Pro and Con 549

Posted 7-6-00

Incoming email

Re: Anchor Cross
Your website refers to the double anchors in the heavens. When I first saw this picture of the double anchor I thought of the anchor cross symbol inscribed at Gordon's Calvary in Jerusalem. I first learned of the anchor cross while on a tour in Jerusalem. Apparently one of the proofs of the authenticity of the tomb is the fact that an anchor cross is chiseled into the stone above the tomb entrance. The tour guide quoted Hebrews 6:19 :

Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

The following website outlines the meaning of the anchor cross:


My reply

This is such exciting news.

The Web site has information on other types of crosses too. This particular file pictures the Anchor Cross and says, "The Anchor Cross is formed when the top part of an anchor is in the shape of a cross....During the days when the early church was being persecuted, the Anchor Cross was used by Christians. While Christians saw hope and strength in the symbol, their enemies saw only an anchor."

What an appropriate sign this shape is for us. The astronomers see a ring-jet or crossbow, even though a crossbow is not double. We now see the Anchor Cross, thanks to you.

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Re: jovial623-2.htm on 5 Doves
Jovial (23 June)"Tiberius Coin"

I was checking into the Tiberius coin that was mentioned earlier and came up with something interesting. At I found a coin dated for the 19th year of Tiberius that showed the head of Tiberius on one side and Y'shua wearing a crown of thorns on the other side. See photo below.

My reply

Sorry to be so long answering. This is a neat coin. According to my research, Tiberius began to be Co-Rex with Augustus in 12 AD. He was the sole ruler over Palestine, Augustus concerning himself with other parts of the realm. Tiberius became Sole-Rex in 14 AD.

The 15th of Tiberius was 26 AD, when Jesus was baptised near his birthday. This means that the 19th of Tiberius was 30 AD, the year of the Crucifixion. That's perfect. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Mikveh In the July issue of Biblical Archaeology Review are several articles about mikva'ot (singluar, mikveh), and you might find these interesting.

They point out that the minimum requirements are a volume of 40 seahs of"living" (not drawn) water. [Interesting Christian parallel about the"living water" part.]

The articles are interesting descriptions of these pools, with steps,sometimes 2 sets of steps so that one entered ritually impure and exited pure after total immersion. (Sounds like some modern sects practicing baptism by total immersion).

So evidently, 5760 egg volumes is the MINIMUM amount of water allowed. Remember the rabbinic saying about "the years of man are the measure of a Mikveh"?

There are also articles about how water was carried to Sepphoris, 4 miles northwest of Nazareth, in the time of Jesus.

Try to get a copy if you can.

My reply

Thanks for the interesting information.

I was baptized by sprinkling in the Methodist church, but when I found out that baptizo meant immersion, I changed to the Baptist church and was immersed. I wanted to be immersed because Jesus was. Agape

His reply

The Jewish and Christian parallels are amazing! Not only is the Mikvah ceremony very much like Baptist Baptism, but at the end of the Sabbath service, there is breaking of the bread (Challah) and offering wine. Remarkable isn't it?

Incoming email

FWD: Re: Firstfruits completed on Tabernacles" & "The Feast of Ingathering"

Marilyn, You may already have seen these articles from the Five Doves site...In Him Ola Ilori (2 July), Ola Ilori (3 July)...

My reply

Thanks, but I disagree with Ola Ilori on some things.

> > I am convinced more than ever that the rapture will happen during the feast of Tabernacles, which is also called the feast of ingathering.

I think the fulfillment of Tabernacles will follow the fulfillment of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement at the beginning of the Millennium. If the Rapture was to be now on Tabernacles, the feasts would be fulfilled out of order. I think the Nisan feasts were fulfilled in 30 AD and that the Tishri feasts will be fulfilled in the Millennium. The ingathering then is of the Israelites. The Scriptures will be read to them to prepare them for life on Earth during the Millennium.

> > The feast of ingathering, however, has not been fulfilled. The word "ingathering" in Hebrew has a very interesting meaning indeed. It comes from the Hebrew word "apokruphos" which means "TO HIDE" "TO CONCEAL AWAY" "TO KEEP SECRET SOMETHING THAT IS OF MUCH VALUE"...I believe that this a reference to the rapture, especially when we consider the phrase "to hide...For in Isaiah we read, "Come, my people (that's us folks!), enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: HIDE THYSELF AS IT WERE FOR A LITTLE MOMENT (SEVEN YEARS, I BELIEVE), until the INDIGNATION (GREAT TRIBULATION) be overpast. For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth..." (26:20, 21) I don't think a "little moment" is 7 years long. The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the Feast of Trumpets that begins the millennial Day of the Lord. Those people will hide for a little moment while the 7 trumpet judgments hit Earth with the catastrophe that same day.

> > I am convinced now that the Lord is going to come for us during the feast of tabernacles, and seven years later we are going to return with Him, during the feast of tabernacles according to Zechariah 14.

I am convinced that Christ will return with "all the saints with thee" (Zech. 14:5) on Nisan 1, the first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year. Eze. 29:17 sets the day, "the first month, in the first day of the month." Then verse 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (Word, Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD." Hos. 6:3 says, "the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." I believe Jesus came at the First Advent as the former rain on Tishri 1, and he will come at the Second Advent as the latter rain on Nisan 1.

> > The Lord has been showing me, from His Word, the whole purpose of Pentecost. It is a means whereby the Lord can sound the FIRST TRUMPET, through the Church, for the resurrection into Eternal Life of all those who believe in Him. In other words, were ever the gospel is being preached, be it on the radio, tv, in crusades or in churches, The Lord is actually sounding the First Trumpet....From the day of Pentecost until now the Lord HAS BEEN RAISING THE SPIRITUAL DEAD through the Church whenever the Gospel is being preached. THIS TRUMPET IS CALLED "THE FIRST TRUMPET" BECAUSE ITS PURPOSE IS FOR THE RESURRECTION OF THE SPIRITUAL DEAD.

I take the Lord at his word. I expect a loud sound like they heard at Pentecost at Sinai, when the first trumpet of the Bible sounded. The Rapture is the FIRST TRUMPET OF GOD. Sinai was a type.



I don't think this is so, and know of no scripture that would back it up. I think the FIRST TRUMPET OF GOD is at the Pre-Trib Rapture (I Thess. 4:13-18). I think the "LAST TRUMP" is at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Agape

Incoming email

Thanks for responding to my FYI -Firstfruits etc (Ola Ilori). Are we grabbing at straws?
From your page...
"Messianic Rabbi Michael Rood [] announced today on the Prophecy Club that the corrected Solar Calendar proves that Shavuot begins this year on July 9th. This because the barley was 'Abib', green/ripe, on May 5th.

This makes Oct. 28th Tishri 1.

If his calculations are correct then the Pentecost Rapture may still occur this year."
...otherwise, not this year? Do we still have hope? In Him

My reply

I have a feeling that Michael Rood is grasping at straws. I just can't get out of my mind that Pentecost should be in the spring. I hope he is right, though.

I do have high hopes for this year. This is the 7th year since the Oslo Accords were signed. I think we need to be gone before the Tribulation starts, and I expect the 70th week of Daniel to start on the next Feast of Weeks (Sivan 6 in 2001). Rev. 17:14 says that "they are ARE with him (the 'Lord of lords, and King of kings') ARE called, and chosen, and faithful." At this time, the ten kings "have received NO kingdom as yet" (v. 12). But, as the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, all 10 are crowned. I expect us to be caught up before they are crowned. Song of Sol. 2:10-14 fits spring or summer. The important thing is for us to stay ready. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Recent reader
I have just started following your page. First time I had ever considered 2 raptures - in some ways it seems to make a lot of sense but seems as though the support for the idea in scripture is a little weak (not absent - just not strong). It would make a lot of sense for all Christians to be gone before the wrath of God is poured out.

Got a "dumb question" that has been nagging on me. I would appreciate your fresh perspective on it.

1 Thes. 4:16 ...And the dead in Christ will rise first"

I jokingly used to use this as a Biblical confirmation that us Methodists (at least that was the church I attended back then) would be the first in to Heaven.

Will the dead rise from the grave directly to heaven? If so, are they all asleep now or is to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord?

If they are simply rising from the grave to heaven, this would not affect us living souls much in any way that I can think of so why would it be placed in the Bible?

OR.. (this is what I am pondering) Would the dead in Christ will rise first mean that they will RISE back to life on earth first and then we shall together be caught up in the air? There were several people brought back from the dead along with Christ on the first Easter Sunday. Is it possible this is what will be happening - perhaps on July 9?

Just curious. Again, I really appreciate your insight.

My reply

> > 2 raptures

Not knowing what you have read, I may duplicate, but I'll tell you a bit of what I think about the 2 Raptures. I Thess. 4:13-18 speaks of the FIRST TRUMP OF GOD. I Cor. 15:51,52 speaks of the "LAST TRUMP" of God.

There are 2 Days of the Son of Man, i.e., 2 Raptures. Lu. 17:22-24 addresses the Tribulation saints. It says, " The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS OF THE SON OF MAN, and ye shall not see it (i.e., they are foolish Laodicean virgins). And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in HIS DAY."

The first Day of the Son of Man, the Pre-Trib Rapture, is as the days of Noah (Lu. 17:26). No fire fell, only rain, a symbol of the Holy Spirit of God. The second Day of the Son of Man, the Pre-Wrath Rapture, is as the days of Lot. Lu. 17:29 says, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all."

Lu. 12:46 addresses the foolish servant. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS." Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

The foolish Laodiceans are spued out of Christ's mouth and left behind to be chastized (Rev. 3:16). The foolish virgins are left behind because they do not have enough oil of the Holy Spirit (Mt. 25). To not quench the Holy Spirit, we need to use I Jn. 1:9, confess our known sins committed since we accepted Christ to bring them all under the blood of Christ. Jesus told Peter that He must wash Peter's feet so he would be clean every whit. We need white robes, i.e., clean feet. The foolish Laodiceans learn this lesson the hard way. By the second Rapture, they have washed their robes in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14).

The Gentile Enoch was a type of the first Rapture. He was taken up before any tribulation hit. No fire appeared that day. The Hebrew Elijah was a type of the second Rapture. Jezebel was trying to kill him. He had tribulation, and was caught up out of it. Fire appeared at that time.

Those caught up to Heaven before the first seal is broken are seen in Rev. 5:9. Those caught up to Heaven between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14.

All saints are in Heaven at the Judgment Seat of Christ, just before God's Wrath is poured out on unbelievers. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." The saints are not appointed to wrath.

> > Will the dead rise from the grave directly to heaven? If so, are they all asleep now or is to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord?

Jesus took the OT saints to Heaven on Resurrection Day and returned to Earth. Since then, each believer that dies is absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Jesus will bring them with him at the Rapture. They will get their resurrection bodies first, then we will rise to meet them in the air.

I think it will all happen quickly. I'm not sure about July 9. Hope Rood is right, but I can't help thinking that Pentecost must be in the spring. However, Song of Sol. 2:10-14 fits both spring and summer. Stay ready, whenever it is. I don't see how it can be much longer. We need to be like Enoch. He walked with God. So did Noah.

Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Agape

His reply

Wow, impressive response! Yes, I can see how it can all fit together. Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to go through the scriptures.

I don't know what the day will be either but it is so exciting watching and praying I am having a hard time focusing on my work...I have been leaning strongly towards the feast of trumpets as a strong candidate but I don't think I will quit my job and go stand on a mountain. 8-)

Besides, they don't have Internet connections there and I don't want to miss out on a single day of seeing what Christ is doing next!

Again, thanks for your fast, in depth response.

Incoming email

***From Marilyn: I will intersperse my remarks in your email. Agape

Re: Storacles of Prophecy by Amazing Facts
First I gotta tell you I have been reading your web site for almost three years, and decided to take this prophecy class, what a shock to be studying their materials!!...and we're in the third class, which I didn't make, but I'm doing the study at home, which is provided by Amazing Facts(24 classes). If, when you have time, it would be awesome if you could challenge these beliefs which are as follows: I'm not even sure if I want to finish the rest of the classes if this is how they believe?? By the way I type copied this whole section at the end of our study, so... you understand!!Love you site, and your enthusiasm for the Word of God!! Love in the Lord!!

***I would quit this class and study the Bible for yourself. Ask the Lord to help you understand what it means. He will. The secret rapture theory. The secret rapture theory is based upon eight premises that have been so widely embraced that most people accept them as fact without pausing to investigate. However, our only safety is to search the Sciptures daily to determine whether those things are so(Acts 17:11). the eight points are(followed by their challenges). 1. The rapture is silent.

***I don't think it is silent. There will be the trump of God. When the Israelites heard it at Sinai, it scared them, it was so loud.

2. The rapture is invisible.

*** I think Psa. 40:1-3 shows that it is seen. It says, " I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry. He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (out of our bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song (sung after the Rapture, Rev. 5:9) in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.

The rapture leaves the wicked alive. God removes the righteous to protect them from the tribulation.
5. Christ's second coming will be in two stages:(1) the secret rapture, and (2) the actual coming, which will be glorious.

***I don't think the Rapture will be secret.

6. These two stages of the second coming will be 7 years apart.

***I think that both Raptures will be at least 2300 days apart, probably more, and that the Second Coming is still 7 Jewish months after the 2nd Rapture.

7. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist, who will then bring about the tribulation. 8. The wicked will at this point have a second chance to be converted and to serve Christ.

1. The rapture is not silent, but rather is extremely noisy. The scriptures say Jesus will descend "with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD"1 Thessalonians 4:16, emphasis added. David says, "Our God shall come, and shall not keep shall be very tempestuous[violent, whirling] round about him." Psalm 50:3. And Jeremiah says, " The Lord shall roar from on high,...he shall mightily roar...; he shall give a shout...A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth." Jeremiah 25:30,31. Nothing about it is quiet! Christ will come with a noise heard around the world. Mark this well. If you are living when Jesus returns, you will hear Him come. Your ears will ring with catastrophic noise.

***Both references are to the day of the second Rapture.

My comment to this is Matthew 25:6 says " And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him." so isn't this separate from the Trumps being sounded?

***It comes at the same time.

2. The rapture is not invisible; it will be seen by all. All the angels will come with Jesus(Matthew 25:31).

***Where does it say all the angels will come with Jesus at the Rapture? Mt. 25:31 says, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." That is the Second Advent, not the Rapture.

One loan angel appeared at Jesus resurrection, and his brightness was so overpowering that the entire Roman guard fell to the ground as dead men(Matthew 28:2-4). Consider the staggering brightness of all the angels of heaven! Added to the glory of the Angels will be Jesus' own glory(Matthew 25:31) and the glory of his Father(Matthew 16:27). The brightness will be overwhelming. Jesus added, " For as the lightning cometh out of the east, shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be."

***The latter applies at the Second Advent.

Matthew 24:27. Secret? By no stretch of the imagination. In fact, the Bible forever settled this by saying, "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him." Revelation 1:7. Rest assured, if you are living at Jesus' second coming, you will see Him come!

***Every eye shall see him at the Second Advent.

3. The rapture does not leave the wicked alive. They are slain at the Lords coming.(Isaiah 11:4; Malachi 4:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8).

***Both Raptures leave the wicked alive. After the first one, the ones left behind have to go through the Tribulation. After the second one, the Wrath of God is cast on unbelievers. So many die that a child could write the number of men left.

4. God does not remove the righteous from the tribulation, but rather protects them through it(Psalm 91:5-12).

***Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

5. Christ second coming will not be in two stages- one secret and the other seen by all. There is only one second coming, and it will be seen by every living person on earth. There is no Scipture to support a two phase second coming.

***I believe that there are 2 Raptures, then 7 months (Eze., 39:12) after the 2nd Rapture before the Second Advent. At the Rapture, we rise up to meet Him in the air. At the Second Advent, "all the saints (will come) with thee" (Zech. 14:5). On the day of the 2nd Rapture, " then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth (the Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of heaven" (those that were in the first Rapture. They are all called to the general assembly for the Marriage of the Lamb and the Judgment Seat of Christ.

6. The secret rapture teachers claim that there is a seven year period between the two second comings of Christ. This is not scriptural.

***The first group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9, before the first seal is broken. The second group is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14 between the breaking of the 6th and 7th seals. They are in Heaven 7 months (Eze. 39:12) before the Second Advent.

7. Antichrist does not appear three and one half years after the second coming of Jesus. He has been active for centuries(1 John 4:3) and is doing his nefarious work even now.

***He cannot be revealed until we, as the salt of the Earth, indwelt by thee Holy Spirit, are gone. Then the Holy Spirit's restraining influence will be withdrawn. Then the Beast and False Prophet of Rev. 13 will be revealed when they confirm the covenant.

8. The wicked will not have a second opportunity to be saved after the second coming. All sinners will be destroyed at the second coming. There is no second opportunity for anyone after Jesus coming.

***Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats at the Judgment of the Nations. The goats will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Mt. 25:41).

Incoming email

Re: Rain in Israel
Marilyn, please read Olivia's "Fwd: News From The Land Update Special Edition: June 26, 2000," which appears in the June 30 edition of the Five Doves.

It is an article about the public gathering, in Jerusalem, in support of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza on June 26th. As I was reading the beginning of the article, and came to the part about the prayers, the hair on my arms and legs stood straight up, and then the words that followed included "Raindrops from the sky. It never rains in Israel in June....." More signs.

My reply

Thanks. I feel for them. Here is the URL for the whole story: Editor: Sondra Oster Baras, Director of CFIC's Israel Office

...I wanted to share with you my experiences last week as an ordinary citizen of Samaria. I am sure many of you have seen press reports of the various rallies and demonstrations that the so-called "settlers" have staged in Jerusalem in recent weeks. I thought you might be interested in the story behind the story, in the passions and concerns of those involved....

But no one doubted the efficacy of the prayer gathering.

At the conclusion of the prayer session, the entire crowd started to march towards the Prime Minister's residence, where an additional rally was held. As we neared the center of the crowd, we heard the voices of politicians and settlement leaders through the loudspeakers that were spread across the streets of central Jerusalem. And just as we strained to hear what was being said, we felt a few drops. Raindrops from the sky. It never rains in Israel in June, and these few raindrops were barely felt, as they lasted just a few seconds. However, it seemed to me that they were special raindrops, coming right from Heaven. Could it be that G-d himself was crying for the Land of Israel? Could it be that he had heard our prayers and understood the sadness that permeated that air that evening?

Incoming email

Fwd: Pope to consecrate new millennium to Mary

Just as Texe Marrs and Power of Prophecy predicted, the Pope made a historic visit to the Holy Land. His next project will be to declare that Mary is mankind's "Co-redeemer."

Pope John Paul II will conduct an act of dedicating the new millennium to Mary, the Vatican has announced. According to The Immaculate Heart Messenger, a major Catholic magazine, the consecration will take place on October 7th, 2000, on the occasion of the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary.

The Pontiff has ordered that the "miraculous statue" of Mary which rests on the spot of the apparitions of Mary at Fatima, Portugal, be transported to Rome to be set up inside St. Peter's Basilica. There the Pope will lead a night-time torchlight procession, then kneel and pray before the statue of Mary.

A number of Catholic officials are convinced that the Pope will also use the occasion to formally declare as dogma the widely held Catholic belief that Mary is Co-redeemer of Mankind. They note that when Pope John Paul II first took office, he pledged, "Totus Tuus Maria" ("I am totally yours, Mary.")

My reply

Thanks. Do you hear approaching hoofbeats? I Tim. 2:5 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Rev. 6:1 is at the beginning of the Tribulation. It says, "I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." The word translated bow is "toxon," a bow of the simplest fabric. This rider parading as a prince of peace is a man of the cloth, i.e., a religious leader.

"Toxon" is from "tikto," to produce, from seed, as a mother. By the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, the world will soon have "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:5).

Before the Beast (Rev. 13:1) and the 10 subsidiary kings are crowned (Rev. 17:12), the Rapture will take place. Rev. 17:14 says, "the Lamb...he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that ARE with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." How close we must be.

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