Could you elaborate when you have the time, about people being anywhere but in the earth until the Second coming of the Lord when those that are asleep will be raised up?? Some denominations teach that everyone is in the earth, (or sea or air wherever, however they died,) until the Lords Second coming (specifically SDA's). Here, all along I thought my loved ones that died knowing the Lord were with Him now, and those that didn't know the Lord, were lost and somewhere else (Hades) until the Judgement Day?? 2 Co 5:8 says "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."emphasis added.KJV. And what about both CNN, and the newspapers using the Term "Stumbling Block" about Jerusalem?! Look Up!!! Love, your Brother in Christ
Early that same day, Jesus could not be touched. Jn. 20:17 says, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ASCEND unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." He took the contents of Paradise to Heaven, returned, and then could be touched. In Lu. 24:39, Jesus said, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." From that day to this, the norm for believers is absent from the body, present with the Lord. Unbelievers still go to the same place in the Earth that they did in Lu. 16:19-31.
Psa. 68:18 says. "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men." Eph. 4:8-10 says, " When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"
Jerusalem really is a stumbling block. We are living to see that one fulfilled. Agape
I Cor. 15:41-44 says, "one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; IT IS RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." Therefore, the dead in Christ who are participants of both Raptures are "raised in incorruption." Then, it seems that at Rapture 2, all believers called to the general assembly from both Heaven and Earth (Mk. 13:27) will be changed and made immortal.
The mystery. I Jn. 3:2 says, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we SHALL BE: but we know that, WHEN he shall appear (the Sign of the Son of Man, Mt. 24:30; Rev. 6:14f, is on the day of the 'last trump'), we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." Agape
As to the Spirit not dying, you appear to be equating the word 'worm' to the 'spirit'. I had thought 'worm' was referring to the soul. I could be wrong. However, if you apply it to soul, you are implying that Adam's 'soul' died and not his 'spirit' when he disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden? Or do you mean that no part of him died, then, or that his body was made subject to death. However, he had not eaten of the tree of eternal life so his body was already subject to decay and death. You will excuse me if I appear confused.
As you know, Jesus told Nicodemus he must be 'born again'. I have always understood that to mean 'born again' in the spirit, and it follows, if the spirit of man must be 'born again', his 'spirit' must be dead, to start with. If it is not the 'spirit' of man that must be born again, pray tell me, what do you think Jesus meant? That the soul of man is dead and must be 'born again'? It can't be the body, as long as the man is breathing, and I don't know of anything else that must needs be 'born again'. Do you?
Another confusion, for me. You say: "The body, soul and spirit of believers have eternal life." But then you say: "The body of believers can die,." If it can die then it is not eternal. It can be resurrected, yes, but the present 'body' of man is a corruptible body and will pass away, it is not eternal, until after he is 'born again' and is resurrected, or raptured, and given an incorruptible body, which will be eternal.
You then ask: "The body and soul of unbelievers can die, but in Mt. 25:46,what is going into everlasting punishment?" I would seem to me the only thing left is the 'spirit' but, as I understand it, the 'spirit' of unbelievers is already dead so there is nothing left to go into everlasting punishment. Interesting!
Finally you ask: "Where is the mention of a third death?" I don't think there is one. Do you? God Bless you
> > the soul that sinneth, it shall die. However, when I look at the many other meanings of the word that is, here, translated 'soul' it raises question marks
That the soul can die is sure. James 5:20 says, "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall SAVE A SOUL FROM DEATH, and shall hide a multitude of sins." Mk. 8:36 says, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and LOSE HIS OWN SOUL?" Mt. 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell."
> > As to the Spirit not dying, you appear to be equating the word 'worm' to the 'spirit'. I had thought 'worm' was referring to the soul.
Man is body, soul and spirit. I Thess. 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." If the body can die, and the soul can die, what is left that can't die? the spirit of man.
> > Adam's 'soul' died and not his 'spirit' when he disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden? Or do you mean that no part of him died, then, or that his body was made subject to death. However, he had not eaten of the tree of eternal life so his body was already subject to decay and death
Adam had not yet gained eternal life. His soul had not died. That 2nd death happens to all unbelievers at the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium. I can't tell you what was marred in Adam, but something was. His descendants have a propensity to sin, and this tendency is passed down to each of us by our fathers. That is why Jesus was born of a virgin, to avoid having a sin nature.
> > Jesus told Nicodemus he must be 'born again'. I have always understood that to mean 'born again' in the spirit, and it follows, if the spirit of man must be 'born again', his 'spirit' must be dead, to start with. If it is not the 'spirit' of man that must be born again, pray tell me, what do you think Jesus meant?
When we are born again, we are born into God's family, and something new is created in us. It is a mystery I'd like to know more about myself. Lu. 5:36-38 says, "he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved."
There is a "spirit of man." I Cor. 2:11 says, "what man knoweth the things of a man, save the SPIRIT OF MAN which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." Zech. 12:1 says, "The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the SPIRIT OF MAN within him." It may be that at the new birth, Christ gives us a new wine skin to hold his Holy Spirit.
> > You say: "The body, soul and spirit of believers have eternal life." But then you say: "The body of believers can die
Only temporarily. As you know, it will be resurrected.
> > You then ask: "The body and soul of unbelievers can die, but in Mt. 25:46,what is going into everlasting punishment?" I would seem to me the only thing left is the 'spirit' but, as I understand it, the 'spirit' of unbelievers is already dead so there is nothing left to go into everlasting punishment.
It seems to me that it is the original "spirit of man." Eph. 4:24 says, "And that ye put on THE NEW MAN, which after God is CREATED in righteousness and true holiness." The "new man" may be the new wine skin. Col. 3:9,10 says, " Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on THE NEW MAN, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that CREATED him."
Maybe some of the readers will have a better understanding of this mystery than I have. If so, I hope they will let us know. Agape
***I am not compressing all the events of Rev. into 2300 days. Rev. covers from when the 1st Rapture is nigh to the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium. The 2300 days run from the beginning of the Tribulation/70th week of Daniel to the Day of God's Wrath on the 1st day of the Millennium. The 2520 days are shortened by 220 days for the elect's sake (Mt. 24:22). The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the 2300th day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. We rule with Him for that 1000 years. The 2300 days do not include the Second Advent, the Judgment of the Nations, Armageddon, or Daniel standing in his lot at the end of the 1335 days, counted from the desecration of the temple Mid-Trib.
***Here is the list of events:
Sivan 6, Feast of Weeks, beginning of Trib/70th week of Daniel,
Beast rules 1260-day first half of Trib (Rev. 13:5)
Israel sacrifices, 2 witnesses prophesy the same 1260 days (Rev. 11:3)
2nd half of Trib, the Great Tribulation
temple desecrated, no sacrificing = 1040 days (Dan 8:14)
Tishri 1 = 1040th day = 2300th day of Trib, 1st day of
1000-yr Day of the Lord, Feast of Trumpets Coronation
of Christ, Pre-Wrath Rapture, Marriage of the Lamb
Judgment Seat of Christ, Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
At Judgment Seat of Christ, believers receive rewards in Heaven
unbelievers on Earth get 7 trumpet judgments and
the vials of wrath are poured out
7 months, Israel buries dead (Eze. 39:12) vials of God's wrath
being fulfilled, 1st 5 mo., men don't die
Nisan 1 in a Jewish Leap Year, end of 7 months in a Jewish Leap Year
Christ's return (Eze. 29:17,21)
Millennial government on Earth starts Nisan 15, end of the 70th
week of Daniel, on the 2520th day, Judgment of the
Nations, dominion taken from Satan, Armageddon begins
Satan chained at its end. Millennial peace begins then.
Israel mourns for the dead 30 days (Dan. 12:11; Nu. 20:29; De. 34:8)
Daniel stands in his lot at the end of the 1335th day from Mid-Trib (Dan. 12:12) (1260 + 75 = 1335)
***As Solomon, son of David, purged his kingdom at the beginning, the greater Son of David will purge his kingdom at its beginning. Then peace will last the rest of the Millennium.
You are right, dear lady, repetition does not prove something is true. You are quite right, of course, there is only one Church that is made up of both Jews and Gentiles but there is also one Israel, made up of Jews, only, and they are still God's people. It is possible, therefore, to equate the foolish virgins to Israel and the wise virgins to the Church. Try it, it makes more sense than what you are preaching.
***The promises to Israel will come true to Israel. However, the foolish virgins can't be Israel, because they go out to meet Christ and call him Lord. The unbelieving Jews would never do that, and the Messianic Jews are part of the Church. Speaking of the Church, II Cor. 11:2 says, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
As to 'believers' being left behind at the rapture. The message to the Laodiceans does not prove your point because, since it is a lukewarm church, not all the members are 'believers' otherwise it would not be luke warm.
***The unbelievers are not members of "the church of the Laodiceans." They are not in Christ. Therefore, they can't be spued (emesai, vomited) out of his mouth. They aren't in the Body of Christ in the first place.
Many of those who are left behind, I fear, will be people who profess to be 'believers' but are not and they will, indeed, be chastened during the Tribulation. I think the 144,000 will be 'believers' who will be left behind but, in accordance with the promises given to all 'believers', they will be protected from the wrath to come. That is why they are 'sealed' and why they are redeemed, raptured, at the time of the seventh trumpet.
***The 144,000 can't be raptured at the time of the 7th trumpet judgment, because no believer is left on Earth at the first of the 7 trumpets, let alone the last. The Tribulation saints are in Heaven in Rev. 7:14 before the 1st trumpet sounds in Rev. 8. No believer is on the receiving end of God's Wrath. While the wrath is hitting Earth, all believers, "small and great" are in Heaven receiving their rewards (Rev. 11:18). Rom. 5:9 says, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH through him." Col. 3:16 says, "the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience." I Thess. 1:10 tells us "to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME." I Thess. 5:9 says, "GOD HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
At the end of the 7 years, not 2300 days after the start of the 7 years! Only then will the angel go out to preach the gospel to the whole world. I can be admant, too. Praise the Lord! As to the 'spirit' vs the 'soul'. I think the 'spirit of man' is analgous to the 'Spirit of God' and I am not about to accept that the 'Spirit of God' is related to a 'worm', in any way. I don't think you should either. You are indeed a good 'soul', and by that I mean 'person'. How about that!
***Isa. 66:24 says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." Those are not saved people. They have not the Spirit of God. Yet they have "their worm." Man is body, soul and spirit. The body is self conscious. The soul is world-around-him conscious. The spirit is God conscious. If man was born without the spirit of man, he would be no different than an animal. Animals have body and soul. Only man also has the spirit of man that can know God. Heb. 4:12 says, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of SOUL and SPIRIT." I Thess. 5:23 says, " I pray God your WHOLE SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (i.e., the soul and spirit not divided asunder, not cut apart). There is a spirit of man and another Spirit of God. They are not the same thing. The spirit of man seems to be this "worm." There is no way the Spirit of God is this "worm." Agape, Marilyn
God Bless you.
***From Marilyn: As I see it, only the 1260 days of Rev. 12:6,14 are shortened for the ELECT'S sake, Mt. 24:22). Rev. 12:12 says, "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that HE HATH BUT A SHORT TIME." This is the period that is SHORT. The 2nd 1260 days are shortened to 1040 (2300 - the 1st 1260 days = 1040).
***The time that the Jews can sacrifice (the 1st 1260 days), plus the time when they can't (1040 days) because the temple has been desecrated = 2300 days. Dan. 8:13,14 says, "How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice (the 1260 days when they do sacrifice), and the transgression of desolation (Mid-Trib), to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot (the following 1040 days)? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed."
***On that 2300th day, Israel is to be attacked by the united nations' army under Gog (Eze. 38). When the 2nd trumpet judgment hits, the "great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea" (the Great Sea, the Mediterranean, Zeph. 2:4,5). It may be that water will literally be dashed over the sanctuary. Jer. 47:2 says, "Thus saith the LORD; Behold, WATERS rise up out of the north, and shall be an OVERFLOWING FLOOD, and shall overflow the land, and all that is therein; the city (Jerusalem), and them that dwell therein: then the men shall cry, and all the inhabitants of the land shall howl." The Earth will be turned upside down that day. Isa. 24:1 says, "Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and TURNETH IT UPSIDE DOWN, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof." It could be that the waters of the Black Sea, NORTH of Israel, will overflow Israel as well as water from the asteroid impact in the Mediterranean Sea. When it is over, there will be many bodies to be buried to cleanse the land of Israel so Christ's 2nd Advent will be glorious.
***The 2300 days applies to the elect, not the unbeliever. I think the elect are raptured on the 2300th day before the Wrath of God is poured out. I think the full 2520 days, the 70th week of Daniel, will apply to UNBELIEVERS. Besides this, we have the 1290 and 1335 days of Dan. 12:11-13. It says, "from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up (Mid-Trib), there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. I think the extra 30 days here are for mourning the dead. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way (i.e., Daniel) till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy LOT at the end of the days." Neither the 1290 nor the 1335 days are said to be shortened. Your shortening the 1335 days does not agree with Scripture. The "short time" of Rev. 12 is with reference to the latter 1260 days.
(I see I will have to be more precise in my use of words.) However, you are shortening them the 1,335 days by 295 days and your email does not answer my question.
***I am not shortening the 1335 days at all. They run from Mid-Trib for the full 1335 days. What question?
I realize you know the Bible much more thoroughly and request that you allow for my ignorance of it but you now have me completely confused, first you say:
>>The Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place on the 2300th day, the 1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord. We rule with Him for that 1000 years.>>
Then you say:
>>Millennial government on Earth starts Nisan 15, end of the 70th week of Daniel, on the 2520th day, Judgment of the Nations, dominion taken from Satan, Armageddon begins, Satan chained at its end. Millennial peace begins then.>>
***On the 2300th day, in Heaven, Christ receives his crown and his kingdom. We will rule with him 1000 years from that day.
These say the millennial Day of the Lord starts on the 2300th day but the millennial government on earth does not begin until the 2520th day, 220 days later.
***Christ purges his kingdom first, starting with the Day of God's Wrath, the first day of the 1000-year Day of the Lord. He does not return to Earth for 7 months after that.
***The Day of God's Wrath is the day of the "trumpet" and of "THICK DARKNESS" (Joel 2:1-3). It cannot be the day of the Second Advent. Zech. 14:5-7 says, "the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall NOT be clear, NOR DARK: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."
That does not make make sense to me but it must to you. Tell me, please, what happens during the 220 days?
***Eze. 39:12,13 says that after the Day of God's Wrath (Eze. 38:18-20), "SEVEN MONTHS shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified (the Second Advent), saith the Lord GOD.
***Rev. 9:5 says, "they should be tormented five months." This is the 1st 5 of the 7 months. "And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it" (Rev. 9:6).
***Christ returns on the following Nisan 1. Eze. 29:17 sets the day and month, "in the first month, in the first day of the month." Then v. 21 says, "In that day (Nisan 1) will I cause the horn (king) of the house of Israel (Christ) to bud forth, and I will give thee the opening of the mouth (the Word, the Logos) in the midst of them; and they shall know that I am the LORD."
***Hos. 6:3 also reveals the day of the 2nd Advent. It says, "Then shall we KNOW, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, as the LATTER and FORMER RAIN unto the earth." The former rain starts on Tishri 1 and represents the 1st Advent. The latter rain starts Nisan 1 and represents the 2nd Advent. We know that the former and latter rains start on the first day of the month. Joel 2:23 says, "Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month." In the Bible, when the month is given and not a day number, it means the 1st day of the month. This is because "chodesh" means both month and new moon, which is the first day of the month.
This also says 'Armegeddon begins' on the 2520th day and Satan is chained at its end. How long does Armegeddon last. I think it will be over in the 'twinkling of an eye'. Further, when is Satan chained?
***I think Armageddon will last 40 days and 40 nights, then Satan will be chained, but it could be different. All that is certain is that Armageddon will begin when dominion is taken from Satan at the end of the 70th week of Daniel. Dan. 9:27 says, "And he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (2520 days): and in the midst of the week (Mid-Trib) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (he desecrates the temple), and for the overspreading of abominations (idols) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the end of the 2520 days), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate (lit., desolator)." Armageddon breaks out at the end of the 2520 days of the 70th week of Daniel. The Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire, and Satan will be chained at the end of Armageddon. Verse 26 says, "the end thereof shall be with a flood (i.e., 40 days and 40 nights, as in Gen. 7), and unto the end of the war (Armageddon) desolations are determined."
***Therefore, true millennial peace does not start until that day. We rule with Him the full 1000 years, however, starting on the 2300th day of the Tribulation, which is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. We are in Heaven during the first 7 months of the Millennium, though.
You then say:
>>Daniel stands in his lot at the end of the 1335th day from Mid-Trib (Dan. 12:12)>>
a) Why do you think it is necessary for Daniel to wait the additional 75 days (1,335-1,260)+75; b) what happens during those 75 days; c) who are those who wait and come to the 1,335 days and, d) in what way are they blessed?
***Daniel has to wait until Armageddon is over, Satan chained, and then until Israel is again divided to the 12 tribes by lot. Daniel and other OT Israelites are put back on Earth to share the Millennium with the Jewish remnant that is saved in a day (the 2300th day) (Isa. 66:8).
Incidentally, I would appreciate it if you would leave out the dates you think some of these things will actually happen. You know as well as I they are assumptions and including them only blurs the picture. Thank you.
***I consider Tishri 1 for the Day of God's Wrath and Nisan 1 for the Second Advent proved by Scripture. I gave you Nisan 1 above. Here is some proof that the Day of God's Wrath is on Tishri 1, the Feast of Trumpets. There is more. Mal. 2:3 says, "your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it." Joel 2:1-3 mentions the trumpet. That reveals which Feast is the Day of God's Wrath. It makes sense that the 7 trumpet judgments would be poured out on the Feast of Trumpets. Agape
God bless you.
Pro and Con 561 Or Return
Contact me for more information at: firstname.lastname@example.org
8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110
© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee