Pro and Con 515

Posted 5-23-00

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Re: Chronology of End Time Events
I have found your web site and thoroughly enjoyed it. I do have a question regarding the time span between the rapture and the start of the tribulation. If I am reading correctly, you are putting approximately one year between the two events. This is new to me.

Also, new to me is the concept that some of the saved will be left behind to go through the tribulation. Does this mean only spirit filled people will be raptured? I am familiar with the theory of the saved raptured, then those who are saved during the half of the tribulation are raptured at id-trib. I thought they were the great multitude of tribulation saints. I have been spirit filled for a couple of years (though I thought I was saved from the time I was a child when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior in my life), however,I have many family members who have been born again, some even involved in different laymen ministries, who do not attend a spirit-filled church and simply do not understand it. Does this mean they are not going to be raptured before the tribulation? Also, I am involved in a jail ministry. I have always taught the women that if they accept Jesus, they are going to be "ready" (raptured) when He comes back. I am concerned that I have been wrong. How does one know if one is truly ready? In His Name

My reply

> > time span between the rapture and the start of the tribulation.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ to us is the Rapture. That is when he is revealed to us. The book of Revelation is written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in both the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Jesus signs off with "Surely I come quickly," meaning at the Rapture (2:5; 3:11).

Rev. 1:3 says, "BLESSED is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and KEEP (tereo, hold fast, keep, observe) those things which are written therein: for the time is AT HAND."

Rev. 22:7,10 says, "Behold, I come QUICKLY: BLESSED is he that KEEPETH the sayings of the prophecy of this book....And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is AT HAND."

The BLESSED ones that he is coming to QUICKLY are those that are going to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. They will be KEEPING the Rapture.

I used to think "quickly" here meant in an instant. It may not. Lately, I have come to think that it may cover the 10-day period between the anniversary of Jesus' Ascension Day and Pentecost. Rev. 2:10 says, "the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days." How could their tribulation be certain to last only ten days? This would be certain if Revelation was written as if the Rapture was at hand on Ascension Day (40 days after Resurrection Day), and the Rapture was going to take place on Pentecost (the 50th day).

Rev. 1:19 says, "Write the things which thou hast seen (the Preview of the Rapture in chapter 1), and the things which are (when the Rapture is at hand), and the things which shall be hereafter" ("hereafter" the Rapture, 4:1).

Rev. 17 is a view at the time of the Rapture. Rev. 18 is "after these things." There, Vatican City has been moved to Babylon on the Euphrates River

But in Rev. 17, Vatican City is still in Rome (v. 18), and the Pope is the king who "IS" in office (v. 10). He is the 6th head. The 5 kings who have fallen were the rulers of the empires of Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece and Rome. The one who is still to come is the False Prophet, the 7th head of the great red dragon. He comes to power Mid-Trib. "And the beast that was, and is not, even he (Satan) is the eighth" (v. 11). He will act on his own after the False Prophet is deposed from office on the Day of God's Wrath.

The Rapture has just taken place. Rev. 17:14 says, "they that ARE WITH HIM are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL." At that time, the "ten kings" have "received NO KINGDOM AS YET" (v.12). Therefore, this Rapture is before the Tribulation and there is a SPACE between the Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation. All ten kings are crowned as the Tribulation starts (Rev. 13:1).

> > one year between the two events

It seems that this age ends as the Millennium begins on the Feast of Trumpets, Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007). It is 40 years after the Sign of the End of the Age, the Six-Day War of 1967, when Israel grew leaves (Sinai, West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza Strip) and fulfilled the fig tree parable in Mt. 24:32-34. We know that "this generation" is 40 years because it was 40 years in Mt. 23:36. All those things came upon "this generation" of 30 AD in 70 AD.

Also, the Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add the 7 good years and the 7 bad years and you get Sept. 13, 2007. The Accords were ratified in Israel 3 days later, on Tishri 1, 5754. Add the 7 good years and 7 bad years and you get Tishri 1, 5768, which is Sept. 13, 2007.

No wonder Jesus said to "Watch." We needed to recognize the Sign of the End of the Age and the beginning of the 7 good years. That establishes the beginning of the millennial Day of the Lord on Tishri 1, 5768 (Sept. 13, 2007).

The time that the Jews can sacrifice (first half of the Tribulation), plus the time that they can't because the False Prophet desecrates the temple is 2300 days (Dan. 8:14). From Sivan 6, the Feast of Weeks/Pentecost in 2001, to the Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets in 2007, counted by Jewish inclusive reckoning, is exactly 2300 days. This places the beginning of the Tribulation on May 28, 2001.

I think that Song of Sol. 2:10-14 tells us that the Rapture will be in the spring, when there are green figs and firstripe grapes. The spies went into the Promised Land at the time of the firstripe grapes. Nu. 13:20 says, "...what the land is, whether it be fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes." In Israel, the grapes come on at the end of May or in early June.

Pentecost is celebrated by the Jews on both Sivan 6 and Sivan 7. I lean toward the Sivan 7 date, and on May 22, 1999 (Sivan 7), we had a new star for a sign. It was NOVA VELORUM, in the reefed sails of the ship ARGO (THE COMPANY OF TRAVELERS). This ship is pictured in the gospel in the stars much as the Ark was in Noah's day. Noah was in Christ, i.e., in the Ark. The ship ARGO is like the Ark. We are in Christ if we are on board. His face is at the waterline, and a ram's head is above on the prow. It is backing into harbor. Therefore, the Rapture is near.

Someone pointed out that if it is 3 AM on Sivan 7 in Israel, it will be either Sivan 6 or Sivan 7, Pentecost, any place in the world. That would be a good time for the Rapture to take place. We will have to wait and see.

Pentecost, 2000, is in the 7th good year. It is the last Pentecost of the 7 good years. If it happens on Sivan 7, it will be on the 7th day of the week. I hope we will go to Shabbatai (Saturn) on Shabbat (Saturn's day, or Saturday), June 10, 2000, one year before the Tribulation begins on Pentecost, 2001.

The United Religions charter is to be signed June 26, 2000. The Final Status Peace Agreement is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. I think it will be confirmed (Dan. 9:27) by the Pope, the 10 subsidiary kings that are over the 10 regions the world has already been divided into, and the False Prophet, as the Seventieth Week of Daniel begins on the Feast of Weeks, May 28, 2001, the beginning of the Tribulation and the rule of the Beast and the 10 kings (horns).

The Beast rules 1260 days (Rev. 11:3). Mid-Trib, the False Prophet comes to full power over the world government and the world church, the UN and the UR. At that time, the False Prophet replaces 3 of the 10 kings. Dan. 7:8 says, "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them ANOTHER little horn (king), before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth SPEAKING great things." This is the man of Rev. 13:11: "And I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth (eretz Israel); and he had two horns (2 comings in the body of a man, Judas Iscariot and the False Prophet) like a lamb (Christ has 2 comings in the body of Jesus), and he SPAKE as a dragon" (the False Prophet is Satan possessed).

Satan is cast down to Earth Mid-Trib. He enters into the False Prophet, who goes immediately to the temple "shewing himself that he is God." He places the abomination of desolation at the temple and demands that people bow down to it. The two witnesses, Moses and Elijah won't, so he kills them. After 3.5 days, they are resurrected and ascend to Heaven.

The Pre-Wrath Rapture is NOT YET. This is when the 4th seal is broken. "Death (the False Prophet), and Hell" (Satan) begin to rule. When the 5th seal is broken, the martyrs under the altar still have to wait awhile for the second Rapture (Rev. 6:10,11).

The False Prophet rules until he is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath. This is when the Tribulation is shortened to the 2300 days. It is shortened for the elect's sake. Mt. 24:20-22 says, "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Dan. 11:45; 12:1,2 says, "And he (the False Prophet) shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he (the False Prophet) shall come to HIS END, and none shall help him. And AT THAT TIME (the 2300th day, when the False Prophet is deposed) shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time (the Day of God's Wrath): and at that time (Tishri 1, 5768, Sept. 13, 2007) thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake." This is day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation saints.

It is also the day Satan starts to operate as "the eighth" of Rev. 17:11. This day is still 7 months BEFORE the Second Advent. Eze. 39:12,13 says, " And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be GLORIFIED (Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD." Mt. 6:13 says, And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the GLORY, for ever. Amen." Mt. 16.27 says, "For the Son of man shall come in the GLORY of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

> > the concept that some of the saved will be left behind to go through the tribulation. Does this mean only spirit filled people will be raptured?

The parable of the 10 virgins in Mt. 25 shows that the foolish virgins will not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit to go with the Bridegroom. The Laodiceans are in Christ or they could not be spued out of his mouth (Rev. 3:16). They are not wearing white garments. After accepting Christ, we should keep all sins committed after Salvation confessed (I Jn. 1:9) so as to be filled with his Holy Spirit. At Salvation old sins are wiped off the books, we get a fresh start, but after that, we just need to let Jesus wash our feet, as he told Peter. Then we are clean every whit. We must remember that the Bride wears white and the righteousnesses of saints are the fine white linen (Rev. 19:8). This includes Christ's righteousness, imputed to us, plus our righteous acts after we are saved.

> > How does one know if one is truly ready?

Christ is the judge. We are not told some things. We know we are told not to quench the Spirit and to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Sin quenches the Spirit. Confessing that sin allows us to be filled. That is the only secure place to stand. I Thess. 5:19 says, "Quench not the Spirit." Eph. 5:18 says, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit." I Jn. 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Agape

Incoming email

Marilyn said:
> > We can't be in the 5th of the 7 trumpets. Under the 1st trumpet, hail and fire mingled with blood is cast on the Earth. One third of the trees and ALL green grass was burnt up (Rev. 8:7). Has that happened yet? When the 2nd trumpet sounds in v. 8, an asteroid as big as a great mountain impacts the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). Has that happened yet? When the 3rd trumpet sounds, an asteroid so large it is called an "aster" or star impacts Earth (Rev. 8:10). Has that happened yet? I'm afraid I disagree with Baxter.

Please take a moment to check out his video tape series so you will know first hand what he is saying. Being human I could have misunderstood him or just not fully grasped his interpretations. I do remember hearing him say that he did not have all the answers. As memory serves he states that John while he was seeing these visions (of the future) could only give an account of what he saw via his knowledge of his present day life, experiences,and vocabulary . Baxter believes that ( thru the research and study of past events) Revelation chapter 8 verses 7-9 could have been WWI and WWII . This could account for the hail, fire, mingled with blood and the grass and trees being burned up. ***Hi again, from Marilyn: I don't think so. I think Revelation was written as if the Rapture were at hand. It is "at hand" in the first and last chapters (1:3; 22:10). Since we are still here, that leaves no room for WW I or WW II. Also ALL the green grass is burnt. For that to happen, the Earth just about has to get peppered with burning meteors to set all these wild fires. We see that happening on the Preparation of the Feast of Trumpets. Rev. 6:13 says, "And the STARS of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." I think a binary asteroid will break apart releasing a hail of fiery rocks as the Earth turns. Isa. 28:19 says, "From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for MORNING BY MORNING SHALL IT PASS OVER, BY DAY AND BY NIGHT: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report."

Also in verses 8 & 9 that the mountain falling into the sea and the 3rd part being blood , a 3rd part of the creatures being destroyed , a 3rd part of the ships being destroyed ( his research showed that of all ships that sailed during WWII after it was all said and done 1/3 were destroyed.

***And then no more, huh? When this is over, every living soul will die in the sea (Rev. 16:3). Civilization as we know it will be destroyed.

Verses 10 & 11 talk of a star falling from heaven burning as though it were a lamp and the name given it was "WORMWOOD" this translated in Russian means ( and I hope I spell it right ) "CHURNOBLE" which I'm sure you remember.

***But this doesn't impact Russia. Russia does get wild fires though. One piece as big as a mountain hits the Meditteranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5). The larger piece destroys Babylon on the Euphrates River. Rev. 18:21 says, "And a mighty angel took up a STONE like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Mr Baxters "account" of this incident is startlingly close to the Bibles account . In reference to the rest of the trumpets (to save your time) I'll be brief, he ties it to the war with Saddam and while it is not word for word ( ie scorpions and locusts) if you keep in mind that John was trying to tell of 19th,20th,21st,etc century events with first century words .

***The war on that day is that of Eze. 38. The united nations' army attacks Israel.

> > About baptism. It is not for Salvation. Think about the thief on the cross. He was saved, but not baptized. It is a public declaration that you believe in Christ and symbolically die with him and are raised up to new life. Mt. 28:19 gives the formula to use. Jesus said, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Yes I agree that GOD him self gave this formula but where was it used. The argument that I get here is that father /son/holy ghost are titles not names and that the council of Nicea (probably misspelled) changed the formula used prior to 33ad to the trinity formula now used , and that noone whos account is in the Bible was baptized using any formulas/words other than in the name of Jesus / Lord /LordJesus or Jesus Christ .

***It would have been used by the apostles. If God gave it, we should go by it.

I really do appreciate you taking time out to help me look into this. MAY GOD BLESS YOU. YOUR FRIEND. Agape

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Re: Motives
I haven't written in quite a while but have been watching and waiting since early 1998. I hope this time around is the real thing. I signed up for the Discussion Group, but I hope I'm not here to ever use it.

I've been thinking about what my true reason is that I want to go in the first Rapture. Do I want to go to avoid the Tribulation and all of the misery (selfishness/escapism?)? Do I want to go to prove that I am worthy (pride?)? Do I want to go because I want to see Jesus and all the others (curiosity?)? Do I want to go because of my love for God and want to serve Him only? I'd like to think that Jesus will find me worthy, my robes will be white, and the lamp will be full. I fear that in my zeal to be found blameless, I am actually sinning by trying to "make myself ready" and not trusting enough in God's grace and mercy.

How do I determine when my actions become sin and I need to repent? Thanks for your help, dear Sister in Christ.

My reply

We are supposed to do the things Peter listed in II Pet. 1:3-11, confess our sins as in I Jn. 1:9 and wait patiently. I don't think you are falling into sin trying to be worthy. We must trust Christ for Salvation, but we run the race to win the prize of the Pre-Trib Rapture. In I Cor. 9:24, Paul said, "So run, that ye may obtain." Agape

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Re: The Year 2008
Last night, as I was seeking the Lord, I found a most interesting correlation. I was reading the book, "Bloodlines of the Illuminati" by Fritz Springmeier. On page 19 he writes concerning the Illuminati,'The ruler of this sinister empire is Satan. The Illuminati is his brainchild and the Lord of Corruption directs his kingdom with an iron fist. Every 28 years the hierarchy of the Illuminati holds a yearlong event called the Feast of the Beast. At this feast, in key locations across the world, Satan himself delivers detailed instructions on how to bring in the New World Order. These instructions are then sent through the empire's chain of command to the foot-solders of the conspiracy. The plan is then put into action by the order's many organizations.' Then on page 340- 'Plans for a mock-alien invasion were given at an Illuminati Feast of the Beast in 1868-1869...' Then calculating, the next such Feast of the Beast event would have been 1896, then 1924, then 1952 then 1980 AND THEN the next Feast of the Beast Event would be the year 2008 - the year your studies suggest for Satan's last-ditch stand against Christ's forces Armageddon!

Once again, Thank You for your sound Biblical studies and your special efforts of communication through the means of computers. Resting Safely in the Love of Our Wonderful Lord Jesus Christ

My reply

Thanks for this information. In 2008, I think Satan will be chained. The god of this world will not be able to do a thing during the Millennium. Man will be tested without Satanic influences. Given that chance, man will again fail. When Satan is released a little season, they will join with him and prepare to attack. Fire will come down and stop that, but it shows that even without Satan's influence, and with a perfect King of kings and Lord of lords, mankind will sin. In the course of 7000 years, man is tested in different ways. He always fails his test. If Christ had not given us another way out, we would all be lost. We have much to thank him for. Agape

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Re: Martin Luther
In various of the P+C's and Parallels in the 400's you talk about important dates. One of these date's is Oct 31, 1517 - The Protestant Reformation when Martin Luther wrote his 95 Theses. What do you think about the Protestant Reformation. I read his theses and it looked fine to me (but then I don't know the Bible as good as you do) Was he wrong? The reason I ask is because the following were on a chat line:

"I think someone may be a little confused about the meaning of apostasy. Traditionally, there are four forms of relationships among Christian churches -- communion, schism, heresy and apostasy. Communion is when you believe the same truths and recognize the same leaders. Schism is when you believe the same truths but do not recognize the same leaders (e.g. Catholics and Eastern Orthodox). Heresy is when you hold an erroneous belief which you once did not hold (e.g. Martin Luther and Catholics). Apostasy is when you completely renounce Christianity (e.g. Julian the Apostate)." The reason I ask this is because I'm in a "Dutch Reformed Church" which I think is based on the Bible as Martin Luther saw it. I mean I don't know a lot about Martin Luther, I just believe in the Bible and that everything in the Bible is true. I only got one leader and that is Jesus Christ my saviour. In the light of this I would like to know what you think about the Protestant Reformation. As always thanks for your time and insight. Love

My reply

I've read all Martin Luther's theses, and probably have a copy somewhere, but after moving a few times and adding umpteen other things in my tub file, I don't know where it is. Therefore, I can only answer for one item, the just are saved by faith. In that, he was correct. The Catholic Church was adding works. We can work for rewards, but they don't count a thing toward Salvation. Salvation is totally by faith, plus nothing, not even baptism. The thief on the cross was saved by his faith--only.

Titus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." Eph. 2:8-10 says, " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We are not to believe things we hear without searching the Bible to see if these things are so. We go by the Bible, no matter what we hear from any other source. Agape

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Re: New Age/Jewish Marriage
Thank you very much for answering my email...It was heart-warming!

I wonder whether you have heard about New Age leaders expecting a rapture-event? I remember reading about a christian who 'infiltrated' in a theosophical meeting and found this out in 1991. I had the original document once but I couldn't find it anymore for a long time. Now I discovered another christian website that proclaims this startling fact. Bill Lambert, the director of the New England House of Theosophy said his Guiding Spirit(s) told him that some people would not be able to endure the light of the upcoming events in the world (and could not accept the new "Christ") and would elect to leave this enlightened room for a darker one. He said he did not know how this would happen but stated these people would not die, but leave for another dimension.

the address is:
under the heading: New World Order lie

Most New Age leaders have said that the negative Karma of people with a low personal consciousness (especially Jews and fundamentalist christians) is withholding the New Age and causing Mother Earth's problems (e.g. pollution!). They often seem surprised that it is taking so long and sometimes speak of necessary violence to help Mother Earth's cleansing process. Remember that they do not see death a purely negative phenomenon, since it allows people to start over in another life/on another planet. So they could reason it is in the best interest of some people to die in the process. I had the impression that their statements of the immininence of the transformation process were much bolder around 1997/1998 than they are now. But they keep insisting that the year 2000 is a crucial year in the process. They may be very right.

But let's not focus on the enemy's ideas but on the promises Jesus gave us. I personally find the Jewish Marriage Analogy really wonderful and have read a great number of explanations like...

I think the main idea is clear: Jesus used phrases towards his disciples similar to those in the wedding-tradition (preparing a room in the Father's house etc.). Moreover the analogy supports the idea of a pre-trib rapture, since the bride and groom remained hidden for 7 days.I have read many testimonies from Jews who have accepted Yeshua as their Saviour and it is amazing how clear these things are to them at first sight. I remember one saying: How can Christians understand the New Testament completely? It is so Jewish! Before they accepted Jesus most of them expected the N.T. to very Western and were afraid to read it. In Christ

My reply

Thanks for this information. I am aware that New Agers will try to explain the Rapture some other way. Believers won't be fooled, but the unsaved can be.

If you run across the testimony from a Messianic Jew that tells what convinced them that Yeshua was their Messiah, I'd appreciate a copy. I often wonder how Jews could still be expecting a Messiah to come. I don't see how anyone today could prove that he was descended from David. The temple records were burned in 70 AD. In my mind, Messiah had to come before that. If Yeshua wasn't their Messiah, they aren't going to have one, and you know that can't happen. The prophecies all come true 100%.

The Tanakh shows that God has a son too. Prov. 30:4 in the Jewish Bible says, "Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name (YHVH), and what is his son's name (YHVH of hosts, Isa. 44:6, i.e., Yah Shua, Yahshua, Y'shua, Yeshua, Jesus)? Surely you know."

Psa. 2:7 (KJV) says, "I will declare the decree: the LORD (YHVH) hath said unto me (Yahshua), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." Verse 12 says, "Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him" (Yahshua). Isa. 7:14 says, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Mt. 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." The Son of God is both Yahshua and YHVH of hosts.

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD(YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH the King of Israel), and I am the last (his redeemer the LORD (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God."

II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself."

You are right. Many things about a Jewish wedding tie in with the Bride of Christ and the Marriage of the Lamb. Agape

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