Pro and Con 559

Posted 7-26-00

Lu. 21:25,28: "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars (lit., constellations)...And when these things BEGIN to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You can see the astonishing Blood Moon of July 16, 2000 on Astronomy Picture of the Day, July 26, 2000: http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html
"As the Moon passed almost directly through the center of Earth's shadow on July 16th, sky gazers in the Pacific hemisphere were graced by a lingering lunar eclipse. The total phase lasted 1 hour and 47 minutes, the longest since 1859. A longer total lunar eclipse won't occur until the year 3000."

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Re: rapture
Your question:
If there were not 2 Raptures, how would you explain there being a "last trump" (I Cor. 15:51,52) without a first trump (I Thess. 4:13-17)?

(All quotes are in New King James):
1 Cor. 15:51,52 Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptable and we shall be changed.
***
Here it is quite obvious that there will be a trumpet sound - the last trumpet and then the next thing that happens is the rapture. Scripture is very clear on the fact that it will be the last trumpet.
****
1 Thess. 4:13-17 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
****
Here, it gives reference to a trumpet. No reference to first last or anything else that I can see from the context. The dead in Christ is mentioned as in 1 Cor. 15:51,52. This is a strong suggestion that the two verses are talking about the same event. I have done some study of both Greek and Hebrew but it has been a very long time. Is there something the translators have left out that indicate to you that this is required to be the first trumpet? Otherwise, I don't see a requirement that this is a different trumpet within this scripture (I also don't see a requirement that you are wrong either).
****
How would you explain the group "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9) that is seen in Heaven before the 1st seal is broken.
****
Revelation 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; For You were slain, And you have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation
****
Here, it clearly mentions the breaking of the seals right within the verse you mention. There is no reference directly to these people redeemed by the first rapture, second rapture or the saints that have fallen asleep that are redeemed. Is there a requirement here that you are trying to state that this MUST be 1 of two raptures? I can't see it. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb, not by a rapture. Redeem can also refer to a gathering (as opposed to the purchase) but again, there is no requirement that I can see in this verse that establishes 2 raptures.
****
Your comments:
The "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Rev. 7:9) stand in Heaven before the throne just before the 7th seal is opened. They "came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14). To me, 2 Raptures is required, one for the wise Philadelphian virgins and one for the foolish Laodicean virgins. As you recognize, no believer will suffer God's Wrath. Therefore, the Tribulation saints need to be caught up too.
****
Again, I see your argument. I think it is a strong one and I will keep digging. The most important thing I think will be the left behind saints to read and evaluate and pray. There will be a historic document of our soon departure. If they see that when we left it was not during the tribulation, the sun didn't grow dark, the stars didn't fall from heaven and/or the "powers of heaven weren't shaken" (Matt 24:29) then they can rest in the fact that at that point they MUST conclude that there will be yet another rapture since the conditions of Matt. 24:29 were not completely fulfilled.
****
Really appreciate your thoughts and insights. I am gaining a lot from them. Even though I don't see the requirement for 2 raptures in Scripture as you do. I believe your views have a very strong possibility and would tend to agree that there could be 2. Your brother in Christ.

My reply

> > the rapture. Scripture is very clear on the fact that it will be the last trumpet

Only in I Cor. 15:51,52, which I think refers to the second Rapture. This last trump cannot be the last of the 7 trumpets judgments because that way the saints would be here when God's Wrath is poured out.

> > > For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
****
> > Here, it gives reference to a trumpet. No reference to first last or anything else that I can see from the context.

Then the trumpet in I Thess. 4:16 is probably the first. If it were not, it would need a qualifying number. You don't ever say that the first in a series is the last, do you? It must be last in comparison to something that preceded it.

> > > "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; For You were slain, And you have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation"
****
> > Here, it clearly mentions the breaking of the seals right within the verse you mention. There is no reference directly to these people redeemed by the first rapture

In Rev. 5:9, the first seal has not yet been broken. The next chapter, Rev. 6:1, starts out with, "I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals." Verse 2 says, "And when he had opened the second seal." Therefore the 24 elders and saints of Rev. 5 are in Heaven before the Tribulation starts when the 1st seal is broken.

> > Is there a requirement here that you are trying to state that this MUST be 1 of two raptures? I can't see it. We are redeemed by the blood of the lamb, not by a rapture.

Yes. I think this must be the first of two Raptures. John is one of the 12 apostles that make up half of the 24 elders. When he is caught up to Heaven in Rev. 4:1, the saints of Rev. 5:9 are also caught up. Both the elders and the saints sing the "new song" in 5:9. Of course, we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, but here we come "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" and are made "kings and priests" (5:10). The Tribulation saints that are seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:14,15 are "before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple." They are not said to be kings and priests like the 1st group to appear in Heaven.

> > I don't see the requirement for 2 raptures in Scripture as you do

Speaking of the day of the 2nd Rapture, Mt. 24:28 says, "wheresoever the carcase (lit., body, i.e., Body of Christ) is (in Heaven), there will the eagles (Tribulation saints) be gathered together." Isa. 40:31 says, "But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as EAGLES; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint."

We know from Rev. 7:14 that the Tribulation saints get to Heaven. If there were not 2 Raptures, you would not need to "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHYT TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass (the Tribulation), and TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN." (Lu. 21:36).

If there were not TWO Days of the Son of Man (i.e., 2 Raptures), Jesus would not have warned "the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see ONE of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it" (Lu. 17:22). Verse 26 says, "as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS (plural) of the Son of man." There are TWO Days of the Son of Man. The days of Noah represent the 1st Rapture. No fire fell that day. The days of Lot represent the 2nd Rapture on the Day of God's Wrath. "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Lu. 17:28,29). Agape

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In P7C 556 you say:
***Man is body, soul and spirit. The body dies. If we die bodily in our sins without a Saviour, our soul will also die. Then our spirit will live on in hell.

Where does it say in the scriptures that the soul will die and the spirit will live in hell? The spirit of him who dies in sin, without a savior, is dead, period, so how can it live on in hell? God Bless you.

My reply

Eze. 18:20 says, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," but please find me a scripture that says a spirit dies. What does Mk. 9:43-48 mean? Is "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" merely the chorus of a song? It says, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Job 25:6 says, "How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" Isa. 66:24 says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

The body, soul and spirit of believers have eternal life. The body of believers can die, but will be resurrected. The body and soul of unbelievers can die, but in Mt. 25:46, what is going into everlasting punishment? It says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

The death of the body is the first death, the death of the soul the second death. Rev. 21:8 says, "the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Where is the mention of a third death? Agape

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Re: a taste of things to come
http://www.rense.com. New Clues About Earth's 'Great Dying' 251 Million Years Ago, By Becky Ham
http://www.msnbc.com:80/news/432102.asp?cp1=1

My reply

Thanks for news of the interesting article, Re: the "P-T extinction at the site of Meishan in southern China, where a series of rock layers spans the boundary between the two periods."

"Within these layers, the species extinction rate skyrocketed to 94 percent, up from a steady 33 percent in the rock layers below the P-T boundary. This dramatic increase in the extinction rate happened suddenly, occurring in less than 500,000 years.

"According to Jin' these numbers convinced the researchers that they were looking at a single and sudden mass extinction event at Meishan' rather than several smaller extinctions clustered around the P-T boundary...."

"One intriguing clue is scattered throughout the Meishan layers-superheated debris particles called microspherules. In southern China, the Science researchers report, P-T boundary rock layers contain 100 to 1,000 times more of these tiny metallic and glassy spheres than other rock layers. This discovery mirrors similar finds in the rock layers that mark the later extinction of the dinosaurs.

"Do the P-T microspherules come from a cosmic impact like the one that ended the dinosaurs, days on Earth?..."

My guess is that they do, just as they do at the KT boundary and on the Moon.

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I have just read Pro and Con 555. The writer was questioning the 2 raptures. I think you are correct, there will be two raptures. The first rapture will be when ALL the believers, except the 144,000, will be caught up in the clouds to be with the Lord. The 144,000 will be sealed and will witness to the Jews, and anyone else who will listen, during the tribulation period. Then they will be redeemed from the earth, (raptured), after the sounding of the seventh trumpet, as per Revelation 14.

However, I do not agree with your following statement:

***What scripture says no church saints are left behind to be part of the Trib saints? To me, the parable of the 10 virgins and the message to the Laodiceans is clear. The foolish virgins are left behind. The lukewarm Laodiceans are speued out of his mouth. They are left behind for chastisement (Rev. 3:19).

In rebuttal, there are no scriptures that state any believers, except the 144,000, will be left on earth at the rapture and the parable of the 10 virgins does not mean that any believers will be left behind. Bear in mind, there are two classes of 'spiritual' virgins. The Church and Israel.

The 5 wise virgins, who have oil for their lamps, refers to the Church. All 'believers' have been 'baptized in the spirit', they have the Spirit of God, the oil, in them and are awaiting the second advent of the 'bridegroom', the Messiah. The 5 foolish virgins are the nation Israel, they, like the Church, are looking for the first advent of the 'bridegroom', the Messiah, but they are not baptized in the spirit so they have no oil in their lamps. It is not a case of them being 'lukewarm', Marilyn, so the message to the Laodiceans has nothing to do with them. There will be NO, repeat NO, believers, except the 144,000, left on earth after the rapture.

You also say:
***That is for sure, but we can't rearrange things the Bible indicates for our own reasons, no matter how worthy.

I respectfully request, madam, that you apply the above to your treatment of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Your insistence on equating the 2300 days to the shortening of the days has led you to violate the above statement. It has forced you to 'rearrange' most of the Revelation of Jesus Christ and that, your reason for doing so, is not worthy.

For your information, although you have not chosen to consider it, the days that will be shortened are the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:12. During the last 45 of those days the vial judgments will be poured out. They are so severe that if those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved and I think you must admit Daniel 12:12 will apply: "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." Those who do so will have been protected throughout the whole of the tribulation, including the vial judgments, and will, thanks be to the Lord, enter the millennium in their natural state. God Bless you.

P.S. I agree with the person you were replying to that the opening of the seals encompasses both the sounding of the trumpets and the pouring out of the vials. Praise the Lord!

My reply

> > there are no scriptures that state any believers, except the 144,000, will be left on earth at the rapture...
> > The first rapture will be when ALL the believers, except the 144,000, will be caught up in the clouds to be with the Lord...
> > The 5 foolish virgins are the nation Israel, they, like the Church, are looking for the first advent of the 'bridegroom', the Messiah, but they are not baptized in the spirit so they have no oil in their lamps. It is not a case of them being 'lukewarm', Marilyn, so the message to the Laodiceans has nothing to do with them. There will be NO, repeat NO, believers, except the 144,000, left on earth after the rapture.

Hammering it in doesn't make it true. First, there is only one Body of Christ. I Cor. 12:13 says, "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into ONE BODY, WHETHER WE BE JEWS OR GENTILES, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Eph. 2:14-16 says, "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby." Eph. 4:4 says, "There is ONE BODY, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling." Rom. 12:5 says, "So we, being many, are ONE BODY in Christ, and every one members one of another."

Second, the 10 virgins of Mt. 25:1-13 all have had their past sins forgiven. They are all virgins. They all call the bridegroom "Lord." They all "went forth to meet the Lord. When they heard the cry, "ALL those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps." Their lamps were burning. They had some oil of the Holy Spirit. The KJV translation in v. 8 is misleading. It says of the foolish, "our lamps are gone out." The literal Concordant Version has it right: "our torches are GOING OUT. " They don't have to be relit (i.e., resealed as believers). They just need extra "oil in their vessels (i.e., Holy Spirit in their bodies of clay) WITH their lamps."

Third, Jesus is talking to believers in all 7 messages in Rev. 2 and 3. In 3:14, Jesus addresses the message to the Laodiceans to "the CHURCH of the Laodiceans." All the Laodicean church are believers. They are IN CHRIST. They would have to be in the Body of Christ to be told, "because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue (emesai, vomit) thee out of my mouth...As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent" (3:16,19). This message is also addressed to the entire Body of Christ, the Church. Verse 22 says, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES." We can see that they are cut off in Lu. 12:46. It says, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit. cut him off), and will appoint him his portion WITH THE UNBELIEVERS" (i.e., the shortened Tribulation). Mt. 24:51 adds, "And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (pretenders): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Because there are some foolish believers, in Lu. 21:36, Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

> > Your insistence on equating the 2300 days to the shortening of the days...For your information, although you have not chosen to consider it, the days that will be shortened are the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:12. During the last 45 of those days the vial judgments will be poured out.

The 1335 days only appear in one verse. Dan. 12:11-13 says, "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy LOT at the END of the days." The 1335 days start at Mid-Trib, "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away," to past the end of Armageddon, to "the END of the days," the full 1335 days. On the 1335th day, Daniel will "stand in thy LOT" as Israel is divided among the tribes again by lot. Eze. 48:29 says, "This is the land which ye shall DIVIDE BY LOT UNTO THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD."

By this time, the Millennium has begun. The Day of God's Wrath is past. The trumpet judgments are past. The vials have been poured out. Christ has returned. The Judgment of the Nations has taken place. Dominion has been taken from Satan. Armageddon has taken place. Satan has been chained. The days of mourning have ended. The Israelites have been resurrected and certain ones put back on the Earth, and Israel is again divided among the tribes by lot. Daniel will stand in his portion of land at the end of the 1335 days.

> > Your insistence on equating the 2300 days to the shortening of the days

Here are my reasons. Mt. 24: 15,16,21,22 says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then (Mid-Trib) let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains...For then (from Mid-Trib to the end of the Great Tribulation) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days (the 1260 days from Mid-Trib to the end of the 70th week of Daniel) should be SHORTENED, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be SHORTENED." Mk. 13:20 says, "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath SHORTENED the days."

No believer will be left behind at the 2nd Rapture. Therefore, the end of the SHORTENED DAYS terminates with the Rapture of the Tribulation saints. Since no believer can go through God's Wrath, the SHORTENED DAYS must end as the day comes when God's Wrath is going to be poured out on unbelievers.

Dan. 8:10-14 says, "And it (the little horn, Satan in the False Prophet) waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it (Satan) cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him (the Satan possessed False Prophet) the daily sacrifice was taken away (Mid Trib), and the place of the sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, HOW LONG shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (the first 1260 days of the Tribulation, when the Jews can sacrifice), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib, when the False Prophet desecrates the temple), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Therefore, from the beginning of the Tribulation to the Day of God's Wrath total 2300 evenings and mornings. Verse 26 says, "the vision of the evening and the morning (one day, Gen. 1:5) which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days" (till the Tribulation).

The 1st half of the Tribulation/70th week of Daniel is 1260 days. Rev. 11:3 says, "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth." The 2nd half of the Tribulation, before shortening, is 1260 days (Rev. 12:6,14). There are "elect" on Earth during the latter 1260 days. Rev. 12:17 says, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and HAVE the testimony of Jesus Christ." Therefore the 2nd half of the 70th week of Daniel, the "great tribulation" of Mt. 24:21, are the days to be shortened for the remnant of Israel that is among the elect.

Rom. 9:27,28 says, "concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a REMNANT shall be saved: For he will FINISH the work, and CUT IT SHORT in righteousness: because a SHORT work will the Lord make upon the earth." The shortened time runs from the time Satan is cast down to Earth and enters into the False Prophet Mid-Trib. Rev. 12:12 says, "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT time." These days are to be shortened. Rev. 17:10 says, "And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Babel, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, Rome), and one is (the Beast), and the other (the False Prophet) is not yet come; and when he cometh, he (the False Prophet) must continue a SHORT SPACE." The days that the False Prophet is in office are the SHORTENED DAYS.

Therefore, the first half of the Tribulation is 1260 days. Moses and Elijah are killed after they prophesy during those 1260 days. The latter half, 1260 days, the Great Tribulation, are shortened to 1040 days (2300 - 1260 = 1040). God's Wrath falls on the 2300th day.

The Day of God's Wrath is Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. Seven months go by before the Lord returns the following Nisan 1, first day of the Jewish Regnal and Sacred Year (Eze. 29:17,21; Hos. 6:3). Eze. 39:12,13 says, "And SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (Second Advent, Christ's return in glory), saith the Lord GOD." Therefore, the Jewish Civil Year that begins that Tishri 1 is a Leap Year. The 13th month, Adar II, is added between Tishri 1 and Nisan 1. The year 5768 is a Leap Year. It's 1st day is Tishri 1, 5768, our Sept. 13, 2007, 40 years plus another 120 days since Israel took the rest of Jerusalem in the Six-Day War on Iyar 28 (June 7, 1967). This echoes the 40 years plus another 120 days from when Jesus came to Bethany the day before Palm Sunday to the burning of the temple in 70 AD.

I think the Second Advent is on Nisan 1, 5768 (Apr. 6, 2008, anniversary of the Crucifixion on our calendar). The full 1260 days of the last half of the 70th week of Daniel are up Nisan 15, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I expect the Judgment of the Nations next in the order of events. Dominion will be taken away from Satan, and Armageddon will break out. After it is over and Satan chained, the 1335th day from Mid-Trib will be the day Daniel stands in his own plot of land in Israel. Agape

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Re: Heaven Found
I have been reading your very interesting book- Heaven Found- I wondered about your Rapture date of May 1998. Do you have any idea about that? Your work is most interesting to me as it certainly could be used to open many understand the Lords restoration of His people. Thanks in advance for your responding to me.

My reply

1998 was so definitely marked that I assumed it was the Rapture. It was the 480th year of the Modern Parallels,
http://www.pe.net/~mjagee/parallels.html
I think it was the 6000th year since Adam was cast out of Eden. Instead of the Rapture, 1998 seems to have been the beginning of the four years of the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. This may be the "space to repent" mentioned in Jesus' message to Thyatira (Rev. 2:21). The way things are lining up for the Tribulation, the Lord's coming for the Bride of Christ must be very near. Get ready (i.e., use 1:Jn.1:9). Agape

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