Pro and Con 562

Posted 7-29-00

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Re: Question concerning the difference between "being raised incorruptible" & "putting on immortality"
Thank you for your response concerning the difference between being raised incorruptible and putting on immortality. Your response was a good one and I can't say I totally disagree . . . but, let me share some of my thoughts. Does the AND in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 have to refer to two specific actions. Why can't being raised incorruptible and putting on immortality refer to two characteristics of being raised from the dead, not two separate acts of God accomplished only at the last rapture at the last trumpet? Because 1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not mention the words "putting on immortality" does not necessarily preclude that that happened at the rapture of the Bride as well. I say this for several reasons. You said, "Incorruption indicates that we will not sin." I believe it indicates more than that . . . not just that we will not sin BUT the term incorruptible means WE CAN NOT SIN. If we can not sin we have to be immortal because sin is the cause of mortality. If Adam and Eve would have never sinned, they would have lived forever. If Jesus hadn't taken on the sins of the world on the cross, He would have lived forever and we would have died forever (because of our sins). The angels are immortal but evidently they are not incorruptible. This characteristic of being incorruptible, body, soul and spirit, makes our immortality unique. Yes, we will live forever, but in an incorruptible state. Could this be what is referred to in Isaiah 41:23 where is says "Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods (little "g")?"

I understand what you are saying (and you may be right) but I don't understand why Jesus would be honeymooning for almost seven years with a Bride that is not immortal. It still seems that it is impossible to have a resurrected "incorruptible" (INCAPABLE OF SINNING) body and not have also put on immortality. Maybe it's a mystery that we will not totally understand until the rapture. I just thought I'd give you my thoughts because I know you, like me, want to explore every nook and crany of truth in the Word of God. Your brother in Jesus

My reply

I sure wouldn't want to be dogmatic about this. I'd like to know more about it too.

> > Does the AND in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 have to refer to two specific actions

No, but these verses sound like they are two different things. Notice that in I Cor. 15:42, it doesn't say the body is raised in immortality (see below). And remember that I Tim. 6:15,16 (KJV) says, "the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; WHO ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see." The Literal Concordant Version says, "He is King of kings and Lord of lords, WHO ALONE HAS IMMORTALITY, making His home in light inaccessible." To me, the chances look good for the entire Body of Christ to receive immortality in actuality at "the general assembly" in Heaven on the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ. Heb. 12:23 says, "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men MADE PERFECT."

I Cor. 15:42,50,53,54 says, "the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION....Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....For this corruptible must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality....So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, AND this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

> > If we can not sin we have to be immortal because sin is the cause of mortality

It still could be a two-stage thing, raised in incorruption, then made immortal. The Body of Christ may need to be complete first. When we are raised in incorruption, we won't die, but we might be capable of dying until Christ makes the whole Body of Christ immortal.

> > If Adam and Eve would have never sinned, they would have lived forever.

Maybe if they had eaten of the Tree of Life, but they didn't. I don't think they had immortality and then had it taken away from them. How could that happen if they already had it? I think they didn't have it, but had the chance to get it.

> > The angels are immortal but evidently they are not incorruptible.

Then immortality and incorruption are two different things.

> > I don't understand why Jesus would be honeymooning for almost seven years with a Bride that is not immortal.

I don't think the Marriage of the Lamb takes place until Christ receives his golden crown and his kingdom on the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. Job 5:24 says, "And thou shalt know that thy tabernacle shall be in peace; and thou shalt VISIT THY HABITATION, AND SHALT NOT SIN." It doesn't mention being immortal there, but being raised in incorruption fits.

You bet I want to explore every nook and crany of truth in the Word of God, and there are plenty of them. We are supposed to hunt as a miner hunts the vein of silver. Prov. 2:3-5 says, "Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God." Agape

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WASHINGTON -- "Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan strongly defended the process of globalization on Tuesday, warning that efforts to halt the growing economic connections between nations would disrupt the effort to spread prosperity worldwide.

"The bottom line of all the evidence we can marshall is that (globalization) has been a major force in increasing living standards in the United States and around the world," Greenspan told the House Banking Committee."
Interesting web site:

My reply

Thanks. I found this about 10 regional heads of the New World Order on that site:
"As further proof of the likelihood that Maitreya will become the world dictator beast, let me share an observation made by Bill Cooper in his book Behold a Pale Horse (p. 80): "Some want Lord Maitreya to head the New World Order. Lord Maitreya is the front runner, I believe, since witnesses say he was present on the ship at Malta with Bush, Gorbachev, and the ten regional heads of the New World Order. "Approximately 200 dignitaries from around the world attended a major conference initiated by Maitreya in London on April 21 and 22, 1990. Representatives of governments (including the USA), members of royal families, religious leaders and journalists, all of whom had met with Maitreya previously, attended the conference." Quote from "Prophecy Watch" column of Whole Wheat No. 8, Minneapolis."
Did you catch the part about Maitreya being present with the "ten regional heads of the New World Order"? Could these be the ten kings of Revelation 17?"

I clicked this link:
World government meeting in September
Major U.N. confab seeks to implement 'global decision-making'
By Jon E. Dougherty, 2000

"The United Nations is sponsoring a global government conference in the fall designed to examine "the future of the world," and to create "an organizational structure whereby the peoples of the world can participate effectively in global decision-making in the context of the United Nations system." In preparation for this unprecedented conference, "Charter 99: A Charter for Global Democracy" calls for all nations to adopt principles of "international accountability, justice, and sustainable development" under the umbrella of democratic representation -- through the United Nations.

"Called the "Millennium Assembly and Summit," the meeting is part of the U.N.'s latest initiative to implement global government...."

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my wife and I received a surprise gift from one of our Christian alabaster flask filled with very precious spikenard!

We learned several new things about spikenard; it is the "Fragrance of the Bride". "While the king is at his table, my spikenard sends forth its fragrance" Song of Solomon 1:12 What is really interesting is that "A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse...." S o S 4:12 This pure lady (The Bride) has cultivated nine (9) different fruits in this garden: pomegranates, camphire, spikenard, saffron, calamus, cinnamon, frankincense, myrrh and aloes. This reminds me of the "Fruit of the Spirit" which is found in Galatians chapter 5.

The root word for spikenard in Greek means "genuine" or "pure". Spikenard was used to anoint Jesus, the pure and spotless lamb, just days before his death and burial. Note: Jesus was anointed two(2) times with this spice (Mark 14:3 and John 12:2). Anointing today with spikenard reminds us of our need to bury our sins beneath the cross and to walk in purity and love, earnestly desiring to become the true bride of Christ without spot or blemish (see Song of Solomon 4:7)

Note that in Revelation 19, "Babylon the great" is fallen and destroyed. "And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee". These much desired fruits will now be in heaven with the bride and "the merchants of these things .....shall stand afar off .....weeping and wailing" for these lost treasures. (Rev 19: 14-16). The bride will have these treasures "at the king's table" (Song of Solomon 1:12)

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Re: PC 539
A couple of points re. Pro and Con 539. In one part you state: "Paul was caught up to the third heaven" then, in another part, you state: "We know from Rev. 13:1 that the 10 kings are crowned when the Beast comes to power as the Tribulation begins." My KJV does not substantiate either of those statements. If these are conclusions you have drawn from the context of these and related scriptures, would it not be more proper to preface such statements with the words, "I think", rather than being so adamant? You come across as a 'know it all' and it is obvious, from previous erroneous conclusions you have reached, that you do not know it all. None of us does. Praise the Lord! Please give Ed my regards...God bless you.

My reply

Re my words: "Paul was caught up to the third heaven"
John did the same thing in Jn. 13:23. When referring to himself, he said, "Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved." He did it again in Jn. 20:2: "Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the LORD out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him." He did it again in Jn. 21:7: "Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord." He did it again in Jn. 21:20: "Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?"

Paul did somewhat the same thing. He tried to be humble, not appearing puffed up as if he was some great one because this happened to him. If you read II Cor. 12:1-7 VERY CAREFULLY, you will see that Paul was the "ME" caught up to the third heaven. It says, "It is not expedient for ME doubtless TO GLORY. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I CANNOT TELL; or whether out of the body, I CANNOT TELL: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I CANNOT TELL: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet OF MYSELF I WILL NOT GLORY, but in MINE infirmities. For though I WOULD DESIRE TO GLORY, I SHALL NOT BE A FOOL; for I WILL SAY THE TRUTH: but now I FORBEAR, lest any man should think of ME above that which he seeth ME to be, or that he heareth of ME. And LEST I SHOULD BE EXALTED ABOVE MEASURE through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to ME a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet ME, LEST I SHOULD BE EXALTED ABOVE MEASURE."

Re my words: "We know from Rev. 13:1 that the 10 kings are crowned when the Beast comes to power as the Tribulation begins"

In Rev. 17:12, at the time of the Rapture, the 10 kings "have received NO kingdom AS YET." At that time, the Beast that "IS" (17:10) is still at Vatican City (17:18). He has not yet moved to Babylon on the Euphrates. "They "that ARE with him (Christ) are called, and chosen, and faithful" (17:14). The Pre-Trib Rapture has taken place, but the 10 kings have not yet been crowned. They are seen crowned as Rev. 13 opens. It says, "I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and UPON HIS HORNS TEN CROWNS, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy." This is at the BEGINNING of the first 1260 days of the Tribulation. The Beast is given power "to continue forty and two months" (Rev. 13:5)....Agape

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Re: Rosh Hashanah
I have read and recommend an excellent book, The Seven Festivals of the Messiah by Eddie Chumney. It is a good overview of how Jesus is revealed in the Festivals. Please see

There has always been a distinction between the spring festivals and the fall festivals. Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts of Passover, Unleaven bread, and First Fruits and the Holy Spirit fulfilled Pentecost. I have heard it argued that since the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, the summer months have been the time of the Gentiles. Doesn't it seem logical that if the Rapture is the next major event in prophecy, it would most likely occur on one of the fall festivals like Rosh Hashanah? The first Fall festival is Rosh Hashanah on Tishrei 1. Please read the following excerpt from the book and see if it doesn't read like a play by play of the Rapture.

"Rosh HaShanah is referred to in the Torah as Yom Teruah, the Day of the Sounding of the Shofar (or the Day of the Awakening Blast). On Yom Teruah, the Day of the Sounding of the Shofar, it is imperative for every person to hear (shema) the shofar. The mitzvah (or biblical commandment [John (Yochanan) 14:15]), of the shofar is to hear (shema) the shofar being blown, not actually blow it yourself, hence the blessing, "to hear the sound of the shofar."

Teruah means "an awakening blast." A theme associated with Rosh HaShanah is the theme "to awake." Teruah is also translated as "shout." The Book of Isaiah (Yeshayahu), chapter 12, puts the shouting in the context of the thousand-year reign of Messiah, the Athid Lavo. The Messianic era and shout is mentioned in Isaiah (Yeshayahu) 42:11; 44:23; Jeremiah (Yermiyahu) 31:7; and Zephaniah 3:14. The first coming of Yeshua is associated with a shout in Zechariah 9:9. The ultimate shout is the rapture (natzal) in First Thessalonians 4:16-17."

I know you feel the rapture could occur in association with Pentecost, but since Pentecost refers to the giving of the Law of Moses and the giving of the Holy Spirit, it doesn't say anything about the rapture of believers.

My reply

> > "Rosh HaShanah is referred to in the Torah as Yom Teruah, the Day of the Sounding of the Shofar (or the Day of the Awakening Blast).

I like this one. On Rosh HaShanah/Feast of Trumpets, there will really be THE AWAKENING BLAST. Job 4:9 says, "By the BLAST of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed." This noise will be heard around the world. Jer. 25:31 says, "A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD." Jer. 50:46 says, "At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations."

When the walls of Jericho fell, there was the loud shout on the 7th time around. On Tishri 1, the 2300th day of the Tribulation (Dan. 8:14), every wall will fall around the world (Eze. 38:20). It will be the worldwide earthquake. That is really the Day of the Awakening Blast. Before this judgment is poured out on unbelievers at noon, the Pre-Wrath Rapture takes place. Like Lot they are saved so as by fire. The same day that Lot came out of Sodom, the fire fell (Lu. 17:29).

Since so many things take place on that day, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord, I don't really expect the Pre-Trib Rapture on Trumpets too. Song of Sol. 2:10-14 suggests spring or summer. The rain is over and gone. The rainy season starts again Tishri 1, so if this passage in Song of Solomon applies, I don't see how it could be Tishri 1, Rosh HaShanah.

> > since Pentecost refers to the giving of the Law of Moses and the giving of the Holy Spirit, it doesn't say anything about the rapture of believers.

The Spirit of Christ came to the Church, didn't he? Agape

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I have been following your website for about three months now and have really enjoyed it. I am cautious about getting too excited about date setting; the disappointment would be hard. Having said that, I continue to enjoy watching prophecy unfold before my eyes on the news everyday. Do you think that war must break out in the Middle East, with a leader from the European Union stepping in to help resolve the situation before we can be raptured? I know a lot of people think that there will be a new peace agreement before the September expiration of the old one, but what about the war that is to take place that the future AC will help resolve. Thank you for any clarification you can give me on this.

My reply

Watching is different today than before Israel was back in the land. We are seeing how the prophesied end-time events are coming true right down the line. However, since Israel fulfilled the fig tree parable of Mt. 24:32-34 when she grew leaves (Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, Sinai, West Bank) in the Six-Day War of 1967, I can't think of any prophecies now that HAVE to be fulfilled before the Rapture takes place. Where does the Bible say that there will be a war before the Rapture that the AC will help resolve?

I once thought that the EEC would probably produce the 10 kings. I don't now. As we watch, the Lord goes right about his business of bringing the prophecies to pass. We can see a little clearer as time passes. Now that the world has been divided into 10 regions that will each have its own leader under the sovereignty of first the Beast of Rev. 13:2-10, then the False Prophet of Rev. 13:11-18, it looks like both the Beast and False Prophet will rule over both the One World Government (OWG) and the United Religion (UR), whose charter was signed June 26, 2000.

That agrees with Rev. 13. Verses 7 and 8 say of the Beast out of the sea (nations, Rev. 17:15), "power was given him over ALL kindreds, and tongues, and NATIONS. And ALL THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH SHALL WORSHIP HIM, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The Beast rules during the first half of the 7-year Tribulation, the 42 months (or 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years) of Rev. 13:5.

Rev. 13:11,12 says of the False Prophet, "I beheld ANOTHER beast coming up out of the earth (Satan, Rev. 17:8); and he had two horns (two comings in a man, in Judas Iscariot and in the False Prophet) like a lamb (as Christ has two comings to Earth in a the body of Jesus), and he (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) spake as a dragon (Satan). And he exerciseth ALL the power of the first beast before him." The False Prophet rules during the last half of the Tribulation, called the Great Tribulation. Agape

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Re: Rapture....when?
I don't know if you remember me or not, but I hope you at least read this. I don't care if it ends up on your site or not, as I just hope you read it.

You will never know the rapture. Ever. I'm sorry but it is just not happening. The bible says that you will not know it. No matter how far you want to walk around this scripture it will still be there. It will always stare at you as type more and more dates on your "sites2go" web site.

Now, I also believe the rapture is fast approaching, but I will never try to figure out the date. I cannot know it. God has told me so. To try and find out when the rapture will occur, is to try and disprove God.

I am not catholic as you like to believe most of your critics are. I do not hold their traditional bound beliefs. I believe what the bible tells me. I do not care for "double rainbows" or white doves flying in pairs. I do not look to the stars to try and find clues on the lord's ways. He gave me his book and told me to get ready. Well, I'm ready. Being ready gives me the peace of mind not to look for signs in the stars for his arrival time. He doesn't want me to know. He doesn't want you to know, and you never will. I'm sorry. Blakhlsn7

Post. Scriptum. Why is it called Pro and Con? Its only filled with Pro. This is a Con and it wont show up there. That's okay. Though, If I could get a reply from you that would be great.

My reply

Last things first. The Pro and Cons are primarily a place where people can discuss in a civil loving manner how they interpret the scriptures. We also discuss recent developments that show how the prophecies are coming true right down the line. On various issues, some believe one way (Pro), some another way (Con), but all believers should treat other believers in agape love. If we have accepted Christ, we will all make it to Heaven even though we are wrong on something else. Different people are given insight in different areas. We all can learn from each other. I Jn. 4:11 says, "Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another."

> > your "sites2go" web site

That is not the name of my Web site, nor is anything you find there mine. I have no idea what all is there. That is an award my web site got. Is my BIBLE PROPHECY CORNER logo not big enough for you to notice it?

> > I will never try to figure out the date. I cannot know it. God has told me so.

That is ok with me. I just happen to believe Christ when he said, "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things" (Mk. 13:23). What does it hurt to keep our eyes open? Jesus scolded the Pharisees for being able to read the sky but not being able to discern the times. I am obeying his command to "Watch."

> > I am not catholic as you like to believe most of your critics are.

I have not thought that once. If they have accepted Christ as their own personal Saviour, they are Christian, and we can fellowship together. That is enough for me.

> > I do not hold their traditional bound beliefs.

They teach some things that are right and some things that are wrong. We are not God. Human beings are all imperfect by nature. We have to compare the teachings of any human being or organization with the Bible. Search and see if these things are so. Hang on to the good and discard the bad.

> > I do not care for "double rainbows" or white doves flying in pairs.

That's ok. We are not building a doctrine on such things, we just mention them in friendly email as we fellowship one with another. I know the double rainbow that Ed and I drove into the end of was so spectacular, I'll never forget it. It was raining lightly and the whole area from the ground way up into the sky was like being in a fairyland sparkling with a huge spray of short color streaks. They splashed down on the cars ahead of us. I never saw anything so gorgeous. Do we have to ask your permission to discuss any subject? You are free to go build your own web site to discuss your views.

> > I do not look to the stars to try and find clues on the lord's ways.

That's ok with me. I just believe Jesus when he said, "there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh." (Lu. 21:25,28).

> > Being ready gives me the peace of mind not to look for signs in the stars for his arrival time. He doesn't want me to know.

You are free to do whatever you want. Just allow me the freedom to do my very best to obey the Lord Jesus Christ. In Mk. 13:37, he said, "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." Agape

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Shalom to all, Please read this and pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Jerusalem Urged To Be International, 7-23-00, By ELLEN KNICKMEYER

VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope John Paul II on Sunday urged creation of a special international status for the holy sites of Jerusalem, saying in an appeal aimed at Camp David's negotiators that only world oversight can safeguard all the ancient city's religions.

John Paul, saying he was praying for peace to come out of the U.S.-sponsored talks between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, urged the power brokers "not to overlook the importance of the spiritual dimension of the city of Jerusalem."

"The Holy See continues to maintain that only a special statute, internationally guaranteed, can effectively preserve the most sacred areas of the Holy City," John Paul said, speaking from the window of his summer villa outside Rome.

John Paul, leader of the world's one billion Catholics, seized the potentially decisive opportunity of the Camp David talks to press the long-held Vatican position that Jerusalem's holy sites should be internationally governed....

Shalom, Barbara.

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I just wanted to share with you and your readers my new Rapture Truths, Prophecy News, & Hebraic Studies BBS over at
I always enjoy reading the postings and replys on your web site, and your imput. I hope that you and your readers will drop by for some fellowship and Discussion on the Rapture... Once again, thanks for a great site you have....In Christ

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Re: Earth Before Adam
Anyone serious about understanding the "Pre-Adamite Career" should read Finis Jennings Dake's book, God's Plan for Man, pages 113-132. It is an excellent read that will lay allot of the controversy to rest that I have read on your Pro & Con web pages.

Here are some of the scriptures that Dake references in the above referenced pages: Gen 1:2; Isa 14:1-14; Jer 4:23-27; Ezek 28:11-17; 2 Pet 3:5-6; Eph 1:4; Heb 4:3; 9:26

My reply

Thanks. I read through these scriptures, but didn't get any more enlightenment on the issue. Agape

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Re: History of the books of the bible?
Through your many studies, could you recommend a book or web site that would tell me when each book of the bible was written (and possibly by whom)? When I am reading, for example tonight I was reading Amos and in chapter 9 it says that Israel will be restored, never to be uprooted again. I have a hard time discerning if that refers to the present time or in the past. Love

My reply

I don't know what to recommend. I just use my Scofield Bible for such. It has an introduction to each book. Some books of the Bible start with something like this, "The vision of Obadiah," too. Ussher's dates are listed in the margin for a general idea. Scofield's headings are inserted in italics as helps.

Knowing when it was written doesn't always tell you what it means, either. It can stretch from that prophet's day to the Millennium. In Amos 9:11f, it is talking of the time after Christ returns, so that is in the millennial Day of the Lord.

The heading above Amos 9:ll says, "Part IV. Future kingdom blessing: (1)The LORD'S return and the re-establishment of the Davidic monarchy."

The heading above 9:13 says, "(2) Full kingdom blessing of restored Israel."

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