Last year, we had a new star, Nova Velorum, on May 22. That was Sivan 7. It would be a neat day for the Rapture. Jesus was 33 at the Resurrection too, and we are the Body of Christ. Agape
I am not doing what I am doing in ignorance. I am doing it with my eyes wide open. I'm doing it from a position of strength because I know the scriptures, not because I'm proud. That has no place in my life.
I'm very sorry that ALL YOU CAN SAY IS, "if you can't read the Bible and see that God, Jesus and Paul all spoke directly against the rapture belief..."
I have read the Bible and cannot see where "God, Jesus and Paul spoke directly against the rapture belief," and you have shirked your responsibility to show me exactly where "God, Jesus and Paul all spoke directly against the rapture belief." If they spoke "directly," you should be able to cite me chapter and verse easily. You owe it to me to straighten me out. As they say, put your money where your mouth is. Give me the scriptures that will back up what you say.
I am willing to search the scriptures daily. Are you? Acts 17:11 says, "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Are you testing what Pastor Murray teaches by the scriptures, or are you letting him tell you what you believe?
Dear Heavenly Father, I pray for Donald Yager. Please open his eyes so that he can see the truth clearly. In Jesus' name, Amen. Agape
Here is what is wrong:
1) Shepherds Chapel format is a theft of the format of teachings of Dr. John Vernon McGee, who passed away in the 1970's. Except for JV McGee's understanding of the prophecies of the final generation (which was not revealed to all of us until after he passed away), I agree with all of JV McGee's teachings. I have gone through the entire 66 books of the Bible now, and it took me 33 months of study, with often up to 7 hours a day of study and prayer. The concept of studying the Bible verse by verse is absolutely sound. John Vernon McGee was the first one I know of that did it. He calls his five year program the "Bible Bus". If you listen to Arnold Murrays ocassional comments about getting down to where "the rubber meets the road", this is directly lifted out of the "Through the Bible Study" of JV McGee. This is what tipped me off. I accept by faith that the Holy Spirit led me to study under JV McGee for exactly this reason.
2) Shepherds Chapel teaches...That...the lost tribes of Israel are English and Americans. Go look into it for yourself. There are many books on cults that will explain to you about..."British Israelism".
3) Shepherds Chapel teaches "Kenites" and sexual relations between fallen angels and humans. Angels do not procreate, the Bible clearly illustrates this.
4) Shepherds Chapel teaches that we were once "gods of some sort" in a previous age. This is the common deception of the cults that try to say that human man which is a "pile of filthy rags", "no one righteous, no not one", somehow do the divine duty of bringing the Kingdom to earth...
5) Shepherds chapel goes on and on about the passage in Ezekiel about pillows and fly away. This passage has nothing to do with any Raptures. I do not understand why when Arnold Murray teaches this, he gets so upset and frothing at the mouth. Spirit filled Christians do not behave like this. I know both Spirit Filled and Carnal Christians, and there is a definite anger in the Carnal ones when you disagree with them.
6) Have a look through http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm for ...links to other Christian writers who have a discussion of the teachings of Arnold Murray.
In closing, I do not know why Shepherd's Chapel has tens of millions of followers. I do not know why SOME things that Shepherd's Chapel teaches are correct, and others are so wrong. I do not judge Shepherd's Chapel, I am telling you what the Holy Spirit revealed to me. May you discern in the same way. Sincerely
P.S. - JV McGee's teachings of "Through the Bible" is at http://www.ttb.org
This is NOT a pre trib rapture. It is SO clear to me now but when I was blind I could not see it. I have gone over this with several other people and none of them have yet been able to show me ANY kind of a pre trib rapture that didn't end up being a scripture that THEY did not understand. Well my friend, I said I would not argue and I will not. If you truly want to know the truth about the rapture then you will not get angry when someone disagrees with you but instead resume studying and convice yourself one way or the other. I think that the main reason the rapture believers get upset when I tell them they are wrong is because they somehow fear the tribulation. I look forward to it! Standing against satan will be an awesome testimony for God. He will be using his elect to open the eyes of some of the peolpe. Unfortunately not all though. I gave you lots of scripture in the letter I emailed you so I need not repeat it here. Did you read it? If so, did you check out the scripture? Just stay in His word and I will do the same. Best. Don
PS This is not a contest to see who is right. This is VERY serious business and we have to cut to the chase since time is so short.
You are side-stepping the issue. Are you not capable of defending your position? This is going out on the Internet. A lot of people will read what you say. If you can convince me, you might convince a lot of people. Isn't it worth a try?
> > you sure do get angered easily and seem awful defensive. I read some of your responses on the web page and saw the same thing there.
That's strange how you saw something that wasn't there. No one else did that I know of, and I KNOW I wasn't angry. What I would like to do is prod you enough to get you to open your Bible and read it. There isn't much time. You owe it to yourself to do it. If you don't, you might wish you had. Don't do it for me, do it for you.
> > Are you sure you are comfortable with your belief
I'd stake my life on it.
> > I am 10000% confident that the so-called rapture doctrine is nothing but the work of satan and he will be here soon to take all those in deception with him.
That is what is so dangerous for you. This could be the most important thing you have had to face since you accepted Christ. You agree that we don't have much time. What is holding you back? Jn. 14:2,3 says, " In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." He didn't say that you would have to go through the Tribulation and the 7 trumpet judgments of the Wrath of God on unbelievers before he comes to get you. You are putting it in there, but Jesus didn't.
The 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth after the 7th seal is opened in Rev. 8. Look just BEFORE that. Rev. 7:14 says, "These are they which CAME OUT (past tense) of great tribulation, and have (past tense) washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." This is the second Rapture. The first Rapture group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, BEFORE the FIRST SEAL is broken, i.e., BEFORE the Tribulation begins.
Rev. 5:9 says, "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou (Christ) art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (PAST TENSE) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of EVERY KINDRED, and TONGUE, and PEOPLE, and NATION." Wouldn't you like to be in this group? Notice that they did not have to wash their robes to make them clean. That shows that they had already confessed their sins as per I Jn. 1:9, so the Lord could cleanse them of all unrighteousness.
Look at the difference with the Tribulation saints just before the 7 trumpet judgments hit in Rev. 8. Rev. 7:9,14 says, " I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of ALL NATIONS, and KINDREDS, and PEOPLE, and TONGUES, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;...THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB."
The first group go to Heaven with Christ at the FIRST "TRUMP OF GOD" (I Thess. 4:16). The second group go to Heaven with Christ at the "LAST TRUMP" OF GOD (I Cor. 15:52,53). Both of these are trumps of God. The 7 trumpet judgments are sounded by angels. They are God's Wrath. "For God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thess. 5:9).
> > II Thes 2:1-12, Paul specifically speaks AGAINST the rapure here and tells them that satan will surely come FIRST, then Christ will appear. Christ only comes on the 7th trump.
It is crucial that you understand this passage correctly. It doesn't really say what you think it does. II Thess. 2:1-7(NIV) says, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (the Rapture), we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) has already come. DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU in any way, for that day (the Millennium) will not come until the rebellion (Gr., apostasia, departure, i.e., the Rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (at the beginning of the Tribulation), the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God (Mid-Trib). Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is HOLDING HIM BACK, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who how holds it back (the Holy Spirit) will continue to do so TILL HE IS TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY" (at the Rapture).
The man of sin will be revealed when he confirms the covenant, which seems to be the Final Status Peace Agreement that is to be signed Sept. 13, 2000. We have to be gone before he confirms that covenant.
> > I Thes 4:13-17 Paul is talking about where the dead are. Thay are already with Christ and not in the ground if you believe that Christ rose. When we are caught up to be with Christ this is in the 7th (LAST) trump. This is NOT a pre trib rapture.
I Thess. 4:16-18 (KJV) says, " the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: THEN WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN SHALL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS, TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore COMFORT ONE ANOTHER with these words."
Be comforted. You don't have to go through the Tribulation. The two Raptures are on the two days of the Son of man. The first is as the days of Noah. The second is as the days of Lot.
Lu. 17:22-29 says, " The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN, and ye shall NOT see it (here he is addressing the foolish Laodicean virgin that gets left behind at the first Rapture). And they shall say to you (in the Tribulation), See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOE, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in MARRIAGE (the first Rapture is for the Bride of Christ), until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF LOT; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded (no marriage is listed); But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom IT RAINED FIRE AND BRIMSTONE FROM HEAVEN, and destroyed them all."
The second Rapture is on the very day God's Wrath falls on unbelievers. They get out of here by the skin of their teeth. The asteroids impact Earth at noon (Zeph. 2:4). There is a worldwide earthquake and every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20). Civilization as we know it will be wiped out, and that is only by the 3rd trumpet judgment (Rev. 8:8,10). There is more to come. The Earth will be knocked upside down. Think of what this will do to the oceans. There will be so few men left that a child could write the number.
Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." Isa. 10:19 says, "And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, THAT A CHILD MAY WRITE THEM."
All believers are in Heaven getting their rewards when this takes place on Earth. Rev. 11:15-18 says, " And the seventh angel sounded (7th trumpet judgment); and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign (he gets his golden crown on this day) for ever and ever (this is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord). And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come (the Second Advent is still 7 months future, Eze. 39:12); because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry (Gog's army is attacking Israel), and THY WRATH IS COME (on Earth), and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED (AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST in Heaven), and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."
Ed just came in and said I should get to bed. It is 12:39 AM. I hope my time isn't wasted. Please look into these things. I have tried to help you. I am praying for you again. I don't want you to get left behind as a foolish virgin when the Lord comes for his Bride. Get ready, just in case. Remember, the Bride wears white. You can't be a foolish virgin (Mt. 25) or a lukewarm Laodicean and make it in the first Rapture. Rev. 3:16 says to them, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue (emesai, vomit) thee out of my mouth."
Jesus COMMANDED us to "WATCH ye therefore, and PRAY always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Lu. 21:36). You have to be accounted worthy. Only the worthy go with the Bridegroom when he comes for his Bride.
Will you agree with me to pray that you will be accounted worthy to escape all these things? Agape
I also have questions concerning Ezekiel 37. Reading it again recently, I was struck by the visceral impact of the imagery. Are we meant to take it only metaphorically as the rebirth of the nation of Israel?
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
What if not only Moses and Elijah, but the "whole house of Israel" were to be resurrected during the Tribulation? Granted, it's a wild idea, and I'm certainly not dogmatic about it. But do you know of anything that would contradict it? Thank you for taking time to answer.
Neither. Read Eze. 38:18-20; 39:2. It is the Day of God's Wrath, when the asteroid like a great mountain (Rev. 8:8) impacts the Mediterranean Sea (Zeph. 2:4,5) and kills all but 1/6th of Gog's forces. It is the day of the world-wide earthquake, when EVERY WALL SHALL FALL. It will take 7 months just to bury the bodies (Eze. 39:12). I think it will take place on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the shortened Tribulation.
> > Israel burns the weapons for seven years. That seems to place Ezekiel 38 right at the start of the Tribulation
What places it in the Tribulation? Can't it be in the Millennium so that the new crop of trees can get established?
> > perhaps providing the reason for Israel to sign the peace treaty with the Antichrist.
They are planning to sign the Final Status Treaty Sept. 13, 2000--FOR PEACE.
> > these bones are the whole house of Israel...I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel
I believe exactly what it says. "And David my servant shall be king over them" (v. 24). Jer. 30:9 says, "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them." This is in the Millennium. Daniel will stand in his lot on the 1335th day from the placing of the abomination of desolation Mid-Trib (Dan. 12:13). The land of Israel will be divided among the tribes by lot.
> > What if not only Moses and Elijah, but the "whole house of Israel" were to be resurrected during the Tribulation?
I don't think that will happen. It is the unbelievers that the Wrath of God will fall on. All believers have to be caught up in the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Why put the whole house of Israel on Earth before that? Agape
Similarly, the August 11, 1999 total solar eclipse did not yield the "King of Terror" anticipated by Nostradamus enthusiasts. However, for New Agers it heralded the period called the "Dawn of the New Light," a time for "change" to be set in motion. A nine month "gestation period" after the eclipse gives birth to the pearl necklace like string of planets of May, 2000. This marks the closing of the present Age of Pisces, and begins a period of reckoning, decision and judgement before the New Age dawns. Just this morning (5/27/00) a Jupiter/Saturn conjunction was visible on the eastern horizon. This conjunction will not occur again for another 20 years! Jay Gary's book, "The Star of 2000," claims that this conjunction will be viewed as the next Star of Bethlehem. Also, when Jupiter, the "King's Star," lined up with Saturn, the star of final authority, the ancient Jews called this the "Star of David."
These and many other New Age/Occult events are identified in "THE OCCULT CALENDAR" on the Watch Unto Prayer Site at http://www.watch.pair.com/calendar.html
Note that Venus first appears as the Morning Star (New Age type of Christ) on Pentecost, June 11, 2000!!!
Please check out the whole Watch Unto Prayer Site. It is the best site I've found for New Age/Occult/Secret Society information from a Christian/Biblical perspective. A comprehensive, well-organized bible prophecy study outline can be found at
This study presents the following unique concepts regarding the tribulation period:
1. During the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period, the secret societies are laying the groundwork to create the impression that the Pope is the Antichrist. He will be their scapegoat.
2. During the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period, the true Antichrist will reign over the world.
3. The secret societies will seek to fulfill all of the tribulation judgments and the Millennial promises concerning Israel during the whole 7 years of the Tribulation period.
4. They will seek to go "back to the future", i.e., going through time in reverse: Moses, Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham's separation from Ur of the Chaldees, Babylon, post-flood days of Noah, pre-flood days of Noah, Garden of Eden, Creation.
5. They will seek to destroy the heavens and earth at the end of the Tribulation period.
6. The Book of Revelation follows a strict chronological order. It also provides the following significant projection:
"The generation (40 years) that began with the capture of Jerusalem with the 6-day war, June 5-10, 1967, will not end before Christ returns for Israel - in other words, before June 10, 2007. Seven years before His return the Tribulation period will begin - (Daniel's 70th week of years) - in which the Temple will be rebuilt and Jerusalem and the Temple desolated. This is why the Antichrist will appear during these 7 years."
With that premise, the Tribulation MUST begin by JULY 17, 2000 (counting backwards 7 prophetic years/2520 days from June 10, 2007), and therefore, the Rapture MUST precede this date (based on a Pre-Trib. Rapture)! In that case, the Feast of Trumpets this year would be too late! PENTECOST, 2000 JUST KEEPS LOOKING BETTER ALL THE TIME!!!
PREPARE TO MEET THE BRIDEGROOM!!! Another Watchman in Christ
Pro and Con 523 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: firstname.lastname@example.org
8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110
© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee