-1-00

Incoming email

Subject: Banding together
I felt compelled to start a list for readers of your website. I started this group for two reasons, first to have a place to "meet up" should anyone not make it in the first Rapture. Also, as a place for us to meet and edify each other. It's very difficult to find a place where Believers can share beliefs and edify one another. This is not a group for arguing anything, it's for readers of your website and active "watchers."

The group is Rapture2000@egroups.com, it's very simple to join, just send an email to Rapture2000-subscribe@egroups.com. I just think this is so important, if any readers are left behind, there would be no method of locating others through your website.

I hope this is all right with you. If you object to it in anyway, I will cancel the group. Thank you for all you do. My love and blessings to you and Ed. Your sister in Christ,Loni

My reply

I don't mind, it is up to each person, but I sure hope none of the email addresses are any good after the Rapture. :-)

Incoming email

I...heard a pastor in Atlanta discussing end times prophecy...I'm studying these points on my own, but I also wanted to pass them on to you; you may have heard them before, but nonetheless, here they are:

1.
God declared the end from the beginning. In Genesis 1, something happened between verse 1 and 2 (see 2 Peter 3:1-7 as a reference). The Earth was destroyed and re-formed (as you have also mentioned before) for the first time as a result of what happened with Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-15 (another description can be found in Jeremiah 4:23-28). The issue of the Earth being ³void² in Jeremiah signifies that the first destruction (or ³Luciferıs Flood) took place because God did not originally create the Earth ³void² (see Isaiah 45:18).

The Earth was destroyed and re-formed the second time during the time of Noah. It will be destroyed and re-formed again a third time during the tribulation period. These three separate events of destruction follow the example of God working in sets of three.

2.
John 11:39-44 talks about the four days that Lazareth was dead in the tomb. It was at that point that Jesus came and brought him back to life. It was also four ³days², or 4000 years, (2 Peter 3:8) until Jesus came into this world to save mankind from sin and eternal destruction. In John 11:3-8, there is a reference to two days. Iım not sure the significance of Jesus waiting two days before going to Lazarus?

2.
In Mark 9:1-9, on the mount of transfiguration, they begin the journey with Jesus to the mountain "after six days." On the mountain, Jesus is transformed just like we will be very soon...our "six days" lease (2 Peter 3:8) on this Earth has come to an end! I know there is much more symbolism there, but the "six days" reference excites me.

3.
In the Good Samaritan parable in Luke 10:30-37, Jesus says in verse 36, "And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence and gave them to the host, and said unto him, 'take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.'" Two pence was equal to two day's wages in that time. Going on the principles of the Samaritan representing Jesus coming to save us and "a day is as a thousand years" (2 Peter 3:8), the world's two thousand year period since Jesus' first coming are complete! He gave us supplies and provisions for 2000 years, and now Heıs coming back for the final payment!

4.
Joel 1:5-19 is a call to our present world to wake up before they wail in destruction. The Lord commands us to share and warn others to seek repentance. Joel 2:1-11 goes on to reveal how the Body of Christ will be seen at the end of this age before the 1000 year millennium reign of the Lord.

5.
The pastor spoke of a short time of grace after the 6000 years that will last a minimum of 8 months to a maximum of 3 years. Not sure where he got this from any thoughts? Come Even Now Lord Jesus!

My reply

...I pretty much agree on the first part, except the destruction of the Tribulation will be repaired in the Millennium.

> > Iım not sure the significance of Jesus waiting two days before going to Lazarus?

Jesus abode where he was two days. Just maybe it represents the two years from Pentecost 1998 to Pentecost, 2000. There is resurrection at the Rapture. Lazarus means whom God aids.

> > In Mark 9:1-9, on the mount of transfiguration, they begin the journey with Jesus to the mountain "after six days."

Yes, In Mt. 17 too, and v. 7 says, "Arise and be not afraid. Now look in Lu. 9:28, "And it came to pass ABOUT AN EIGHT DAYS." Do the 2 days difference say the same as the 2 days Jesus abode in the place where he was before resurrecting Lazarus?

> > Two pence was equal to two day's wages in that time.

Yes. Does it also represent these 2 years? meaning that he will return in the 3rd year? He comes and speaks in the 3rd year in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9.

> > The pastor spoke of a short time of grace after the 6000 years that will last a minimum of 8 months to a maximum of 3 years. Not sure where he got this from any thoughts?

I don't know where he got it, but the "space to repent" of Rev. 2:21 could turn out to be 2 years. 1998 was so definitely marked in the Modern Parallels--the 480th year--it may have been the beginning of the time in the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. Did Christ come and look for fruit on the fig tree on Pentecost, 1998 and Pentecost, 1999? Then will he come and SPEAK on Pentecost, 2000?

Here's hoping he says "Come up hither" then. Agape

Incoming email

Please disregard your "critics" and just keep those predictions and dates coming.  People need to know how close the Lord's coming is lest we fall asleep like the foolish virgins.  The world desperately needs to understand the urgency of the situation.  Your web site has been such a blessing to me. It has given me the peace of mind I was searching for regarding the Rapture. As I studied the Bible over the years I, too, saw two different Raptures. But, as I read the various commentaries on the subject, every expert disagreed on Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath. It was always an "either-or" opinion.  It never occurred to me that there could actually be TWO Raptures. Assuming there was only one, I became more and more confused as I had narrowed it down in my own mind to either Pre-Trib or Pre-Wrath. The Pre-Wrath frightened me and I couldn't understand why God would deliberately try to confuse us as I believe the Bible states somewhere that Satan is the author of confusion. I prayed for months that God would show me the "TRUTH" about the Rapture. I don't even remember how I arrived at your web site, but I know who got me there - the Lord. The instant I read your conclusions, everything clicked into place and I can "see" the truth you have offered as clearly as crystal. Now I have such peace of mind knowing that I've been looking for Jesus all my life and can't wait for his return. It's like a child waiting for Christmas to come - such excitement! Such glorious anticipation! So - never give up your work. Only God knows how many souls worldwide are blessed by your teachings.

Now, to my question, in your opinion and based on your intensive study of the Word, is water baptism a requirement for salvation or a candidate for the firstfruits Rapture?  I have never been much of a church-goer. I guess the hypocrisy always turned me off. I, personally, have been baptized twice, once as a child and then again with submersion after I was saved in 1974.  However, I never had my only daughter baptized. I was divorced when she was just a baby (before my own salvation) and when I became saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, I taught her about Jesus and she was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit at five years old. She even speaks in tongues and is a great believer. She's nearly 30 years old now, but as we approach the Rapture, I wouldn't want her left out on a "technicality". This might sound silly, but I think we all must do everything possible right now to purify ourselves and show ourselves approved of God. Thanks so much for your input and I know the Lord will richly bless you for all the hard work you put into helping us every day. It is appreciated more than you know. Agape

My reply

> > is water baptism a requirement for salvation or a candidate for the firstfruits Rapture?

It certainly isn't a requirement for salvation. Was the thief on the cross beside Jesus baptized? No. Yet, he was saved.

As to who is chosen as the Bride of Christ, He is the judge, not me. However, you asked for my opinion. It seems to me that the actions and attitudes are what mean the most. Baptism is a public declaration that we identify with Christ in his death and rise to live a new life afterward. It is symbolic and a public declaration of our faith in Christ too. If we confess Christ to someone else and live that new life, I can't see that omitting the symbol would keep us from having what we earned otherwise. Surely the reality is what really matters. The Lord is fair. We will each get what rewards we earn. To me, confessing our sins and staying in fellowship with God is of paramount importance right now. We don't want the Lord to say, "Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Mt. 25:12). Our lamps had better burn brightly.

Incoming email

...God chose to use the Jewish people to tell the nations about himself as well as his future plans for mankind and one of the ways was to keep specific ceremonies which are like photos of the real thing so when the real thing came along they would be able to tell but because of sin they became blind to the truth and the prime example of this is Jesus our Passover Lamb who was sacrificed for man's sins so that those that believe in Him have full forgiveness of their sins. One particular photo called "Teshuvah" in Hebrew which means to repent or return seems to be turning into a present day reality.

"Teshuvah" consists of a 40 day period which is broken down to a 30 day period of warnings for the people to repent and return to God, followed by the New Year-which is a two day period that is called "one long day" as there is a "hidden day" in it- followed by a seven day period called the "Days of Awe" which is said to represent the 7 years of tribulation (also known as the birthpangs of the Messiah) and finally "The Day of Atonement" where the Messiah returns and judges (as well as deciding who will go into the 1000 year Messianic age on Earth). We know that the tribulation period is a seven year period from Daniel 9:27 so each day of "Teshuvah" seems to represent one year in real time.

Now here are the most interesting pieces to the puzzle. In 1967 Jerusalem once again became a part of Israel. In other words Israel became whole and "Teshuvah" could start for real. During the 30 years from 1967 there have been countless warnings given of the last days and to turn to God. The years 1998 and 1999 (the hidden year of the one long year) are the birth of the beast (the one world government) which will be followed by the seven years of tribulation starting in the year 2000 and finally Christ's return to rule in the year 2007....another interesting point about the year 2000 is if it's whole number is equal to 2000 and we divided it by the 3 (beast,false prophet and the dragon) to get an individual number, the number we get is 666.666 666 666 reoccurring or as I see it evil reigning from the year 2000 onwards.

Another way of roughly finding the seven year tribulation point would be looking at the Jewish year which is currently 5759 but is said to have an error of 240 years which would bring it to the year 5999. The Jewish year 6000 probably starts on the 11th of September 1999 and ends on the 10th of August 2000 or there abouts and around the end of that time period the seven years of tribulation would begin. As God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested and as well as knowing that one day is equivalent to 1000 years in Gods sight (2Peter3:8) then the sixth day is almost finished (almost 6000 years gone) and the seventh day-the 1000 years of Christs rule (Rev20:4)-is almost upon us.

GENESIS 41:28-31 "It is just as I said to Pharaoh: God has shown Pharaoh what he is about to do. Seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt, but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will ravage the land. The abundance in the land will not be remembered, because the famine that follows it will be so severe.

Humm!! Some of the events that happen with the people of Israel provide shadows of future events for the people of the world and I believe this is one such event. Pharaoh had two dreams of visions which Joseph explained as 7 good years of prosperity followed by 7 years of severe famine.

How I see this possible relating to our time is that the 7 year tribulation time will also be a time of famine as in Revelations 6:6 the payment for a days wage is only a quart(about a litre) of wheat. Previously the posibility of the 7 years of tribulation (the 7 bad years) starting in the year 2000 was explained so looking at our current time it certainly seems that we are living in a time of Israel's 7 years of prosperity and recognition among the nations due to the Oslo peace agreement. Imagine what would of happened if Israel didn't go along with this peace deal, possible trade embargo's, sanctions, lowly esteemed in the international community and forein aid dried up so this Oslo peace accord certainly has made Israel prosper during these 7 Good years.

What seems to mark out this 7 year period of Israel's prosperity is the signing of the Oslo peace accord by Israel and Palestine on the 13th of September 1993. Exactly 7 years latter, to the date on the 13th of September 2000 the final status talks which include the final status of Jerusalem are to conclude. To bring about these final changes will take time and this time frame I believe will be this 7 year covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27, the tribulation time. For those that are looking for rough dates from my understanding as to when things are going to happen then we have the possible tribulation period from the 13th of September 2000 (the conclusion of the final status talks on Jerusalem and of the 7 Good years) to the 13th of September 2007.

This day of the 13th of September 2007 is also a very special day in the Jewish calendar year in that in this case Rosh Hashanah or the head of the year falls on this date. Rosh Hashanah does have other significant meaning such as the day of judgement, the coronation of the Messiah and also the Jews believe that Rosh Hashanah would be when they would see the coming of their Messiah/king coming, so all in all a very appropriate day indeed for Christ to return.

The significance of the final status of Jerusalem should not be overlooked because at the present Jerusalem is controlled by Israel and there is no Jewish temple on the the Temple Mount but the bible indicates that in the end time the Jews will have their temple and Jerusalem will be given to the nations i.e that is out of Israel's control. Whether this happens due to the final status talks on Jerusalem remains to be seen but the strong possiblity of this happening is certainly there.

The Jewish people want to build their temple but can not, because the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is under Palestinian control; the Palestinian people want control over Jerusalem and want Jerusalem to be their capital but it is not, as Jerusalem is Israel's captial and it is under Israel's control. So what is the obvious solution to this problem but to give the Jewish people the right to build their temple on the Mount and to make Jerusalem an international city to please the Palestinians as well as the United Nations and the Roman Catholic Church who have also wanted this to happen for a long time for different reasons.

One other point that must also be mentioned is that God's chosen people were brought to a place of safety during the 7 bad years and not before therefore I feel that like God's chosen people Israel (Jacob and his family) that were saved from certain death by Joseph, those that believe in Jesus and wish to be rescued at the time of the rapture will also be saved from certain death during the 7 bad years (the tribulation years) by being taken out of the world since the world will be such a dangerous place to be in, in the last 3 and a half years of the tribulation.

1 THESSALONIANS 5:1-3 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Humm!! People will certainly be saying "peace" in the year 2000 and beyond...

If there ever was a time more likely for the 7 years of tribulation to begin then that time is in the year 2000 (probably later on in that year when the final status talks are concluded on the 13th of September 2000). Around 3 and a half years later Jesus will come back and take out his people before the rest of the world was allowed to destroy themselves through the devil's puppet, the Antichrist. The devil will vent his fury, using the Antichrist, on mankind due to the fact that the devil is kicked out of heaven and knows that his time is short (the last 3 and a half years of tribulation) before he is locked up for the 1000 years of Christs rule on earth. Yours in Christ

My reply

> > tribulation starting in the year 2000 and finally Christ's return to rule in the year 2007

I understand what you are saying about the 40 years. 1967 + 40 = 2007, and I do think this age will end and the millennial Day of the Lord start in 2007. The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord seems to be on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). That is 7 good years and 7 bad years from Sept. 13, 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed.

However, I actually expect the Beast and False Prophet to confirm the Final Status Peace Covenant on the Feast of Weeks in 2001, kicking off the Tribulation. I also expect the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008). That is the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year. Things are not always as simple as they could be. The Tribulation is shortened (Mt. 24:22), and there are 7 months (Eze. 39:14) between the Day of God's Wrath on the first day of the Millennium and the return of Christ on the following Nisan 1 (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,21).

> > The Jewish year 6000 probably starts on the 11th of September 1999 and ends on the 10th of August 2000 or there abouts and around the end of that time period the seven years of tribulation would begin.

I think there is more time missing in the Jewish calendar than 240 years. My chronology is on my web site. People speak of this being the 6000th year since Adam was created. That doesn't seem right to me. When I charted out the years according to the time indicators given in the KJV, which is from the Masoretic text, and assigned BJE (before Jewish Era) to the extra years, I came up with Adam being created in 283 BJE.

Israel was tried 40 years in the wilderness. King Saul was tried 40 years. King David was tried 40 years. King Solomon was tried 40 years. Christ (the second Adam) was tempted 40 days. Modern Israel seems to be on 40 years of probation now. The number 40 means testing and probation. I think Adam was tested 40 years, judged, and then cast out of the Garden of Eden. This makes him leave in 40 AH, which was 243 BJE, or 4004/4003 BC. To me, man's 7000-year period of testing being mortal and knowing both good and evil started then.

I agree that 6000 years for this phase of man's test is reasonable. The 7th millennium is the 1000-year reign of Christ called the Day of the Lord. I think this 6000-year period ended in 5758 (1997/1998), which was the 480th year of the Modern Parallels. An explanation of that is also on my Web site.

Before we jump to the conclusion that this will all be over in the 7000th year, let me say that I think there are some extra years thrown in for Israel's grace years (in the parable of the barren fig tree, Lu. 13:6-9) and the Tribulation. Eccl. 8:5 says, "a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment." I think TIME represents the 7000 years man is being tested being mortal and knowing both good and evil. I think JUDGMENT is this space of time inserted between the 6th and 7th great days. It seems to have been inserted so that if Israel would turn to the Lord, it could be left out. This space seems to be the 10 years from 5758 to 5768 (1997/1998 to 2007/2008). Dan. 1:12,14 says, "Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink...So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days." These may symbolize the 10 years.

In Lev. 26:27,28, the Lord said, "if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times (years, Rev. 12:6,14) for your sins."

> > we have the possible tribulation period from the 13th of September 2000 (the conclusion of the final status talks on Jerusalem and of the 7 Good years) to the 13th of September 2007.

This seems reasonable, but the Tribulation is shortened, and I don't think the right people are going to sign the Final Status Agreement Sept. 13, 2000. I think this same covenant will be CONFIRMED when signed by the Beast and False Prophet (and other members of the UN) on the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost (May 28, 2001). Dan. 9:27 says that the prince that shall come (the False Prophet) will "confirm the covenant with many for one week" (7 years). That is the kickoff for the Tribulation and will reveal just who the Beast and False Prophet are. Thus, I think the Seventieth Week of Daniel will appropriately begin on the Feast of Weeks.

It may turn out that the Church is raptured on Pentecost/Feast of Weeks in 2000, and the witnessing for the Lord will officially be turned over to Israel with the coming of Moses and Elijah on Pentecost, 2001.

At the time of the Rapture, There" are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (the great red dragon and his 6th and 7th heads, the Beast and False Prophet). As the Tribulation starts in Rev. 13, we see that all 10 kings are crowned. There is some space between the Rapture and the Tribulation.

> > 13th of September 2007 is also a very special day in the Jewish calendar year in that in this case Rosh Hashanah or the head of the year falls on this date. Rosh Hashanah does have other significant meaning such as the day of judgement, the coronation of the Messiah and also the Jews believe that Rosh Hashanah would be when they would see the coming of their Messiah/king coming, so all in all a very appropriate day indeed for Christ to return.

I agree on this date for Christ's Coronation and the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. This is the Day of God's Wrath poured out on unbelievers left on Earth after the two Raptures, but his return is yet 7 Jewish months future. Eze. 39:12,13 says, " And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD." I think the Second Advent will be on the first day of the Jewish Regnal Year, Nisan 1, in 2008 (Eze. 29:17,21).

> > to make Jerusalem an international city to please the Palestinians as well as the United Nations and the Roman Catholic Church

We are in complete agreement here.

> > One other point that must also be mentioned is that God's chosen people were brought to a place of safety during the 7 bad years and not before therefore I feel that like God's chosen people Israel (Jacob and his family) that were saved from certain death by Joseph, those that believe in Jesus and wish to be rescued at the time of the rapture will also be saved from certain death during the 7 bad years (the tribulation years) by being taken out of the world since the world will be such a dangerous place to be in, in the last 3 and a half years of the tribulation.

Note: As I am putting HTML on this file, it just hit me that Israel stayed in Egypt long after the 7 years of famine that got 70 (Ex. 1:5) of them there in the first place. I must have been asleep at the wheel and dying with a headache not to have caught that before. :-) It was 400 years from the casting out of Ishmael to the Exodus, so the sojourning of Israel was 400 years. Gen. 15:13 says, "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not their's, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years." Acts 7:6,7 says, "And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth."

...There are two Raptures, one before the Tribulation, the other on the 2300th day just before the 7th seal is broken and the 7 trumpet judgments unleashed on the unbelievers left behind. The first Rapture is largely Gentile. The majority of the Jewish heavenly group will be in the second Rapture. The first group is "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation," seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9 before the first seal is broken in Rev. 6. The second is the " great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14 before the 7th seal is broken in Rev. 8.

The first group is kept "FROM" the Tribulation (Rev. 3:10). The second group comes "OUT OF" the Great Tribulation (the last 3.5 years) (Rev. 7:14).

We should obey Jesus' commandment in Lu. 21:36. It says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Maranatha

Incoming email

AHA! I guess I just saw the light, something you saw long ago: the tribulation for the unsaved lasts longer than 2300 days. Perhaps several months longer, ending defeat in the battle of Armageddon and damnation. Not a pleasant prospect. Only they must endure the trumpets and bowls of God's wrath.

The tribulation saints are pulled out at day 2300. They must endure only the 7 seals, and it sounds like most of the misery of these seals is caused by the False Prophet (the AC). I have also seen that the two parts of the 2300 days have tribulation directed at the Jews and then at the Gentiles. Is this so? Thanks as always for your insight!

My reply

...You are right. The shortening is for the elect's sake. Mt. 24:22 says, "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." I think the second Rapture (Rev. 7:14) is on the 2300th day, just BEFORE the 7th seal is opened in Rev. 8. In Rev. 9, we see men being tormented by the demons for 5 months after the 2300th day. They will seek death and not be able to find it.

> > I have also seen that the two parts of the 2300 days have tribulation directed at the Jews and then at the Gentiles. Is this so?

Rev. 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon ALL THE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

In the middle of the Tribulation, the False Prophet starts his war against the Messianic Jews (Rev. 12:6,14,17), but there are martyrs for their faith by the breaking of the 5th seal (Rev. 6:9). Those years are not going to be fun for anyone. They are the bad years. I don't know how to divide it between Jews and Gentiles.

Incoming email

International Paper Co. and Motorola Inc. announced today that they have agreed to manufacture "smart packages" that were designed to enable manufacturers, distributors and retailers to improve inventory control throughout the supply chain. Tiny silicon chips embedded in the packaging will contain information that can be read and modified through a wireless interface....The smart packages are based on Motorola's new BiStatix radio frequency identification technology that combines silicon with printed ink. While current bar code technology enables packages to be tracked through scanners, smart packages will emit radio signals enabling manufacturers and retailers to track them continuously...

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