Pro and Con 566

Posted 8-5-00

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Re: First White Doves Seen in My Lifetime!
I didn't want to let this day close without telling you that for the first time in my lifetime, I saw two snowy white doves fly in front of my car today as I drove. They were beautiful! My husband and I have lived in Oregon all of our lives and neither of us has ever seen a snow white dove here or anywhere else and we are bird encouraging and beautiful site!!

Surely, the signs of His coming are overwhelming! Awaiting the reality of the faith unseen together...Agape,

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. I sure haven't seen white ones, but gray ones show white in their wings when they fly. I know the all white ones must be beautiful. They are a good symbol of the Holy Spirit, and the Bride is called a dove in Song of Solomon 2:10-14. Agape

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Re: Ten Regions
I have seen you and others mention in your "pro and con" emails that the world has already been divided into ten regions. Where can I find this information as to what comprises the ten regions. After reading the Left Behind series, I would find that very interesting. Continued thanks for your dedication and ministry!

My reply

This was on The Cutting Edge Ministries.
...the New World Order Plan has divided the world into 10 Super Nations (See NEWS1002), and has nearly completed the reorganization. Briefly, the entire world has been reorganized into 10 Super Nations, as listed below:


l. North America
2. Western Europe
3. Japan
4. Australia, South Africa, and the rest of the market-economy of the developed world
5. Eastern Europe, including Russia
6. Latin America
7. North Africa and the Middle East
8. Tropical Africa
9. South and Southeast Asia
10. China
It was in the book "Mankind At The Turning Point."

Incoming email

Re: trinity
I feel that Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy spirit is three separate Identities. This is my reasoning . Jesus certainly did not pray to himself did he? many times jesus said to his disciples you must pray to your Father in this Manner, My question to you is was he telling the followers to pray to him or to Jehovah the almighty, i feel it was to the almighty. And just before his execution in the gardens of gethsemane He prayed to his father Jehovah and strength to get him through the rough time he was about to take part of. he was Praying to Jehovah his father in Heaven, not himself. Also on the torture stake he called to his father to forgive the jews and the Romans for what was taking place.

I feel that Jehovah is the almighty. jesus is his heavenly creation before the worlds beginning. The Holy spirit is Gods active force that the almighty Jehovah and Christ uses for their purposes here on earth. I know there are scripture supporting that he said the father and I are one , but you must look between the lines I felt that he meant that the Father and Jesus and the Holy spirit are in agreement and in one accord in agreeing on things. Other words what the Father says and does, Jesus is in agreement. i find it hard to believe that Jesus is Jehovah.

Maybe that is why the Jewish People have a hard time believing in Jesus as the Messiah , for they feel they should not believe in a fleshly person as Jehovah. I feel that perhaps someday that they will be able to accept jesus as messiah if it is not put to them as if he is God, Jehovah the almighty. also if you go to the library and look up Trinity the first Christians did not believe in the Trinity, they believed in Jehovah, Jesus the messiah and Holy spirit as separate individuals not all in one. it also states that the trinity is of pagan origin.

The trinity didn't start until the Catholic church came up with it. So perhaps we have confused the Jewish people with this trinitarian teaching. Also the Holy spirit is a tool that Jehovah uses and Christ uses here on earth for there blessing on mankind. In Hebrew the word spirit is meant just like the wind an unseen force . Therefore the Holy spirit is Jehovah's Holy active force, and he uses it as he Chooses. Agape. Take care...and bye for now

My reply

> > I feel that Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy spirit is three separate Identities

I believe the Bible. In Jn. 8:23-27, Jesus "said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I AM FROM ABOVE: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT THAT I AM HE, YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him. They understood not that HE SPAKE TO THEM OF THE FATHER." Jn. 10:30 says, "I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE." I believe it means exactly what it says. II Cor. 5:19 says, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself." That is clear.

Zech. 14:9 says, "And the LORD (YHVH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD, AND HIS NAME ONE." Mt. 28:19 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim, plural) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH),"

When we get to the heavenly New Jerusalem, we are still going to see God in the face of Jesus. Rev. 22:3,4 says, "the throne (one throne) of God AND of the Lamb shall be in it; and his (singular) servants shall serve him (singular): And they shall see his face (one face); and his name (one name) shall be in their foreheads."

Jesus instructed man to pray to the Father and did so himself as a good example. Jn. 11:41-43 says, "they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I KNEW THAT THOU HEAREST ME ALWAYS: BUT BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE WHICH STAND BY I SAID IT, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAST SENT ME. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth."

> > I feel that Jehovah is the almighty

Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD (YHVH) the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD (YHVH) of hosts; I am the first (YHVH King of Israel), and I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and beside me there is no God." In Rev. 1:8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus said, " I am Alpha AND Omega, the beginning AND the end, the first (Lord of the Old Testament) AND the last (Lord of the New Testament).... I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root (YHVH of hosts) AND the offspring of David" (Jesus).

Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his deity from his Father): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

> > if you go to the library and look up Trinity

If you do that, you will just have one other fallible human being's opinion. The only rock-hard truth we have to go by is the Bible. We are put here to be tested, and God gave us a manual so we had a chance to pass our test. It isn't his fault if we fail to read it. Agape

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THE SEED OF ABRAHAM; re: Pro/Con 561
You blessed me by your sound counsel to the "last Incoming e-mail" you replied:
****We are Abraham's spiritual seed, but be careful to keep the promises to the Church separate from the promises to Israel. Israel's will all come true to literal Israel. We are of the heavenly group, as some of them are, but that does not change anything that was promised to literal Israel here on Earth. Agape.

As I thought about the Incoming e-mail and your response I remembered the following from a book called THE SEED OF ABRAHAM - Children of The Covenant Here is an excerpt from file://
Robert Somerville writes:
TWO MANNER OF SEED: Who are the seed of Abraham today? The following scripture provides some good insight into the answer. This is the God of heaven speaking to Abraham in allegorical and prophetic terms at the time of covenant: "That in blessing I will bless thee (Abraham), and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the STARS of the heaven, and as the SAND which is upon the seashore..." (Genesis 22:17).
The words stars and sand are used symbolically to describe Abraham's seed. The Bible quite often employs such picture language to convey divine thought. Its use in this particular scripture sheds a great deal of light on the subject in question, WHO ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM? Notice that it emphasized two important characteristics of Abraham's seed: (1) They would be great in number. (2) They would be as stars and sand. Let us examine the second. Why did God use the analogy of STARS and SAND in the divine description of Abraham's seed? Is it only because they would be great in number? If so, only one of these descriptions would have been necessary. Perhaps there is more to it. A deeper lesson can be learned here. Let's look at it. Stars are elements of the heavenly realm while sand is terrestrial (of the earth). The inference seems to be that God would produce two manner of seed through Abraham; HEAVENLY and EARTHLY or SPIRITUAL and NATURAL. One major event set the stage to create this scenario: "And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the STARS of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God" (Deuteronomy 28:62). The promise of being "as the stars of heaven" was cancelled through Israel's disobedience, which in the foreknowledge of God set the stage for the implementation of an alternative program wherein all, or "whosoever will" through the Covenant of Messiah, may become "star seed" of Abraham. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29 NIV).

Daniel, the prophet saw this in prophetic vision: "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the STARS for ever and ever" (Daniel 12:3).

By this, two manner of seed were created which is now manifested as Christians and Jews. Both of these are a result of God's covenantal relationship with Abraham. It is what one might call a "dual posterity" in the earth (Hebrews 11:12, Galatians 3:29).

We see this same principle expressed in I Corinthians 15:46: "...that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." Such is the case with the Jewish People and the Church. The Jews (natural) came first, then came the birth of the Church (spiritual). One did not cancel the other. Paul's direct reference is to Adam and Jesus. Adam produced the human family (natural). Jesus the Messiah produced the Christian family (Spiritual). Father God was the author of both. Again, one did not cancel the other. They coexist in this earth today. Abraham reflects a similar dimension in that through him came his son, Isaac (natural seed) and Jesus (spiritual seed, Galatians 3:16). From this we must conclude that there are two continuing manifestations of Abraham's seed in the earth, Jews and Christians. Today, God is at work with His "dual posterity", the stars and sand, seed of Abraham, (the Church and Israel). While restoring the Church to its full spiritual potential He is also restoring the Jewish people and their nation, with a view toward their ultimate spiritual restoration (Romans 9:27).

That the Jews are the seed of Abraham and a covenant people seems clear but the question arises: What is the Biblical perspective of the Arabs in all of this? The Arabic people are indeed a natural seed of Abraham also through his son Ishmael and God has promised to bless them (Genesis 21:13, 17:20). They are not however, a promised seed nor a Covenant people as are the Jews (Abraham's descendants through Isaac). Therefore the Arabs are not included directly in this covenantal promise of Genesis 22:17.

Marilyn: In closing, could you provide me will a comment on Robert Somerville's last remarks regarding the Arabs. To me if an Arab accepts Christ's salvation he belongs over in the seed promise of the Church/Spiritual/Heavenly/or Star group. A group not left out of the promise. Can you clear this doctrine up for me?

"For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them AGAIN to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up". And I will give them an heart to know me, that I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart" (Jeremiah 24:6, 7).

May God bless and keep you and your house hold while we pray together for the full and complete reconciliation between Israel and the Church, Abraham's natural and spiritual seed. Agape'.

My reply

Thanks for sending me this interesting information. I had not run across it before.

I agree with you. The Arabs, along with all people of the world, can be part of the heavenly group. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. I Jn. 2:2 says, "he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Lu. 13:29 says, "And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Anyone that accepts Christ as his own personal Saviour is part of the heavenly group. Mt. 8:11 says, "many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

Rom. 3:7,8 says, "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Gal. 3:13,14 says, "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Hagar was an Egyptian. Ishmael, her son by Abraham, married an Egyptian, but they lived in the Wilderness of Paran on the Sinai Peninsula. Agape

Incoming email

Re: re trinity
thanks for your comments , but still Jesus in no way claimed to be Jehovah at any time of his ministry, he taught the followers to pray to jehovah and not him. Yes he is the alpha and the omega, the reason for this is that Jesus was Jehovah first Creation in the universe, of course, it is said that we must believe ,yes believe in him as the messiah and the sacrifice for our sins and we must go through him in prayer to get to the Almighty Yahweh or Jehovah that is true, but we are not to look upon him as Jehovah the almighty, because the bible says no one has seen God and lived. Also it is of pagan origin the trinity- it is a pagan belief it was call the tri -add trinity god. and I know the first century christians would not of believed in that sort of things, they did not even believe in birthdays and pagan celebrations in their day.

Again the Catholic church adopted the trinity not the first Christians. and also the Jews would believe that the Messiah when he came would be the anointed one - not God in the flesh , and that Yahweh would send the Messiah to rebuild the temple in a literal sense, although they have failed to see the spiritual Picture. I have also heard that there is a religion that is a great conversion of Jewish People to the Belief Of Jehovah's witnesses is the state of Israel, something is attracting these hebrew people to them ,and as far as i know these are Christians(Jehovah's Witnesses). Are these people going to be the ones that are going to rescue the jewish people to Christ? it seems strange doesn't it, May Jehovah's Witnesses have something we Churches do no have? Maybe this is Gods way of saving the Jewish people before the end? agape. Take care ...and bye for now

My reply

> > we Churches

What is your church? You have learned your spiel well, but you don't know how to back it up with Scripture. You believe what man says, but you disregard what God says.

You don't know about the Jehovah's Witnesses? My goodness, they have missed the mark. They think Jesus was Michael the archangel. They say that the Emphatic Diaglott, the Greek text translated by Wilson, shows that John 1:1 should be translated "and the Word was a God." Wilson did not understand it that way. He translated "kai theos en o Logos" as "And the LOGOS was God." Colwell's Rule of Greek Grammar says "a definite predicate nominative takes the article when it FOLLOWS the verb; it does NOT do so when it precedes the verb as in John 1:1." Both Berry's and Green's Interlinear translations say, "and the Word was God."

>> > Jesus was Jehovah first Creation in the universe

Jesus Christ is the creator himself. Jn. 1:1-4,14 says, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM; AND WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. IN HIM WAS LIFE....And THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US."

> > we are not to look upon him as Jehovah the almighty, because the bible says no one has seen God and lived.

He said he was the Almighty. Rev. 1:8 says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." If you don't believe it, I feel sorry for you. Scripture is the only rock-hard truth we have. Heb. 1:1-6 says, "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en, in) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down ON THE RIGHT HAND of the Majesty on high: Being made so much BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD (including Michael the archangel) WORSHIP HIM."

The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God. When speaking of sending the Spirit of Christ as the Comforter, Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU." Rom. 8:9 says, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the SPIRIT OF GOD dwell in you. Now if any man have not the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he is none of his." I Pet. 1:11 says, "Searching what, or what manner of time the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Isa. 53:1-5 says, "to whom is THE ARM OF THE LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS (Jesus Christ's, the ARM of the Lord's) STRIPES WE ARE HEALED."

> > the bible says no one has seen God and lived

That's ok. No man has seen God. Jn. 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Jn 4:24 says, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

> > it is of pagan origin the trinity

That doesn't matter at all. Satan set up counterfeit religions to fool mankind. in Isa. 48:12-18, "The LORD of hosts" (v. 2, the pre-incarnate Christ) says, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first (the LORD of hosts, the pre-incarnate Christ), I ALSO am the last (the incarnate Christ). MINE HAND also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together...Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I (Christ): and now (1) the Lord GOD (the Father), and (2) his Spirit (the Holy Spirit), hath sent (3) me (Christ). Thus saith the LORD, THY REDEEMER, the Holy One of Israel; I AM THE LORD THY GOD which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. O that thou hadst hearkened to MY COMMANDMENTS! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea" The pre-incarnate Christ gave Moses the 10 commandments at Sinai. "And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp TO MEET WITH GOD" (Ex. 19:17). The pre-incarnate Christ is God; the incarnate Christ is God.

> > also the Jews would believe that the Messiah when he came would be the anointed one - not God in the flesh

But, that is exactly what the Bible says he is, God in the flesh. The Word was God, and he was made flesh and dwelt among us. Agape

Incoming email

Re: State of Judea
After hearing of "State of Judea" in an incoming email, I found the following through a search:

Kach a.k.a. the Repression of Traitors, Dikuy Bogdim, DOV, the State of Judea, the Committee for the Safety of the Roads, the Sword of David, Judea Police, Forefront of the Idea, The Qomemiyut Movement, The Yeshiva of the Jewish Idea


Kahane Chai a.k.a. Kahane Lives, the Kfar Tapuah Fund, The Judean Voice, The Judean Legion, The Way of the Torah, The Yeshiva of the Jewish Idea, KOACH

Description: Stated goal is to restore the biblical state of Israel. Kach (founded by radical Israeli-American rabbi Meir Kahane) and its offshoot Kahane Chai, which means "Kahane Lives," (founded by Meir Kahane's son Binyamin following his father's assassination in the United States) were declared to be terrorist organizations in March 1994 by the Israeli Cabinet under the 1948 Terrorism Law. This followed the groups' statements in support of Dr. Baruch Goldstein's attack in February 1994 on the al-Ibrahimi Mosque--Goldstein was affiliated with Kach--and their verbal attacks on the Israeli Government.

Activities: Organize protests against the Israeli Government. Harass and threaten Palestinians in Hebron and the West Bank. Have threatened to attack Arabs, Palestinians, and Israeli Government officials. Claimed responsibility for several shootings of West Bank Palestinians that killed four persons and wounded two in 1993.

Strength: Unknown.

Location/Area of Operation: Israel and West Bank settlements, particularly Qiryat Arba' in Hebron.

External Aid: Receives support from sympathizers in the United States and Europe.

Incoming email

Re: What will they say?
Quick question...when the rapture occurs how do you think the rest of the world will rationalize/explain our disappearance? Is there scripture to give us a hint at what they will say about it? Keep up the good work and thanks to you....Im looking up! Because of Him

My reply

Honestly, I don't know. On the one hand, it seems that it would disrupt the economy for awhile. We do know that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 24:51; 22:13). However, Isa. 57:1-3 says, "The righteous perisheth (abad, escapes), and NO MAN LAYETH IT TO HEART: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds (in Heaven, Psa. 149:5), each one walking in his uprightness. But draw NEAR hither (i.e., in the Tribulation), ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore" (Rev. 17:1f).

It will be the people that are gone that really understand what is coming, not the ones that are left behind. As a group, they won't understand (Dan. 12:10). Many may just be glad to get our jobs, and go blithely on. Others may buy into Satanic explanations. Whatever splash it makes will soon spread into smaller and smaller ripples and be forgotten by the masses. If there should be some sort of disaster at the same time, that could obscure the effects too.

Some say there will be accidents all over the place. I'm not even sure of that. There are legions of angels. They may take care of things like that. Who knows? The thing about it that I feel sure of is that there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture. The details are up to the all-powerful Lord. He can do whatever he wants to do in any situation. He brought Israel out of Egypt in what then was a totally unexpected way. He didn't tell them ahead of time how he was going to do it either. Even Moses wasn't given the whole picture ahead of time. He was given information on a need to know basis. The reason we aren't given all the details of everything is so the just HAVE to walk by faith.

Jesus said it would be as the days of Noah. Only 8 people understood what was coming ahead of time. The only reason they did was they believed God. They took him at his word. The rest expected everything to keep on just as it had been. They were the ones that got fooled. God is going to do a new thing in our days too. It will be interesting to see how it works out. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Resurrection Glory: Its Mysteries Revealed Thanks so much for capsulizing some of your tho'ts on that little book. You and I think a lot alike (probably because I've been following your web-site for so long, besides reading your books). Anyway, I try to study hard, but lack the talent you have for bringing it all together.

Please, if you get time enlarge your tho'ts on the male child caught up to Heaven. When during the tribulation does it happen? I think Biernes says it is the 144,000? not Christ. That it is the fact that Israel (the woman) finally believes in Christ (births Him?) and then the 144,000 are caught up as their job is done? I have really pondered and chewed on this. I don't know why as it is not dependent on my salvation. And...since it's not, you don't have to answer, since your job is very important in keeping people straight. Just wanted to at least acknowledge your reply to my need to know if you got the booklet, and some of your comments. Thanks again. I look forward to each new P&C. I expect to meet you and Ed VERY soon. May God continue your strength until He comes for us.

My reply

> > enlarge your tho'ts on the male child caught up to Heaven

The only thing that seems to make sense to me is the 2 witnesses. The time is Mid-Trib, when they are resurrected and caught up to Heaven. Agape

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