Bless you--for lots of reasons. First, you have the best of two worlds. You are Jewish, as Yahshua, the Lord Jesus Christ is, and you recognize him as your Messiah. More than that, I can see that you understand that we are living in the end of the age. His coming is near any way we figure it. Wish we were closer together...
Thank you so much for sharing with me what the Lord said to you. It is similar to what was told Dr. Eby. I have a friend who was walking on the sidewalk at the corner of their yard. She heard a voice say, "YOU WILL NEVER DIE." Another lady I have corresponded with heard something similar to "I AM COMING IN YOUR LIFETIME." I have a record somewhere of the exact words, but it is too time consuming to dig through the tons of stuff I have saved. That is close if not exact.
The Lord woke me up in the wee hours one morning. I was absolutely terrified. My heart was beating like a little bird trying to get out. He said, "BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM GOD." My heart quieted instantly. I didn't move till daylight, but nothing else happened. It was about another 20 years before I realized what must have happened that night. I was reading the Septuagint. Job 33:14-16 says, "when the Lord speaks once, or a second time, sending a dream, or in the meditation of the night; (as when a dreadful alarm happens to fall upon men, in slumberings on the bed;) then opens he the understanding of men." I had prayed to understand all that he wanted man to know about the Bible, all the deep things--everything." I had already studied hard 7 years, but even so, I still didn't know what I was asking. There is so much in the Bible, I don't think anyone ever can get to the bottom of it in one lifetime.
> > June is spelled two ways in Hebrew, one is" Sivan", the other is "Yownah", which means "Like a Dove"
Thanks bunches. I didn't know there was another spelling. The Dove reminds us of Lu. 3:22: "And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
A gray dove was in the street in front of me today. I had to put on the brakes until it got out of the way. One with white markings was in the driveway the other day as I drove in too. They seem so unafraid, not skittish like other birds. A mother sat on her nest as we looked at her, on top of a porch post at the neighbor's. We could have reached her if we had tried, but she just looked at us, didn't move a feather. Others have been noticing doves lately too. One man said one got in his driveway in front of him at least once a day, and he had to stop the car until it got out of the way. I have always liked their cooing. I understand that in Israel they come in April and are cooing from nearly every twig and bush, hard to miss. That fits the Second Advent. I think Hos. 6:3 and Eze. 29:17,21 show that Christ will return as the latter rain on the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year. It is April 6 in 2008. Wonder if that will be when the doves return also. It would be fitting.
I'm hanging in there. Don't worry. Shalom and agape
Here are some reasons why this woman cannot symbolize either Israel or Mary,bringing forth Jesus.
1.Firstly prophecy foretells; it does not use symbolic language to recall something from the past,& this prophecy was given circa 90AD or approx 90 yrs after the birth of Jesus.
If vs 5 refers to Jesus ascension,that would put a 2000 yr gap between vs's 5&6.
Jesus was not "caught up to heaven" at birth, nor at his ascension, as he then rose slowly & majestically.
If we wish to interpret prophecy,we must be totally consistent,and let the bible interpret the bible. How could a symbolic woman give birth to a literal child?
The final proof is in the original Greek words where the 4 references to Jesus ascension use different words; analambo = received up;anaphero = carried up; epairo =taken up. All of the obvious scripture references to the rapture or resurrection of the saints, (13),harpazo = snatched away, forcefully caught up in haste, are identical with Rev.12:5. The child was to rule all nations with a rod of iron,which was the same as the promise to the overcomers from the Thyatira church ch.2:26,27.
Micah 5:1-3 after describing the place of Jesus birth, said He would give them up (the Jews),until the time when she which travaileth hath brought forth.....then the remnant of his people shall return to the children of Israel. Isaiah 66(&6 other refs.) speak of the travail of Zion bringing forth her children,which I understand as the sealing of the 144000 Israelites.
So, there we have a complete picture of the large body of the church (woman) being separated,the wise virgins from the foolish or neglectful,the saints taken to heaven,joining Michael in throwing the Devil out of the heavenlies,to earth,where he will persecute the seed of the woman for 3.5 years.
Could anything be clearer?! Maranatha.
The setting of this entire chapter is Mid-Trib. The two witnesses have prophesied for the first 1260 days of the 7-year Tribulation (Rev. 11:3). Just as their 1260-day ministry is ending, Satan is cast out of Heaven and "cast out into the earth" (Rev. 12:9). He ascends out of the bottomless pit, enters into the False Prophet and "sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). He places the "abomination of desolation" at the temple (Mt. 24:15) and probably demands that the two witnesses bow down to it. They won't, so he kills them.
Rev. 11:3-13 says, "I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days...when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit (Satan) shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city...where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves....And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, COME UP HITHER. And THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the REMNANT were affrighted, and GAVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN." Israel is in labor. She is beginning to bring forth her children.
After "her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne," this REMNANT of the 12 tribes of Israel, this "woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place (Petra), where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.....And the dragon was wroth with the woman (Israel), and went to make war with the REMNANT OF HER SEED, which keep the commandments of God, and HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST" (i.e., with the Messianic Jews) (Rev. 12:6,14,17).
Here are the verses where HARPAZO is used. It means caught up, snatched away, taken by a force.
Acts 8:39: "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord CAUGHT AWAY Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more."
II Cor. 12:2,4: "I knew a man (it is Paul himself) in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP to the third heaven....How that he was CAUGHT UP into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."
I Thess. 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Rev. 12:5: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was CAUGHT UP unto God, and to his throne." Agape
***From Marilyn: Thanks. I'll continue, Lord willing.
Study of the bible is an immense task that no one person can complete in one life time. There are just too many mysteries within its pages that are hidden in types and similes and parables and symbols. Even after many readings, new truths come to light that were never even suspected before. You have done a wonderful job of revealing many of them.
I really marvel at the absolute correctness of the bible and how time after time the bible is proved correct and never ever proven wrong. Unfortunately people that interpret the bible are not always as correct as the bible itself. This is not an accusation of any kind, only an unfortunate fact. It is to a persons credit that they try to illuminate the scriptures for others, even if in some instances they are wrong, as long as it is done in good faith.
The rapture is a very difficult subject to tackle, one that does not yield its' truths easily or completely. Many is the night that I have lied awake praying that you are correct and that we are out of here before the bad stuff starts. if not, God promises that if we are one of the ones put in jail, tortured and killed that his holy spirit will protect us, in that we will be given the strength to endure. I am too much of a coward to give my life in such a way and that makes me cry to know that if I am left behind without Gods holy spirit to help me; I'm dead. How will the holy spirit help those that are left behind?
***He hasn't told us specifically, but just think of all the millions of Christians that have been killed because of their faith. Many went out singing, praying, etc--totally unafraid. That is what the Holy Spirit did for them in their hour of need. Jesus said that without him we could do nothing, and it is literally true. He also said that he would never leave us. Rest in him, no matter what the future might hold. He is the one that has strength, not we ourselves.
The reason that I do not know that you are correct about the pretrib rapture is because even though you have provided many scriptures to support a pretrib rapture, I am not so sure that you have used all the scriptures correctly and also that there seems to be a dimension of knowledge about the rapture missing from the understanding of all the writers on prophecy that I have read so far. I will explain what I can remember (I have nothing written down) in the hope of shedding some light on the subject of the rapture either from me or to me, one way or the other! Your website gives me the opportunity to do this and I thank you!
The first thing that comes to mind is, Second Thessalonians. A book that is used by both pretribbers and posttribbers too support their views on the rapture. However, it is questionable to me if anyone understands it correctly. The biggest problem being the identity of "HE who now restrains"
***"He" is the Holy Spirit that is in us. Jesus said that we are the salt of the Earth. Salt is the most important ingredient in breadmaking. It has to be measured very carefully. Too much and the leaven (symbol of evil) won't grow. Too little and the loaf will overproof. When we are gone, there will not be enough salt to restrain the growth of evil. The whole loaf will be leavened quickly. It is not hard to tell that this will indeed be true. The United Religions charter is due to be signed June 26, 2000.
(2:7). But let me start at the beginning since there are other problems as well.
Chapter one:NKJ 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble (present tense) you. 7 and to give you who are troubled (present tense) rest with us when the lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
***II Thess. 1:5-11 says, "we ourselves glory in YOU (believers) in the churches of God for YOUR PATIENCE (Rev. 3:10) and FAITH in all your persecutions and tribulations that YE endure (Satan's sifting us as wheat): Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that YE may be COUNTED WORTHY of the kingdom of God, for which YE (those going to be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture) also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to THEM (those NOT going to Heaven before the Tribulation) that trouble YOU (church saints of the Pre-Trib Rapture); AND to YOU who are TROUBLED (Tribulation saints) REST WITH US (church saints in Heaven), when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED from heaven (Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14-16) with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE (the 7 trumpet judgments) on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be (in the future) punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come (Second Advent) to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them...in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for YOU (believers), that our God would COUNT YOU WORTHY OF THIS CALLING" (the Pre-Trib Rapture).
***Lu. 21:30 ties in. It says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS (the Tribulation) that shall (in the future) come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (at the Pre-Trib Rapture, Rev. 5:9).
In the versus above, the action seems to take place in the present tense, all these things happen at the same time. We are being troubled (Jacob's trouble, i.e. the tribulation) when Jesus returns and takes vengeance. The only indication here of a pretrib rapture is to ask the question, where will Paul be when this occurs, will he have been part of a previous rapture. The language seems to imply that Paul and company ("us") are alreadyat rest when the ones who are troubled receive their rest.
Chapter two: 1 Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2 not to soon be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Paul's focus of concern is the correct understanding of the "day of Christ" in which he includes "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering to him" making it all one event. Then Paul goes on to say: 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day (of Christ) will not come unless the falling away (apostasy) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.
Since the "day of Christ" includes "our gathering to him" it is obvious that the "falling away" is not "our gathering to him". Because, it makes no sense to say that he cannot come and gather us until we are gathered.
***I Thess. 2:1-5 (NIV) says, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (at the Pre-Trib Rapture), we ask you, brothers (believers), not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the DAY OF THE LORD (the Millennium) has already come. (Elijah has to prophesy first, Mal. 4:5.) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion (apostasia, departure, as in apospao, draw away, i.e., the Pre-Trib Rapture) occurs and the man of lawlessness (the False Prophet) is revealed (when he and the Beast confirm the Final Status Peace Agreement as the Tribulation begins), the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God" (Mid-Trib).
And now to versus six and seven which are in my opinion the source of the most confusion. 6 And now you know WHAT is restraining that he may be revealed in his own time.
Why do we know now! Because, we have just been told. Jesus cannot be revealed (and gather us) until the apostasy happens revealing the son of perdition first. The restraining in verse six is not restraining the man of sin because, Paul's focus up until this point has been WHAT is preventing his coming and gathering us.
Now the focus switches to the man of sin and WHO is restraining him from appearing. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
There is a lot of debate over who "He" is which I will not get into here. I will say that I do not believe that "He" is the Holy Spirit or Michael or someone on earth. I believe that "He" is none other than Jesus himself, not physically of course, since Jesus is not on the earth at this time, but doctrinally taken out of the way.
***"He" is the Holy Spirit, which is the same as the Spirit of Christ. Rom. 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his."
The very apostasy itself is the removing of Jesus from the Christian churches. In this manner he is taken out of the way so that the one world church can be formed. If the Christian churches include Jesus in the UR charter the rest of the world's religions will not sign the charter. The Christian churches that sign the UR charter will by so doing deny Jesus, deny that he is God, deny that he is the son of God, deny that he is the righteous king of this world. And when Jesus is thusremoved from the church the church age is over and the seventieth week of Daniel will have begun! The covenant (apostasy) with many (religions) will have been confirmed and the man of sin, the son of perdition revealed.
One point to consider is when does the apostasy become manifest, when it is agreed upon or when it is confirmed by signing. In my mind the apostasy is now manifest and the man of sin revealed. The signing would then be just a formality.
This means that the conditions of second Thessalonians for the rapture to happen have been met if it can be shown that there is a gap between the gathering and the Lords vengeance.
***There is quite a gap between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 8.
Now onto a missing dimension of knowledge concerning the rapture that was mentioned earlier. Having to do with the timing thereof you base your belief of it occurring in the spring mainly on the Song Of Solomon. Please consider Jesus promise to us in John 14:2 In my fathers house are many mansions (rooms,chambers); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself that where I am, there you may be there also.
Now look at Song 1:4 Lead me away...The King has brought me into his chambers.
At this point the rapture is symbolized as having happened, since we are already in his chambers. Then what is Song 2:10 all about? 10 My beloved spoke, and said to me: "Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away....the flowers appear on the Earth ..."
They are rising from where the king's chambers are (heaven) and going to the earth where the flowers appear so that we can: 15 catch us the foxes, the little foxes that spoil the vines.
Why say the flowers appear on the earth when you could just say the flowers appear? Do we catch the little foxes in heaven? Are the vines being ruined in heaven? No, we come to where the flowers are, the foxes are and where the vines are being ruined, the Earth.
***I think "Rise up" has to be from "the Earth." If it were the other way, we would come down, not rise up.
What about Esther chap 2:3 and let the king appoint officers in all the provinces of his kingdom, that they may gather all the beautiful young virgins to Shushan the citadel, into the women's quarters...
***Esth. 2:19 says, "when the VIRGINS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER THE SECOND TIME, then Mordecai sat in the king's gate." This suggests both the Pre-Trib and Pre-Wrath Raptures. The wise virgins are gathered the first time, the foolish ones the second time.
Once again we find the virgins in the king's chambers, the wise Esther and the others. Just as the daughters of Jerusalem in song of Solomon are in the king's chambers but say that they will follow. Just as the ten virgins are in heaven and the wise virgins get to go into the wedding while the foolish ones try to follow later and are rejected.
This is a missing dimension in the understanding about the rapture. Once we get to heaven a lot happens. We must not be foolish and we must show increase as in the parable of the talents. To whom much is given, much is required.
...I hope that there is some value in what I have written you. I have a lot more to share about the rapture as well as many other subjects in the bible, even some things that have not been revealed by any author that I've read.I would be glad to share some of my ideas, some of which are provocative and unusual and I hope valid. Of course if I'm totally shot down here in my understanding then I'll probably return to minding my own business. Thanks again for giving me the opportunity to have at least tried.
***I'd like to hear the things you have learned. Agape
I read 1Thess. chapter 4, and found it to be exactly as you had quoted; as I continued on to finish 1Thess., I was particularly struck by the following passage: 1Thess. 5:9-10: "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him."
This seems to say to me that God does not intend for his true, living believers to have to live through the "wrath" of Tribulation, but that we shall be caught up together with the dead in Christ in the pre-trib rapture (as you have so patiently stated over and over again). Do you agree with this?
For me, it is a great comfort and a period of great excitement ahead. The changes in my life have been amazing, as I find my interests pulling me toward studying the word of God and away from other pastimes.
May the Lord God bless you - and thank you for coming into my life. Your sister in Christ
> > This seems to say to me that God does not intend for his true, living believers to have to live through the "wrath" of Tribulation
I think the Day of God's Wrath is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. No believers will be left on Earth to go through that. Both Rapture will take place before the asteroids impact Earth.
Rev. 3:19 shows that the Lord will chasten those he loves that are not going to be taken up in the first Rapture. It is for their own good. They must wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb and be caught up the second time.
I have tried as hard as I can to jolt some out of their complacency, to get them to confess their sins and be wearing those white robes we need. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I just have to pray for those that won't learn and hope they remember something later on when they are more open to these things. I know they are apt to be in the group weeping and gnashing their teeth after the first Rapture takes place (Lu. 12:46; Mt. 24:51). At least, I tried to warn them. Their hard heads may not be quite so hard later on. The Tribulation they have chosen is not going to be a picnic. I feel so sorry for them, but what more can I do? As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Blessings. Agape
These last, I think, include the following: Daniel 12:7 "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon themwaters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."
Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."
Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Revelation 12:13-14 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
Despite your protestations, Madam, I have tried make the 2300 days fit the 'shortening of the days' prophecy but I cannot do so and, as you know from our previous correspondence, I find your explanations raise more questions than they answer. Sorry about that! God Bless you.
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