Pro and Con 502

Posted 4-8-00

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Re: Location of Heavan (responce)
You may be right. These verses could be talking about the planets. However, I think we may be limiting ourself to what we can see and touch. Heaven and the Complete Glory of God is beyond the comprehension of Man. God created everything! Every breath we take is a gift from God. The point I am trying to make is we can See Saturn. NASA thermo imaging satilites can see the surface. Again, I am not trying to debate or make lite of your beliefs. You very well may be right... Keep up the incredible work you are doing for Jesus! Your Friend

My reply

> >The point I am trying to make is we can See Saturn. NASA thermo imaging satilites can see the surface.

That's good news. I hadn't heard that. Where can I get information on it? That at least proves what the Bible indicates, that it is a rock. The astronomers used to say it might be all gas. So much for that theory, huh.

Here are some interesting verses. These are from the LXX, Job 36:32: 37:3; 37:18-21 and 38:37,38. "He has hidden the light in his hands, and given charge concerning it to the interposing cloud...His dominion is UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN, and HIS LIGHT IS AT THE EXTREMITIES OF THE EARTH (so his light reaches the surface of Earth). Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heavens?...But THE LIGHT IS NOT VISIBLE TO ALL (then it is visible to some); IT SHINES AFAR OFF IN THE HEAVENS, as that which is from him IN THE CLOUDS. From the north (upward) come the CLOUDS SHINING LIKE GOLD (i.e., visible golden clouds, such as Saturn has): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty" (Christ, Rev. 1:8)....(Who) is he that numbers the clouds in wisdom, and has bowed the the earth? For it (heaven) is spread out AS DUSTY EARTH, and I HAVE CEMENTED IT AS ONE HEWN STONE TO ANOTHER." Sounds like the Lord formed it by coalescence.

In the KJV, we have these interesting verses. Psa. 89:36,37 says, " I will not lie unto David. His seed (Christ) shall endure for ever, and HIS THRONE AS THE SUN before me. It shall be established for ever AS THE MOON, and as a faithful witness IN HEAVEN. Selah" (meaning stop and think of that). Psa. 78:69 says, "And he built his sanctuary (the Tabernacle) LIKE HIGH PALACES (spheres), LIKE THE EARTH which he hath established for ever." Christ's throne is "as the sun," "as the moon," "in heaven," and "like the earth." Doesn't this limit it to our solar system?

The reference to the Tabernacle is because each of the 3 cube-shaped spaces represent a sphere, as if you put a ball in a box. The Holy Place represents the first two heavens (Mars and Jupiter). The Holy of Holies represents "THE THIRD HEAVEN" (II Cor. 12:2-4), (Saturn). Remember when they were given directions for making an altar of earth? Well, the altar represents Earth. Ex. 20:24 says, "An ALTAR OF EARTH thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee."

Psa. 91.8 indicates that when we are in Heaven, we can see Earth. It says, "Only with thine EYES shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked."

The Tabernacle faced east. The eastern lamp on the candlestick represented Saturn, the western lamp the Sun. Earth is in the middle. East of Earth are three heavens, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

This is a small part of what God has done, but it has to do with us. Where Christ is, there we shall be also. Agape

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Re: June 10th, 2000
If you have time: Could you explain what the Seven Spirits of God are in Rev 4:5, (that are the Seven Lamps of fire burning before the throne?) Do they represent the seven churches, and how? And was John both spiritually and physically in Heaven to see all this??

My reply

The seven lamps of fire may indirectly suggest that the church is in heaven, but we know that without this association. Rev. 5:9 shows the church to us. It says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation."

I assume that John was in Heaven in his vision, because of the symbolism representing reality.

In the KJV, Rev. 4:4-6 says, " And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal."

The standard interpretation is to equate these with the "seven Spirits of God" in Rev. 5:6, and to equate both with the sevenfold Spirit of God. However, that glosses over the fact that these in v. 5 are not on the Lamb, they are "before (enopion, in the face of, in the presence of, or of) the throne."

Think of the candlestick, and remember that "pneuma" (translated Spirits) can mean a current of air, breath, a wind, as an orbital wind. The western lamp represented the Sun. Proceeding west to east, the lamps represented (1) the Sun, (2) Mercury, (3) Venus, (4) Earth, (5) Mars, (6) Jupiter and (7) Saturn, which is, I think, the throne of Christ.

If we were in Heaven, as John was at this point, we would be looking at these heavenly bodies from a different perspective--(1) Saturn, (2) Jupiter, (3) Mars, (4) Earth, (5) Venus, (6) Mercury and (7) the Sun. Christ's throne is, I believe, on Saturn, "And before (enopion, in the presence of) the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal (krustallos, lit., ice)" This is Saturn's ring system, made up of 7 rings of ice crystals. Heaven has a halo--"Hallowed be thy name" (Mt. 6:9). :-)

Zech. 3:9,10 (LXX) says, "I bring forth my servant The Branch. For as for the stone which I have set before the face of Jesus, on the one stone are seven eyes" (orbs, circles, i.e., 7 rings).

Not only are there 7 rings in the presence of the throne, there are seven "planetes," (heavenly bodies that travel along the ecliptic) in the presence of the throne, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Earth, Venus, Mercury and the Sun.

Rev. 4:6-8 says, " And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in THE MIDST OF THE THRONE (i.e., Saturn), and ROUND ABOUT THE THRONE (i.e., in orbit in the visual vicinity of Saturn), were four beasts (moving planets) full of eyes (full orbs) before and behind (i.e., spheres). And the first beast was like (symbolic language) a lion (i.e., east, as on Judah's banner when they camped in concentric rings around the Tabernacle), and the second beast like a calf (west, Ephraim's banner), and the third beast had a face as a man (south, Reubens's banner), and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle (north, Dan's banner). And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes (full spheres) within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." I think the outer planets are pictured with six wings to distinguish them from the terrestrial planets, represented as having 4 wings.

It seems that all the planets can be called cherubim, or the inner planets can be called cherubim and the outer planets called seraphim (burning, in appearance as lamps burning). There are 4 cherubim (Eze. 1 and 10) and 4 seraphim (Rev. 4:8; Isa. 6:1-3) orbiting the Sun with Saturn, making 9 planets in all.

Isa. 6:1-3 says, " In the year that king Uzziah (might of Yahweh) died (representing the Crucifixion) I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple (representing Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). Above it (i.e., around Saturn) stood the seraphims (burners): each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

Isa. 6:6,7 says, " Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a LIVE COAL in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged." This pictures the burning coal, the asteroid, impacting Earth to purge Israel of sin. Isa. 26:5 says, "For he bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city (Satan's abode in the heavenlies), he layeth it low; he layeth it low, even to the ground; he bringeth it even to the dust."

Isa. 22:16-19 says, "What hast thou here? (i.e., Babylon) and whom hast thou here (the Satan-possessed False Prophet), that thou hast hewed thee out a sepulchre here (at Babylon, where the Lake of Fire will be formed), as he (Satan) that heweth him out a sepulchre on high (in the heavenlies), and that graveth an habitation for himself in a rock (a piece of his planet Rahab that split apart)? Behold, the LORD will carry thee away with a mighty captivity, and will surely cover thee. He will surely violently turn and TOSS THEE LIKE A BALL into a large country (Iraq): there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house. And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down."

Jer. 23:14,15 says, " I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery (join the United Religions), and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom (as in Rev. 11:8), and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah (to be destroyed with an asteroid). Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood (the name of Satan's asteroid, Rev. 8:11), and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land."

Eze. 10:1,2 says, " Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament (expanse of space) that was above the head of the cherubims (terrestrial planets) there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone (Saturn; sapphire means dear to the planet Saturn), as the appearance of the likeness of a throne (Christ's). And he (Christ) spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels (concentric orbits of the terrestrial planets), even under the cherub (Satan, Eze. 28:14), and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims (terrestrial planets), and scatter them over the city (Jerusalem). And he went in in my sight." The NEAs (Near Earth Asteroids) are "between the cherubims." One seems to be the one called Wormwood that Satan lives on.

The cherubim and seraphim say Holy, holy, holy, without ceasing day or night. Psa. 19:1-4 says, " The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament (expanse of space) sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them (in the middle of the planet's orbits) hath he set a tabernacle for the sun."

Man is without excuse if he doesn't think there is a God. Rom. 1:20 says, "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

2 Sam. 6:2 says, "the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims." The Lord of hosts is Christ, the redeemer (Isa. 44:6). I think he dwelleth on Saturn, between Jupiter and Uranus. Saturn is, in Hebrew, Shabbatai. It is the 7th "planetes" of the candlestick. It is, I think, our place of rest. No wonder the 7th day of the week is called Shabbat, rest.

Saturn is a good symbol of rest. It is so light, it is said that it could float on water. It is the slowest moving of all the planets, too.

Jer. 23:19,20 says, "Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider (biyn, understand) it perfectly." Agape

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Re: The Guests Of Matthew 22 Matthew 22, He prophesied of His wedding feast, which is to take place in Heaven.

It is important to note that Jesus was not speaking to the disciples nor to the 'multitude' but, specifically, to the Chief Priest and the Elders of the Jews and, from Matthew 21:45, it is obvious they realized he was speaking of them and to them. It is also important to note that, at a wedding feast, neither the Groom nor the Bride are referred to a guests and, since the Church is to be the Bride of Christ, it can be concluded the 'guests' of Matthew 22 cannot be the Church so the question arises: "Who are the Guests of Matthew 22"?

KJV of Matthew 22:1-14 "And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come...And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen."

When and where does the marriage take place? In order for the king to state that the marriage of his son has been 'made' the bride must have been chosen and it is reasonable to conclude that the church, which is to be the bride of Christ, is in heaven when the servants of the king are sent out to call those who are bidden to the wedding. Therefore the sending out of the servants must be during the 'end times', following the rapture of the church.

Who are 'them that were bidden'? Since the parable is directed to the Chief Priest and the Elders, it is logical to assume those who are bidden are the Jews and, it is also reasonable to conclude, it will include anyone who is prepared to listen to and believe the servants.

Who are the servants who are 'sent forth'? There are two sets of servants sent forth and it is probable that the 144,000 of Revelation 7:3-4 are the first set of servants who will be sent out but for whom 'they would not come'. The 12,000 from each tribe will preach wherever there happen to be Jews and, I think you will find, there are Jews dispersed worldwide. The second set, I think, are the two witnesses of Revelation 11:3-7 who will be 'entreated spitefully' by the remnant and slain. They will. I think, do their witnessing from the temple in Jerusalem.

When will the murderers be destroyed and the city burned? This, I think, is the destruction spoken of in Revelation 11:13. It follows the resurrection of the two witnesses who are slain and includes an earthquake that kills 7,000 men What is meant by 'Go ye therefore into the highways.'? Up to this time the witnessing has been directed towards the Jews but, at this point, the angels of Revelation 14: 6-9 will be sent out to preach the everlasting gospel to and warn 'them that dwell on the earth', i.e., the rest of the world.

How is the wedding 'furnished with guests'? As a result of the witnessing of the servants and the angels many will realize that Jesus is, indeed, the Son of God. There will be many who will bear witness to this fact and will be killed for their witness, these are the 'souls' of Revelation 6:9-10. Then, following the issuance of the decree regarding the mark of the beast and the additional requirement to worship the image of the beast, of Revelation 13:15-17, many will refuse to do so (some as a result of the preaching of the angel) and many will be killed, as is prophesied in Revelation 6:11. All these, the 'souls' of Revelation 6:9 and those killed, of Revelation 6:11, will constitute 'the guests'.

What is meant by 'he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment'? Who is this man? Most of those who refuse to take the mark of the beast or to worship him will do so because they have accepted that Jesus is the Son of God and if they take the mark or worship the image they know they will suffer eternal damnation. However, there will be some who will refuse for other reasons and they will not have the white robes, the wedding garments, of Revelation 7:9 &13. Such is the man without a wedding garment. He will have been killed for refusing to take mark of the beast or worship his image and will have been resurrected but he will not have done so believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but for some other belief. He will not be wearing a white robe.

Who are the guests? The guests are those referred to in Revelation 7:13-14 Praise the Lord!

My reply

We do differ a bit in our interpretations. I'll tell you what I think.

There are two parables to consider. Let's look first at the one in Lu. 12:28-40: "OH YE OF LITTLE FAITH? (Laodicean foolish virgins left behind at the Pre-Trib Rapture)...NEITHER BE YE OF DOUBTFUL MIND...Let your loins be girded about, and your LIGHTS BURNING (as they should have been at the Pre-Trib Rapture); And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, WHEN HE WILL RETURN FROM THE WEDDING (the Marriage of the Lamb is past); that when he cometh and KNOCKETH (for the Laodiceans, Rev. 3:20), they may open unto him immediately. Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them (at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman (minister) of the house (church) had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house (church) to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also (as the wise virgins were the first time): for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Now for the one in Mt. 22:2-14: " The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son (Christ), And sent forth his servants (Moses and Aaron) to call them that were bidden (Israel at Sinai) to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them (Israel) which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage (30 AD). But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants (the apostles), and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (70 AD). Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways (to the Gentiles), and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered (at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture) together all as many as they found, both bad and good (they have to be sorted like the net full of fish): and THE WEDDING (not the supper) was furnished with guests (anakeimai, ones to lie at table). And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment (a foolish Laodicean): And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? (THE REST HAVE WEDDING GARMENTS) And he was speechless (didn't know he was blind and naked). Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away ('So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.,' Rev. 3:16), and cast him into outer darkness (outside the DOOR), there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. For many are called, but FEW ARE CHOSEN."

At the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 17:14 says, "they that are with him are called, and CHOSEN, and faithful."

Lu. 12:46 says, "The lord of that servant (the unwise) will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the unbelievers." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH" (as in the parable above).

We must not end up being Laodiceans. There will be a sorting of the good and bad fish at the first Rapture. At the second, all believers will make it to Heaven. The sorting is at the Pre-Trib Rapture. We don't want to be saved so as by fire, as Lot was.

I think the Pre-Wrath Rapture will be on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, between (Rev. 7:14) the breaking of the 6th (Rev. 6:12) and 7th seals (Rev. 8). Agape

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Subject: Re: Marriage vs Marriage Feast. I just noticed my Young's Literal translation of the Bible uses the expression "marriage-feast" instead of "marriage' or "wedding" in Mathew 22 and I was wondering what your literal Concordat Version uses. You emphasized that it was a 'marriage' and not a 'marriage-feast'. I hope you don't mind me bringing this to your attention. God Bless you.

My reply

Why would I mind?

Here is Mt. 22:2-14 in the Concordant Version. "Likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man, a king, who makes WEDDING FESTIVITIES for his son." The word festivities is in lighter typeface every time it appears in this. I looked in the front and back of the book without figuring out what that indicates. The caps are mine.

Continuing, "And he dispatches his slaves to call those invited to the wedding festivities, and they would not come. Again he dispatches other slaves, saying, 'Say to those invited, 'Lo! my luncheon have I made ready, my bulls and grain-fed animals have been sacrificed, and all is ready: Hither for the wedding festivities!'' Yet they, not caring, came away, one, indeed, to his own field, yet one to his merchandise. Yet the rest, taking hold of his slaves, outrage and kill them. Now the king is angered, and, sending his troops, destroys those murderers and sets their city in flames. 'Then he is saying to his slaved, 'The WEDDING, indeed, is ready, yet those invited were not worthy. Go, then, to the exits of the roads and whosoever you may be finding, call to the wedding festivities.' And, coming out into the roads, those slaves gathered all whom they found, both wicked and good, and filled is THE WEDDING WITH THOSE LYING BACK AT TABLE. 'Now the king, entering to gaze at those lying back at table, perceived there a man who has not put on wedding apparel. And he is saying to him, 'Comrade, how did you enter here having no wedding apparel?' Yet he was still. Then the king said to the servants, Binding his feet and hands, cast him out into outer darkness.' There shall be lamentation and gnashing of teeth. For many are the called, yet few are the chosen.'" Agape

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Re:Animals on Noah's Ark
How could Noah fit all those animals on the ark? It's occured to me that there is no reason that Noah couldn't have taken BABY elephants,rhinos etc.Would have saved considerable space that way. Maranatha, Valerie

My reply

God arranged the whole thing. He told Noah how big to make the Ark, and he brought the animals to Noah that fit into the Ark. Hundreds of animals would fit on an ocean liner. There were only two of each animal, except for the 7 pairs of the clean beasts and 7 pairs of fowls of the air (Gen. 7:2,3). We need to remember that many of the animals were small too. That left room for some big ones. Since God brought the animals to Noah, he may have chosen some that were pretty young. We are not told, but we do know that God doesn't make mistakes. They did fit the space. If you make a list of known animals, it might help you gain understanding of how they fit into the Ark. You might be imagining more than there really are.

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Dear Marilyn, I have never written to you, but have been your devoted friend for a long time. Your (2) books are the most dog eared ones in the house, I sent several copies to different people, including Colin Deal. I lost track of you for several years, and kept hoping to find a new book you might have written. Last November I received this computer (an upgrade from my old Apple IIC) and while stumbling to learn to use this gadget -I too am a 74 year old grandmother- God led me to your website. I have been very busy these last 2 weeks reading your pages. Thank you Lord ! Yesterday I got to Joe's Newsletter and was very impressed with the simplycity and clarity of his statements. I have adopted most of my understanding from your books etc. My church (Lutheran and Methodist) gave me much flak. We, Warren, (like another Ed) and I are retired and he is not in the best of health so we don't get out much. Now comes my question in regards to Joe's letter. What is going to happen to the "DEAD In CHRIST" 1st. Thess. 4:16. Are they ALL coming to life first, and becoming part of the Bride, or is there a division like unto the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? I do not remember having read any books in the past that deals with that question, maybe at the Great White Throne judgement this matter will be dealt with. Maybe the foolish virgins are "found written in the book" and will become part of the body of Christ at that time. I would appreciate your help to clear this up in my mind. God bless you all for having helped us sooo much. Yours in Christ

My reply

I was 71 last time I counted, but I'm getting there.

> > What is going to happen to the "DEAD In CHRIST" 1st. Thess. 4:16. Are they ALL coming to life first, and becoming part of the Bride, or is there a division like unto the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins?

All I can do is give you my opinion. The Lord is the judge, and he is perfectly fair. I think those that deserve to be part of the Bride will be resurrected at the Pre-Trib Rapture. I think the rest will be resurrected at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. The latter includes all believers, even the foolish Laodicean virgins. There are ranks in the First Resurrection. I Cor. 15:22,23 says, " For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order (tagmati, rank)." Agape

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I have a quick question about 2 Thes. 2:10-12.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In commentaries and from others I have heard that these scriptures say that if you have been exposed to the gospel before the rapture and reject it that you will have no chance to be saved in the tribulation. In the light of the 5 foolish virgins that are told to go buy oil for their lamps and the Laodicians that are told to go buy gold tried in fire, I don't see how that interpretation can be valid. Granted the foolish virgins are christians, yet carnal, but I don't see how the harvest of unbelievers from the trib. that Rev. 7 says is "a multitude so great that no man could number it", could exclude countless numbers of people who have heard the gospel and rejected. Everything is confirmed by two or more witnesses or scriptures. I don't know of any other scripture that could even remotely come to that conclusion. What is your take on this scripture? Your brother in Jesus

My reply

> > In commentaries and from others I have heard that these scriptures say that if you have been exposed to the gospel before the rapture and reject it that you will have no chance to be saved in the tribulation.

I can't accept that. Psa. 40:1-3 says, " I waited patiently (as rewarded in Rev. 3:10) for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of Earth, like Jeremiah was pulled up out of a miry pit with cords and rotten rags), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: MANY shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."

Here is my opinion on 2 Thess. 2:10-12. These are the ones that are not going to be saved anyway. God is omniscient. He knows who they are ahead of time. Therefore, they will be the ones that will believe Satan's lie and further his program. The prophecies will come to pass.

Think of Pharaoh. He was not going to be saved, so God hardened his heart so the prophecies concerning Israel would come to pass on time. Agape

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