To me, the 2300 days have to fit the shortened Tribulation, because there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath and the Second Advent. Eze. 38:18-20 is God's Wrath. Eze. 39:12 is the time that goes by before Christ returns. It says, "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land." We know that the Day of God's Wrath is on the Feast of Trumpets on Tishri 1, and we know that the Second Advent will be on Nisan 1 (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). This means that these things take place in a Jewish Leap Year that has the 13th month. The Jewish year 5768 is a leap year. Tishri 1 is Sept. 13, 2007. Nisan 1 is Apr. 6, 2008, the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar. Tishri 1 is the end of the 7 good years and the 7 bad years that started on Sept. 13, 1993, when the Oslo Accords were signed.
The Oslo Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Tishri 1, 5754 + 7 + 7 = Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007. The Six-Day War of 1967, which was the Sign of the End of the Age, + a 40-year generation (Mt. 24:32-34) = 2007. The timing works out for the end of the shortened Tribulation to be on Tishri 1, 5768, Sept. 13, 2007. That leaves the 7 months to Nisan 1 for the Second Advent required by Eze. 39:12.
To me, that Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007) date seems secure. Does it to you? If the Seventieth Week of Daniel starts appropriately on the Feast of Weeks in 2001, it is exactly 2300 days to Tishri 1, 5768, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning.
The Pre-Wrath Rapture has to be on the Day of God's Wrath, after the 6th seal is broken, but before the 7th is broken. Rev. 6:16,17 says, "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"
We see the Tribulation saints in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14,15. It says, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.
In Rev. 8, the 7th seal is broken and the seven trumpet judgments hit Earth.The first day of the millennial Day of the Lord is on the Feast of Trumpets. Zeph. 1:14-16 says, "The great DAY OF THE LORD is near (when the 6th seal is broken, it is the Preparation of the Feast of Trumpets), it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the DAY OF THE LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers" (the UN and UR headquarters).
The Tribulation saints are Raptured on that terrible day. Dan. 12:1,2 says, "there shall be A TIME OF TROUBLE, such as NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION even to that same time: and AT THAT TIME thy people shall be delivered (malat, escape, leap out), every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake."
The 7-year Seventieth Week of Daniel is shortened. Mt. 24:21,22 says, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." We have to have a clue as to how long the Tribulation is up to this day, because in Mk. 13:23, Jesus said, "But take ye heed: behold, I HAVE FORETOLD YOU ALL THINGS."
I think it is 2300 days. How long do you think it is up to this Feast of Trumpets in 2007? When does the shortened Tribulation start? Tishri 1, in 2007 - 7 = Tishri 1, in 2000 (Sept. 30, 2000). The feasts of Nisan are already past. When do you expect the shortened Tribulation to start? and how many days do you think it will last? Is it reasonable to expect the Seventieth Week of Daniel to start on the Feast of Weeks?
> > Matthew 22...If the church, the bride of Christ, is a guest at the wedding and/or the wedding supper, then the groom, Christ Himself, is also a guest. Does that make sense to you?
No, but the word "anakeimai" doesn't have to be translated "guest." It means to recline at a meal. It is from "ana" and "keimai," to lie outstretched." Israel was called to be the BRIDE at Sinai. Jer. 2:2 says, "cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine ESPOUSALS, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness." Yet, in Mt. 22:3, she was "bidden to the WEDDING: and they would not come." How is that any different than the Gentile bride being called to the wedding? If the former one that was called would have been the bride, why wouldn't the latter one that was called be the bride?
Those in Lu. 12:36 are not "bidden to the WEDDING." They wait for the Lord, when "he will return FROM THE WEDDING." In Rev. 19:7-9, "THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME" BEFORE the others "are called unto THE MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB." I think the parable in Mt. 22 concerns the first Rapture, the wise Philadelphian virgins, and the Marriage of the Lamb. I think the parable in Lu. 12 concerns the second Rapture, the foolish Laodicean virgins, and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
We see two groups in Mk. 13:27. It says, "then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those already caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture).
> > I happen to think the parable of the ten virgins refers to the tribulation period and not to pre-trib
I don't think any believer will be left behind at the second Rapture. Therefore, the separation of wise and foolish virgins, to me, has to be at the first Rapture. I Cor. 3:11-16 says, "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (at the Judgment Seat of Christ right after the Pre-Wrath Rapture, Rev. 11:18). If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God (oil) dwelleth in you?"
> > in view of the apparent clarity of the meaning of Daniel 12:11-12, in the Concordant Version you quoted, do you still think the abomination will be set up at the same time the daily sacrifice is taken away?
Yes, I do. Here is the LXX translation of Dan. 12:11: "And from the time of the removal of the perpetual sacrifice, when the abomination of desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
The first half of the Seventieth Week of Daniel (Dan. 9:27) is "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 12:6). That is equal to the 42 months of Rev. 11:2 and the "time, and times, and half a time" (3.5 years) of Rev. 12:14.
Then, in the middle of the Tribulation, there is a big upset, caused by Satan being cast down to Earth, entering into the False Prophet, and sitting in the Temple "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). Dan. 11:31 says, "And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE, and they shall PLACE THE ABOMINATION that maketh desolate."
Dan. 8:13,14 says, " How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (1260 days), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (1040 days)? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" (1260 + 1040 = 2300).
Mt. 24:15,16 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains." This happens Mid-Trib. Rev. 12:12-14 says, " rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might FLY into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time (3.5 years), from the face of the serpent." The abomination of desolation gets placed, and that is the signal for those in Judaea to flee to Petra, where they are to be nourished for 3.5 years, the last half of the 7-year Tribulation. However, I think the Messianic Jews will be raptured before the 3.5 years are up. God bless. Agape
It is one thing, I think, dear lady, to fly in the face of tradition and another to fly in the face of fact. There is no doubt in my mind that the 2300 days were prophesied to occur but it is a fact, an historical fact, that they occurred in the past, at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes. He was, indeed, a pre-runnner of the end-time beast (there have been others) and, just as he introduced an abomination in the temple (I understand he offered a pig as a sacrifice on the altar of God), the beast will abominate the temple. However, it is thought the beast will set up his image, not offer a pig, and there is nothing in scripture to indicate that the 2300 days will be repeated. It can be made to fit, but to do so it is necessary modify prophesy to make it fit as, for instance, stipulating the two witnesses will appear at the beginning of the first half of the seven years. The measuring of the temple, by John, comes at the mid-point of the 7 years and the witnesses appear at that time, not at the beginning of the 7 years. Praise the Lord!...
> > Tradition has it that the shortening of the days, spoken of by Jesus, was a shortening performed at some time in the past.
In my eyes, it could NOT possibly be in the past. I think that from Mt. 24:14 to 26 is Mid-Trib and from 27 to 31 is after the sixth seal (Rev. 6:12) breaks on the Preparation of the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord.
Mt. 24:15: "WHEN (Mid-Trib) ye therefore shall see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)"
Dan. 9:27 says, "And he (the False Prophet) shall confirm the covenant (probably the Final Status Peace Agreement) with many (members of the UN) for one week (7 years): and in the MIDST OF THE WEEK (Mid-Trib) he (the False Prophet) SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE, and for the overspreading of ABOMINATIONS (idols) he shall make it (the temple) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate" (desolator).
Mt. 24:16: "THEN (Mid-Trib, when the sacrificing ceases and the idols are placed) let them which be in Judaea FLEE into the mountains:"
Rev. 12: 6 says, "And the woman FLED into the wilderness, where she hath a place (Petra) prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." Those in Judaea that know their Bibles flee Mid-Trib.
Mt. 24:20: "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:" I think it will be on Cheshvan 23, 5765 (Sunday, Nov. 7, 2004). Saturday is the sabbath day.
Mt. 24:21,22: "For THEN (starting in Mid-Trib) shall be GREAT TRIBULATION (1260 days), such as WAS NOT SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD (kosmos, this order of things) TO THIS TIME, no, nor ever shall be. And except THOSE DAYS (plural, the last half of the Tribulation) should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake THOSE DAYS (the last half of the Tribulation) shall be shortened." This second set of 1260 days is to be shortened.
Mt. 24:23-26: "THEN (during the shortened half) if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets (Rev. 13), and shall shew great SIGNS AND WONDERS (Rev. 13:13,14); insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert (Babylon); go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not."
Thus we have 1260 days for the first half of the Tribulation. The two witnesses "prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 11:3). Therefore, Moses and Elijah prophesy during the first half of the Tribulation. Mal. 4:5 says, "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD." The millennial Day of the Lord starts on the last day of the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14, which are the days when the Jews can sacrifice plus the days when they can't because the False Prophet desecrates the temple Mid-Trib.
Elijah cannot prophesy during the last half of the Tribulation, because it is not 1260 days long. The last segment is the GREAT TRIBULATION that is shortened to 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040). Moses and Elijah must prophesy 1260 days, during the first half of the 7 years, when the Jews can sacrifice at the Temple. Rev. 11:1 mentions "them that worship therein." The False Prophet, "in the MIDST OF THE WEEK (Mid-Trib) HE SHALL CAUSE THE SACRIFICE AND THE OBLATION TO CEASE" (Dan. 9:27). The Jews will not "worship therein" during the Great Tribulation, the last segment, the one that is shortened to 1040 days. They will "worship therein" during the first 1260 days (Rev. 11:3). Moses and Elijah will instruct them.
We can verify that the 1040 days is correct, because there are 7 months between the Day of God's Wrath on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord and the return of Christ. Eze. 39:11-13 says, " there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (his return in glory at the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD." Because the Jewish 5768 is a leap year, there are 7 months from Tishri 1, 5768 to Nisan 1, 5768, when the Lord will return (Hos. 6:3; Eze. 29:17,21).
We have to let the scriptures say what they will. It looks to me like there will be 1260 days during the first half of the Tribulation, 1040 days during the Great Tribulation, and 7 months more to the Second Advent on Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008), the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year and the anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar. I believe the shortened Tribulation is still future and lasts 2300 days, as in Dan. 8:14 (1260 + 1040 = 2300).
> > when I took the approach that the abomination will be set up 1290 days AFTER the daily sacrifice is taken away everything fell into place - INCLUDING THE SHORTENING OF THE DAYS!
If the abomination was to be set up 1290 days after the sacrificing is taken away Mid-Trib, it would take place after Christ's return, an impossibility. You didn't include the shortening of the days. You relegated them to the past so you could disregard them. Jesus indicated that the Great Tribulation would be shortened or "there should no flesh be saved" (Mt. 24:22). I can't imagine that you could really think that the time when there is a danger of no flesh being saved is already in the past. If you really think so, please tell me when it took place.
It has to be after Peter's day. II Pet. 3:7 says, "But the heavens and the earth, which are NOW (first century AD), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." We would not have the evil on Earth that we do now if this was already past. When this happens, Isa. 24:6 will take place. It says, "Therefore hath the curse (the asteroid, Zech. 5:1-4; Rev. 8:8,10) devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are BURNED, and few men left." This has not yet happened.
That takes place on the Day of God's Wrath. Eze. 38:18-20 says, "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my FURY shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in THE FIRE OF MY WRATH have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and ALL THE MEN THAT ARE UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH, SHALL SHAKE at my presence (paneh, face, the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:16), and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and EVERY WALL SHALL FALL to the ground." Agape
*** From Marilyn: That is wishful thinking. Zech. 5:4 says, " I WILL bring it (the curse, i.e., the asteroid) forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief (the False Prophet), and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name (the Beast, i.e., the Tribulation Pope): and it SHALL remain in the midst of his house, and SHALL consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof."
> In the second place the asteroid hitting the earth on the 2300th day is
> pure conjecture. In the third place the 2300th day of the tribulation
> cannot be the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, unless the
> first 335 days (1335-2300) of the Lord's reign are confined to heaven.
***Actually, I think that during the first 7 months of the Lord's reign, he does rule from Heaven. As Solomon did, Christ purges his kingdom to start with. The Coronation of Christ and the Judgment Seat of Christ take place on the same day, the first day of the Millennium. Rev. 11:15-18 says, "the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art (on the first day of the Millennium), and wast (First Advent), and art to come (Second Advent is still 7 months in the future, Eze. 39:12); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast REIGNED. And the nations were angry (the army under Gog is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
> With respect to the two witnesses, I think they are Enoch and Elijah
> because neither of them died,
*** Rev. 11:4 says, "These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." Zech. 4:11,14 says, " What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?...Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the LORD of the whole earth." Moses and Elijah stood before the Lord at the Transfiguration to show us who the 2 witnesses are. Both are Israelites. Enoch was a Gentile. Both witnesses have the power that Moses and Elijah had. Rev. 11:6 says, "These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, (as in Egypt) as often as they will.
> but that is a moot point. However, I am wondering, Dear Lady, what is
> it that "happens Mid-Trib when he places the abomination of desolation
> at the temple", which you think is "The reason for the False Prophet
> killing the two witnesses."?
***They won't worship him or bow down to his idol.
> Incidentally, the False Prophet is a man and the Bible tells us that no
> man can set on the two witnesses to harm them so the False Prophet will
> not be able to kill them.
***What it says in Rev. 11:5 is that "if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed." The False Prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
> The Bible says the beast from the bottomless pit
> will make war against them, overcome them and kill them. Surely you do
> not think the False Prophet is the 'beast from the bottomless pit'!
***Indirectly. Satan is the beast from the bottomless pit. He indwell the False Prophet.
> As to the famine of Revelation 6, that will result from the appearance of
> the black horse and the rider with the pair of balances....the black
> horse and his rider will bring famine. You are twisting the truth
> when you assert the two witnesses bring the famine of the third seal.
***What do you think will happen when they "shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy" (Rev. 11:6).
> ...Rev. 11 is, as you state, a parenthetical section but it does not
> take us back to the beginning of the 7 years but to the mid-point of
> the 7 years, when Satan is cast out of heaven and the world ruler
> breaks the covenant with Israel. The gentiles will take control of
> the city and the court of the temple and they will be able to stop the
> daily sacrifice but, for those 1,260 days, they will not have control
> of "the temple of God, the altar or them that worship therein."
***How do they stop the daily sacrifice if they don't have control of the altar?
> And who are "them that worship therein"? The two witnesses!
> Their appearance, Marilyn, is tied into the measuring of the temple, and
> this, I think, is a 'match mark', ergo, they must appear at the mid-point
> and not at the beginning of the 7 years. Praise the Lord!
> You ask: "If you don't think the 2300 days applies, how long is the
> shortened Tribulation? I am sorry, I thought I had covered that. I do
> not think the 7 years will be shortened but that the 45 days will be
***But in Mt. 24: 21,22, Jesus indicated that the Great Tribulation would be shortened. It lasts more than 45 days.
> This is the 45 days between the setting up of the abomination
> and the glorious return of our Lord. 1290-1335 = 45.
***It can't be 45 days from the setting up of the abomination and the glorious return of our Lord. Dan. 12:11 says that from the setting up of the abomination that maketh desolate, there shall be 1290 days.
> It is during this
> time the vials are poured out, the time of the GREAT Tribulation. The
> first half of the 7 years will be a time a false peace, in Israel, during
> which they will build a temple and re-institute the daily sacrifice. At
> the mid-point of the 7 years the beast will cause the daily sacrifice to
> cease and the next 3 ½ years the seven angels will blow their trumpets.
***The angels do not blow their trumpets until the 7th seal is opened at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
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