Pro and Con 565

Posted 8-4-00

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Re: man who said you can't know
The Lord tells us plainly that "we are not children of the night" so that day should not come upon us as a thief. 1 Thess. 5:4.

My reply

I Thess. 5:1-6 says, " But of the times and the seasons, brethren (believers), ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night." The Day of the Lord is the Millennium. I think it starts on the 2300th day (Dan. 8:14) of the 70th week of Daniel, the Tribulation. Sudden destruction hits Earth that day.

Continuing, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they (unbelievers) shall NOT ESCAPE. But ye, brethren (believers), are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

Even in that day, believers, the foolish virgins, will escape in the Pre-Wrath Rapture, unbelievers will not. However, those wise virgins that have enough oil of the Holy Spirit in their vessels (bodies) can escape in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Lu. 21:36 says, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be ACCOUNTED WORTHY to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Jesus warned the church. Rev. 3:3 says, "Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." If we hold fast and repent, he will not come on us as a thief, at the Pre-Wrath Rapture. Those that are accounted worthy will be caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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Re: incorruption vs. immortality
Might it be that these are both referring to overcoming physical corruption of the body (decomposition)?

If so, "we shall be raised incorruptable" would mean that the dead who were raised could no longer die. It is evident that a few will sin during the millennium, so I don't think incorruptable equals "unable to sin." What do you think?

My reply

Decomposition sure sounds like it would fit corruption. Let's see what the Greek says. I Cor. 15:52,53 says, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE (Strong's 862, aphthartos, undecaying), and we shall be CHANGED. For this CORRUPTIBLE (5349, phthartos, decayed) must put on INCORRUPTION (861, aphtharsia, immortality, incorruption, from 862, undecaying, not corruptible, immortal), and this MORTAL (2349, thnetos, liable to die) must put on IMMORTALITY (110, athanasia, deathlessness)." I Cor. 15:42 says, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in CORRUPTION (5356, phthora, decay); it is raised in INCORRUPTION (861, aphtharsia, immortality, incorruption, from 862, undecaying, not corruptible, immortal)."

I Tim. 1:17 says, "Now unto the King eternal, IMMORTAL (862, aphthartos, undecaying), invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever."

I Tim. 6:15,16 says, " Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY (110, athanasia, deathlessness), dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting"

I pity the translators that had to sort this out. Anyway, it is clear that incorruption can mean incapable of decay. Immortality can refer to deathlessness. However, if incorruptible can also mean immortal, why are they listed separately in I Cor. 15:53?

I was surprised that aphthartos, undecaying, was translated "INCORRUPTIBLE" in I Cor. 15:52 and "IMMORTAL " in I Tim. 1:17 in the KJV. I looked in the Concordant Version. It says, "Now to the King of the eons, the INCORRUPTIBLE, invisible, only, and wise God, be honor and glory for the eons of the eons!"

> > so I don't think incorruptable equals "unable to sin."

I agree. Thanks for showing me that.

I just happened to notice that "at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound" in I Cor. 15:52 in the KJV is "at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting" in the Concordant. In Rev. 1:10 (KJV), the "great voice, as of a trumpet" is Christ for he says "I am Alpha and Omega in the next verse. In Rev. 4:1, the "first voice" John heard was "as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither." This "first voice" is Christ too. So, at both Raptures, Christ "will be trumpeting" (Conc.). These 2 trumps have nothing to do with the 7 trumpet judgments sounded by angels. Wish I had remembered that when I answered another email recently, but I didn't, even though I had it underlined in red. Can't do or say what you don't think of though. Agape

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Marilyn the 3 hours in the Garden of Gethsemane were all "completed" BEFORE Jesus told the disciples "It is enough(of watching), Let us Rise and be going, Behold he who betrays me is AT HAND." This was Judas, the son of PERDITION, who was "revealed " and the END of the THIRD hour / watch. This represents the anti-christ (who is also called the "son of perdition" in II Thes ch. 2) being revealed AFTER THE Rapture, pictured by the phrase "ARISE, LET US BE GOING." As you pointed out...the time period mentioned in Exodus 19 talks of a three day period. Yet, as you stated, the verses say to be "ready against the third day". Jewish inclusive counting was evident. How are three FULL hours of watching (in the Garden of Gethsemane) reconciled with 2 Full days of sanctification (i.e. get the people ready today and tomorrow), with the expectation that ON the third day (in the morning), God would come down?? What are your thoughts on this? I feel the answer is in the understanding of the reconciling of these 2 events. Measuring from Pentecost 1998 until now, using Pentecost, as the "marker" means the "third day" has started; at Pentecost 2000. Yet, the "third hour of the watch" would not be over until Pentecost 2001. Is it possible that one measurement is regarding the "TIMES" AND THE OTHER IS REGARDING THE "SEASON ?" Remember the prophetic word in p/c #127 about how the times and the seasons:

(Thu 11 Jun 1998)

Is the answer in the phrase "the Season must be FULFILLED AND the Times COMPLETED ?" What are your thoughts on this ? God Bless.

My reply

...Mk. 14:32-43 says, "they came to a place which was named Gethsemane (meaning oil press): and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray. And he taketh with him Peter and James and John (who experienced the Rapture in Rev. 1:10; 4:1), and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: TARRY YE HERE, AND WATCH. And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt. And HE COMETH (1st time), and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou WATCH ONE HOUR? WATCH YE AND PRAY, LEST YE ENTER INTO TEMPTATION (peirasmos, trial, proof) (see Lu. 21:36; Rev. 3:10). The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words. And when HE RETURNED (2nd time), he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him. And HE COMETH THE THIRD TIME, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and TAKE YOUR REST: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. RISE UP, LET US GO (picturing the Rapture?); lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand. And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas" ( the son of perdition, type of the False Prophet, the only other son of perdition).

I wonder if this could tie in with the parable of the barren fig tree in Lu. 13:6-9. There were "three years" that he came and looked for fruit on the fig tree and found none. The only time he spoke was the 3rd time. After that, there was another year, but he didn't come or speak in that year. Israel was to be digged about and dunged that year, which could easily refer to the Peace Treaty when they give land for peace. Since 5758 (1997/98) was the 480th year in the Modern Parallels, it might be the time to count from. That would fit if he came the 1st time some time in 5758, the 2nd time in 5759, will come the 3rd time in 5760, and the Tribulation begins in 5761. That would seem to leave us only until Tishri 1, 5761 (Sept. 30, 2000) for the Rapture.

If Song of Sol. 2:10-14 applies, that span would only last until fall began Sept. 22. Within this span of time is Av 19 (Aug. 20), when the dove brought Noah the olive leaf. If the 10 days of Rev. 2:10 are meant to mark off 10 days before the Rapture, some would be put in prison on Av 9 (Aug. 10), when the temple grounds were set on fire. We don't have long to wait to see if this applies this way. We need to stay ready, just in case. Agape

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I have a question on which I would appreciate your insight. If the Jews regard the entire old testament as God's Word, then what explanation do they offer as to whom the (PIERCED) subject is in Zechariah 12:10. Surely the context suggests the speaker as the Lord since he refers to the "pierced" one as "me" implying himself.

Zechariah 12:10 says, "And (I) will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon (ME) whom they have (PIERCED), and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

John bridges the link in the new testament as he recounts the crucifixion. First, in John 19: 34 he says, "But one of the soldiers (PIERCED) his side, and forthwith came out blood and water." Then the association is made to fulfilled prophecy in verses 36-37. "For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they (PIERCED)."

Lastly, in Revelation 1:7 John says, "Behold , he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which (PIERCED) him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

Do you think Paul also spoke to this denial of the Jews when he said in Romans 11:25, "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; THAT BLINDNESS IN PART HAS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." It would appear that indeed Israel is indeed BLIND. The verse also however refers to their blindness as coming to an end. It sure looks like that time is soon coming.

Still I wonder, whom do the Jews NOW claim is the one Zechariah refers to as PIERCED? In Christ

My reply

I don't know how the Jews explain Zech. 12:10 or Psa. 22:16. Together, they include all the puncture wounds. Zech. 12:10 says, "they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son." Psa. 22:16 says, "the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." Agape

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Who is the strong angel in Revelation ch.5 vere 2. and why does the symbol for Jesus switch from lamb to lion.

My reply

I don't know who the strong angel is, but it could be Michael the Archangel. Dan. 10:13 mentions "Michael, one of the chief princes." Rev. 12:7,8 says, "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." Therefore, Michael is a strong angel.

The symbols used for Christ in Rev. 5:5,6 reveal who this really is. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, and the Lamb of God. The Lion shows that he is the King of Israel. The Root of David shows that he is YHVH of hosts. The Lamb shows that he is Jesus Christ, the redeemer, who was slain as the perfect sacrifice for sins.

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel (the Lion), AND his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts (the Lamb); I am the first (YHVH King of Israel) , and I am the last (the redeemer YHVH of hosts) ; and beside me there is no God." Isa. 41:4 says, "I the LORD (YHVH), the first, AND with the last; I am he." Isa. 42:1 says, "I (YHVH) have put my spirit upon him (Jesus Christ, the redeemer): he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." Isa. 43:10-14 says, " Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I AM HE (both the first and the last, both YHVH king of Israel and YHVH of hosts the redeemer): before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD (YHVH); and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I AM HE; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? Thus saith the LORD (YHVH), your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel."

In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning (Lord of the OT) AND the end (Lord of the NT), the first AND the last.... I am the root AND the offspring of David." II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." Now does the Lion and the Lamb make more sense? Jesus Christ is both the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the Lamb of God.

Isa. 53:5,6 says, "he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Agape

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Re: The Bride of Christ
I shall be most grateful if you will give me more information on the above subject. Thank you. Sincerely

My reply

In Rev. 21:9, we read of "the bride, the Lamb's wife." We call her the Bride of Christ. In Jn. 3:29, Christ is "the bridegroom." John the Baptist said, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom." In the parable of the 10 virgins in Mt. 25:6, Jesus said, "Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. In v. 1, "Believers are "likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."

In II Cor. 11:2, Paul said, "I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

Mt. 9:15 says, "Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast." Agape

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Re: Latest from the dear-lady man
One thing that I do not understand is how all the major prophecy teachers can not see that there are two distinct raptures and that everyone that is born again will not be a part of the Bride when Jesus comes for her in the first rapture. I recently listened to the this year's International Prophecy Conference held earlier this year in Florida. It had the who's who of prophecy teachers speaking. Of all those teachers NONE of them see that there are two raptures, one for the bride and one for the tribulation saints. Those that do mention a second rapture believe that the "elect" are Israel or the 144,000. I just don't understand how they can't see it. I thank the Lord that I stumbled upon your first two books at a used bookstore. (Finding them must have been by the hand of the Lord, for I've never seen them there since.) From that foundation and what I learned from the study of your web page, all of the prophetic scripture has opened up to me. Studying the entire book of Psalms has been an incredible confirmation in chapter after chapter of the sequence of prophetic events that you have been pointing to from the beginning. For example in the book I am working on now, I am writing a chapter on Psalm 107. That sequence of a rapture preceding the wrath of God and the beginning of the millennial kingdom is so clear.

Others have written to you about the premise that is in JR Church's book hidden prophecies in the Psalms . . . that seeing that the book of Psalms is the 19th book of the Bible that there are messages that prophetically relate to the the number of the Psalm. For example Psalm 1 relates to 1901, Psalm 2 relates to 1902 etc. Like you, I don't see that much significance to that theory as a whole, although there are some individual Psalms like Psalm 91 that can have an inference to the events of that particular year. Psalm 91 as a whole I believe mostly relates to the events on the day of the Lord. But there is, it seems certainly some parts of it that could relate to the gulf war that took place in 1991. It seems to chronicle conflict ("a thousand may fall at my side") that could be a secondary reference to war. Let me say again that these scriptures mainly, I believe, refer to the wrath of God on the Day of the Lord. "Arrow that flys by day" and "destruction that lays waste at noonday" refers to the asteroids beginning with the "big one" at noon. In the secondary prophetic reference in this Psalm to the gulf war in 1991 the scripture "no plague will come near my dwelling place" is also interesting. In the gulf war the Israelis were sealing their homes, (dwelling places) in fear of a scud missle that would carry biological (plagues) warheads hitting within their area of Israel.

I said all that to say that it seems that JR Church's theory at least fits Psalm 107 very well. That would correlate Psalm 107 with the year 2007 which we both believe will be the year the day of the Lord begins. Listen to these verses and see if they don't point sequentially to the events of "That Day". Verse 2 Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy; (the tribulation saints are redeemed or delivered from the hand of the False Prophet via the second rapture. The next verse describes that rapture)

3. And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south. (This correlates with Matthew 24:31 that says that the angels will gather the elect from the four winds, "north, south, east and west") The next two verses describe, looking back in time, to quality of the lives of the tribulation saints during the tribulation.

4. They wandered in the wilderness in a solitary way; they found no city to dwell in. 5 Hungry and thirsty, their soul fainted in them. (These saints, not taking the mark of the beast have to live a solitary existance away from the population centers. Without either supernatural provision or help from friends with access to food, they were very hungry, thirsty and ready to give up as their soul fainted within them. It is at this point that Jesus steps in, shortening the tribulation and rapturing them to the New Jerusalem. This rapture again is referred to in the next two verses.)

6 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he delivered them out of their distresses. 7 And he led them forth by the right way, that they might go to a city of habitation. (Notice it says that in this deliverance they are led forth to a "city of habitation". That's the New Jerusalem!)

I could go verse by verse through this Psalm, but to shorten this some, let me take you down to verse 25 which begins a description of part of the results of the wrath of God, which after the rapture and the sign of the Son of Man is the next thing on the agenda of the Day of the Lord.

25 For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof. 26 They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble. (This is describing a Tsunami unlike any that movies could begin to depict. The Tsunami in the movie "Deep Impact" was nothing compared to what is soon to happen. Notice it says they are so afraid that their "soul is melted".) The next verse describes the earthquakes that are to occur.

27 They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wit's end. (They are reeling and staggering because throughout the world the earth is moving under their feet. The earthquakes are so awesome that they are "at their wit's end". In other words they are out of their mind with the terror of what is happening.) 28 Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses. 29 He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still. 30 Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven. (Those that turn to the Lord during the wrath, including all of Israel, will be protected and brought out seven months later to occupy their desired haven which is the earth during the millenial reign of Christ. Notice it said "desired haven" not "city of habitation" like in verse 24.)

32 Let them exalt him also in the congregation of the people, and praise him in the assembly of the elders. (Notice is says "also". In other words, in addition to the group that was just mentioned that turn to the Lord in the midst of the wrath, there are two groups already in heaven. The "congregation of the people" is the majority of the body of Christ that has come out of the latter rain harvest of the tribulation. Revelation 7 refers to them as a group so large that "no man can number them". The "assembly of the elders" is the Bride, the faithful, mature ones that have been there for seven years.

33 He turneth rivers into a wilderness, and the watersprings into dry ground; 34 A fruitful land into barrenness, for the wickedness of them that dwell therein. (This refers to the utter devastation of the planet that comes as a result of the judgment of God on the wicked of the earth.)

35 He turneth the wilderness into a standing water, and dry ground into watersprings. 36 And there he maketh the hungry to dwell, that they may prepare a city for habitation; 37 And sow the fields, and plant vineyards, which may yield fruits of increase. 38 He blesseth them also, so that they are multiplied greatly; and suffereth not their cattle to decrease. (This is referring to the creation of a new heaven and a new earth, (a refurbishing of the atmosphere and a scorched, scarred planet) which is necessary before we enter into the millennial kingdom. Those coming through the wrath will have mortal bodies and repopulate the earth, . . ."multiply greatly".

41 Yet setteth he the poor on high from affliction, and maketh him families like a flock. (The word says in Matthew 5:3, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Those that acknowledge their need of Jesus, are intimate with Him and know that they can do nothing without Him are the poor in spirit. Those are the "poor" referred to in this verse that will be set on high, to the New Jerusalem, the kingdom of Heaven, via the rapture. It is there that all of God's flock will be family forever!)

There you have just a little gleaned from this Psalm that show, at least in this chapter, that there very well could be a correlation between Psalm 107 and the year 2007 . . . the year of the day of the Lord. Which means Marilyn that very, very soon, (since the deadline to begin the 2300 days is rapidly approaching in a little over 10 months), we will be able to talk and compare notes in the New Jerusalem. OH GLORY TO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Excuse me for getting excited.)

I know that you are very busy, but I'd like you to read my first prophecy book which the Lord directed me to write, which was recently finished, entitled "Be The Bride, volume one...another look at Raptures, Wrath, Resurrections and the Return". It is an example of fruit of your ministry that the Lord is multiplying and using to get this vital message out to more and more of the body of Christ. I will send you a copy within the next week. Any input you want to give me would be appreciated. I know we disagree on the sequence of the Judgment Seat of Christ and Armageddon, but I think most of the book will really bless you. You have been a great blessing to me. Thank you for the great effort you put in the Pro's and Con's everyday. Your labour is not in vain. We are pressing for the tape at the finish line. Your Brother in Jesus,

My reply

Thanks for your kind words and the explantion of Psa. 107.

> > I do not understand is how all the major prophecy teachers can not see that there are two distinct raptures

Me either. Some people argue that a single Rapture comes before the Tribulation, and they have good proof texts. Others argue that a single Rapture comes just before the Wrath of God is poured out on Earth, and they have good proof texts. Why they can't see that they are both right is beyond me. To me, it isn't an either/or situation. One Rapture is as the days of Noah. His wife made it, and no fire fell. Water fell, a symbol of the Spirit of Christ. That represents the Pre-Trib Rapture of the Bride of Christ very nicely. The other Rapture is as the days of Lot. His wife didn't make it, and fire fell that same day (Lu. 17:29). An asteroid took out Sodom and the cities of the plains and cracked the Earth for 5000 miles forming the Great Rift Valley. That represents the Pre-Wrath Rapture so well, it should be easy to see.

It will be an honor to read your book. We are both hungry to learn all we can about the Bible. I'm sure I can learn from you too. God bless. Agape

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FWD: Rene (31 July), posted on 5Doves site
"Trumpet Blast in Jerusalem"
I read an interesting article in one of the pulp papers today - Weekly World News Dated August 1st, 2000 ---entitled:

Mystery Trumpet Head in Holy Land - and I quote: "JERUSALEM - panic and confusion swept the Holy Land when a mysterious sound similar to a trumpet was heard over a 75-mile radius. Government investigators have not been able to indentify the source of the sound, which lasted about a minute and a half, acording to witnesses. Some Christian pilgrims said they believe the trumpet noise was a sign that the Apocalypse is imminent. In the Bible, seven angels sound their trumpets and all hell breaks loose soon thereafter. The sound of the first trumpet will soon be followed by a rash of 'Hail and fire mixed with blood,' ccording to Revelations 8:7."

Who knows???

My reply

Considering the source, I'd like to hear it from some other source before I'd believe it.

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FWD: Arafat will declare Palestinian state
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has reiterated he will declare a Palestinian state next month despite threats and objections from the United States, according to an interview published Tuesday. "It will be declared on the fixed time which is Sept. 13, God willing, regardless of those who agree or disagree."

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