Pro and Con 57, Uploaded 1-28-98
My reply to a long email
You said that Rapture was not in the Bible. Consider this. The word translated "caught up" in the Rapture passage in I Thess 4:17 is "rapiemir" in the Latin Bible. That becomes "Rapture" in English.
You said, "We can't be taken off this earth for the bible says so." Please tell me then, why we are promised that our home is Heaven? Why are we to lay up treasures in Heaven? Why did Jesus have to leave Earth to prepare us a place? You used OT verses to try to prove your understanding of a New Testament concept.
You can stay on Earth if you want. I choose to go to Heaven, just as Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Sara do. Heb 11:15,16 says, "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly."
You said, "we will go through the tribulation." Why then did Jesus say in Lu 21:36, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted WORTHY TO ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
Israel is promised the Earth. We have a heavenly Promised Land.
You said, "This people that is deceiving us about a secret rapture will have to answer for it...The rapture is just a trick of the devil." I would be deathly afraid to make such a statement. And the Rapture is not so secret. Psa 40:1-3 says, "I WAITED patiently for the LORD; and he inclined (bent down) unto me, and heard my cry. He BROUGHT ME UP also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay (bodies of clay), and set my feet upon a rock (planet Heaven), and established my goings. And he hath put a new song in my mouth (sung after the Rapture, Rev 5:9), even praise unto our God: MANY SHALL SEE IT (the Rapture), and fear, and shall trust in the LORD."
You said, "Jesus will return in the middle of the tribulation." Oh, and let the False Prophet rule the last 3 1/2 years of the seven. What kind of reasoning is that? The seven years are divided into 3 1/2 years and 3 1/2 years. The Beast will rule during the former, and the False Prophet will rule during the latter. Jesus will reign from the first day of the Millennium, not from the middle of the Tribulation when the two witnesses are killed by the Satan-possessed False Prophet.
You tell me, one who has studied the Bible intensively for 37 years, to "not rely on what others say, use an open bible and have an open heart, and God will show you the truth." I have done that. I have been able, with God's help, to find out things others did not know. Please take your own advise. You have a ways to go, and not much time to do it in. I think the Rapture will take place next Pentecost. You may only have a bit over 4 months to figure all this out. To go in the first Rapture, we must be ready.
I just finished answering an email that may shed light on your letter. Therefore, I am sending you a copy.
> I need help. I always thought that at least one of the Raptures was at the
> seventh and last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:51 says he tells us a MYSTERY.
> Then I look at Revelation 10:7 and it says "in the days when the seventh angel
> is to blow his trumpet the MYSTERY of G-d will be fulfilled." Then I look
> over at Revelation 11:15, when the angel blows the seventh trumpet, and it
> says "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his
> Messiah." If this isn't Rapture, please tell me what it is. We are the
> kingdom of G-d on earth aren't we?
My reply > I always thought that at least one of the Raptures was at the
> seventh and last trumpet.
If it were, Christians would suffer God's wrath. That cannot be. There is now NO condemnation for those that love the Lord.
The first Rapture is at the first trump, the last at the last trump. However, what is confusing is that these two trumpet calls are not the 7 trumpet judgments. The Rapture passage in I Thess. 4:16 says, "the trump of God." The seven trumpets are sounded by angels, not God. Rev. 8:2 says, I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." These are not the same as "the trump of God."
Num. 10:2-5 demonstrates what these two trumps are for: "Make thee TWO trumpets (not 7) of silver...that thou mayest use them for the CALLING of the ASSEMBLY, and for the JOURNEYING of the camps. And when they shall blow with them (both), ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the DOOR of the tabernacle of the congregation. And if they blow but with ONE TRUMPET, then the princes (i.e., 12 of the elders of Rev. 4:4), which are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall gather themselves unto thee."
At the Pre-Trib Rapture, the first "calling of the assembly" takes place. Heb. 12:22,23 says, "ye are come unto mount Sion (Heaven), and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general ASSEMBLY and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." This parallels I Thess. 4:13-18's first "trump of God."
At the Pre-Wrath Rapture, "ALL the assembly shall assemble themselves." This parallels I Cor. 15:51,52's "at the LAST TRUMP." At that time, "ALL" will be changed."
At the first Rapture, "The FIRST of the firstfruits" (Ex. 23:19) are to be brought into the house of the LORD thy God. I think these are the wise virgins, the Bride of Christ, the ones who are ready when the Bridegroom comes. At the second Rapture, the rest of the Body of Christ, including the foolish virgins, are brought in. At that point in time, ALL the Body of Christ is in Heaven.
Therefore, at the first trump, the Bride of Christ is caught up. At the last trump, the rest of the Body of Christ is caught up.
> Revelation 11:15, when the angel blows the seventh trumpet, and it
> says If this isn't Rapture, please tell me what it is.
It happens to be the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is the day Christ is crowned in Heaven. After that, the Marriage of the Lamb takes place. Following that is silence in Heaven and on Earth while the Judge is seated at the Judgment Seat of Christ. After rewards are handed out to those in Heaven and sentence is passed on unbelievers on Earth, the seven angels sound the seven trumpet judgments. At that point, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah." Jesus reigns for a thousand years, beginning that very day.
Rev. 11:18 says, "thy WRATH is come, AND the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; AND shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." All this takes place on the first day of the Millennium. Before this Judgment Seat of Christ, ALL saints must be in Heaven. The trumpet judgments hit unbelievers on Earth as the saints in Heaven receive their rewards for their belief and work for the Lord.
Incoming Email It was good to see someone out there in the body of Christ that sees more than one rapture in the bible. Praise God. I want to suggest to you that there is even a third rapture, that of the 144,000 who are all of Israel. They are seen in Rev. 7 as being sealed (that is, filled with Holy Spirit). Compare that with Ephesians 1:13. We next see them in heaven in Rev. 14. Well, My question is when did get caught up to heaven. I believe that we find the answer is Rev.12 where the manchild is caught up unto God and to his throne. I further believe that the five wise virgins in Matt. 25 are those same 144000 out of Israel. Keep this in mind that Matthew portrays Christ as the King. This tells us that the teachings found in Matthew apply primarily to Israel and the jews. That is what we have portrayed in Matt. 24 & 25. If we look at the time mentioned in the parable of ten virgins we see that it is midnight or somewhere near the middle of the week of tribulation. I don't have time or space to put down all my thoughts here, but I will say this much right now. Look at this parable and the manchild and the woman fleeing into the wilderness in Rev. 12 together. I see the five follish virgins as that woman and she represents the faithful rememant out of Israel whom God will protect during Jacob's trouble (2nd half of the week). We think of midnight as being the middle of the week, but I want you to consider Mark 13:35. There the Jewish night (the tribulation period) into four equal parts with midnight being the second watch. If we superimpose these watches over the tribulation period, we see that the catching away of the five wise virgins (144,000) occurs not exactly in the middle of the week, but rather during the time frame of the second half of the first half of the week of tribulation. This all fits with the timeframe of events occuring in Rev. 12 if we see one other fact. You said that the tribulation period would be shortened to 2300 days Dan. 8:14. However, Jesus' statement in Matt. 24:22 implies a question How many days? The answer is 250 days and can be calculated if you put Dan. 8: 14 together with Dan. 12:11. Now, why is this important? Simply this. Most of the events described in Rev. 12 occur about 250 days before the middle of the week. Why? If the antichrist reigns exactly 1260 days or three and one-half years, then he must come into power earlier if the whole week is shortened. I trust that you will meditate on the importance of thes 250 days and those that you will find these comments as food for thought.
My reply > I want to suggest to you that there is even a third rapture, that of
> the 144,000 who are all of Israel.
I don't think so, other than Moses and Elijah being caught up. In Rev. 6, we have the first six seals opened, and the seventh is not to be opened until Rev. 8. At the end of chapter six, it says, "the great day of his wrath is come." This is the end of the shortened Tribulation.
Chapter 7 fits between the breaking of the sixth and seventh seals. In it we find that the 144,000 and a great multitude out of all nations "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night" (Rev. 7:14,15). This is Rapture II. The sealing of the 144,000 takes place "after these things" (7:1), i.e., after the Day of God's Wrath is come (6:17), not at the first of the Tribulation, which is so often taught.
The sealing after the sixth seal is opened, followed by the seven trumpet judgments when the seventh seal is opened is like Ezek. 9:4-6. There the man clothed with linen was told, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a MARK (i.e., a seal) upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. And to the others he said...Go ye after him through the city, and smite...Slay utterly." The sealing immediately precedes the smiting.
In Rev. 6-8, the sealing also precedes the smiting. In between the sealing and the smiting is the Rapture of the Tribulation saints. It is the Pre-Wrath Rapture, but it takes place on the Day of God's Wrath, just before the seventh seal is opened and the seven trumpets are sounded. Both the "great mountain burning with fire" (Rev. 8:8) and the "great star ("aster") from heaven, burning as it were a lamp" (Rev. 8:10) strike Earth at noon that day (Zeph. 2:4,5). Therefore, the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the 144,000 plus the great multitude are caught up to Heaven sometime after 6:00 PM and before noon on the Day of God's Wrath. They get out of here so as by fire, out of a fiery furnace, so to speak, for the smoke is already in the sky when the sixth seal is broken. The sun is black and the moon looks like blood. Some small rocks have even fallen "as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind" (Rev. 6:13).
> when did get caught up to heaven. I believe that we find the answer
> is Rev.12 where the manchild is caught up unto God and to his throne.
I thought for awhile that the Translation of the Tribulation Saints might be in the middle of the Tribulation. It took me a couple of years to get it straight. Only Moses and Elijah (referred to as the man child, neuter gender, in Rev. 12:5) are caught up Mid-Trib. Those living during the Tribulation have a chance to go in the second Rapture right up to the time between the opening of the sixth and seventh seals. It is as the days of Lot. He came out of Sodom and fire fell that same day.
> Most of the events described in Rev. 12 occur about 250 days before
> the middle of the week. Why? If the antichrist reigns exactly 1260
> days or three and one-half years, then he must come into power earlier
> if the whole week is shortened.
They do not occur 250 days before the middle of the week. The WHOLE week is not shortened. Dominion is taken away from Satan at the Judgment of the Nations at the full end of the final seven years of Dan. 9's 490 years. However, the timing of the asteroid impact IS SHORTENED or no flesh would be saved. If it orbited one more time, maybe it would hit Earth square-on and break it in pieces as Satan's planet, Rahab, was split in pieces. This way, the rocks come in at an oblique angle. Earth is scarred from at least Babylon to Ethiopia, the Mediterranean Sea is hit, the globe is turned upside down, but it is not broken apart.
The events described in Rev. 12 take place EXACTLY in the middle of the seven years. The preceding 1260 days is in Rev. 11:3. Then Moses and Elijah are killed. The following 1260 days is in Rev. 12:6,14.
The shortened portion is the 2300 days of Dan. 8:14. It has to do with the time the Jews sacrifice (the first 1260 days) and the time they do not (the remaining 1040 days) because the Satan-possessed False Prophet sits in the temple (on the 1260th day) shewing himself that he is God and places the abomination of desolation. This is the very day that Satan and his angels are cast down to Earth (Rev. 12:7-9). Satan knows his time is short and goes into a flurry of activity that very day.
The 2300th day of the shortened Tribulation is the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. It is Jesus' birthday, the Feast of Trumpets, his Coronation Day (like Solomon, Jesus' mother will probably crown him on his birthday), the day of the Marriage of the Lamb, the day of the Rapture of the Tribulation Saints, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ, the day of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the Day of God's Wrath, an event packed day both in Heaven and on Earth.
Incoming Email May the blessings and peace of the Lord be with you! There are several reasons I am writing: to thank you for your diligent work that has produced such helpful books; to share a brief testimony that should interest you; and to offer a small contribution to "the work"for these last days.
I am a Pastor filled with God's Spirit awaiting the coming of the Lord. I have been studying God's Word for about 44 years now and find great value in all your writings. Thank you!
The testimony I mentioned was somewhat similar to one that you have had and the similarity between them is actually what prompted me to write. In 1977 I injured my back seriously and required surgery. It took six months to recover. On the first day that I was to try walking again an interesting thing happened. I was walking near a frozen bay in January just as a blizzard was ending. I was praying within for about 40 minutes, insistently asking God for power to do the work He called me to do. I heard a loud male voice speak from behind me, and thinking it was a man that I failed to see because of the high snow piles on both sides, I went and looked. First one side then the other. Nothing there! The words I heard were "Be still..". It dawned on me that it was the Lord so I called out in the same volume and said,"Is that You Lord?". He replied.. "Yes"! Then He told me to be still ( He was referring to my praying within that gave Him no space in which to respond). He was listening to every word I said within my heart! He then told me several things that I needed to know for the call that He placed on my life.
The small contribution that I referred to is this: while praying and searching Scripture this morning for the message that the Lord wanted me to bring to the people of God tomorrow, I was reading Proverbs 31 and the Lord showed me a prophetic word having to do with the Bride in these days. Verses 22 - 25 refer to the preparations the Bride is now making which produces the "fine linen,clean and bright" mentioned in Rev.19:8;"Many are called but few are chosen".
My reply Thanks for your kind words about my books and for sharing your testimony with me. The Lord is Awesome. It is amazing how similar our experiences were.
> The words I heard were "Be still..". It dawned on me that it was the Lord so I
> called out in the same volume and said,"Is that You Lord?". He replied.. "Yes"!
> Then He told me to be still
When I heard, "Be still and know that I am God," I had just been awakened with a start. I felt absolutely terrified. I felt that I had to not move, and my wildly beating heart quieted immediately. I did not move till daylight, either.
> I was praying within for about 40 minutes,
> insistently asking God for power to do the work He called me to do.
I had earnestly asked the Lord what he wanted me to do before that. I cannot remember how close together the two incidents were, but they were in the same general time frame.
I think the Lord opened my understanding that night. I had asked to understand everything he wanted man to know about the Bible--everything, all the deep things. After that, I was able to figure out things that as far as I knew, no one else had been able to fathom. I was able to find answers to my questions that seven years of reading a big stack of books each week from BIOLA's library had not answered.
> I was reading Proverbs 31 and
> the Lord showed me a prophetic word having to do with the Bride in these
> days. Verses 22 - 25 refer to the preparations the Bride is now making
> which produces the "fine linen,clean and bright" mentioned in
> Rev.19:8;"Many are called but few are chosen".
I agree. I had written in the margin out from verse 23, "1st Rapture, Rev. 4." It says, "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land." To me, "husband" shows that the first Rapture, when the elders are seen, is for the Bride of Christ, just as the wise virgins go with the Bridegroom.
The words that follow to the end of Proverbs certainly do have to do with the preparations we should be making so we will be chosen to be the Bride. I appreciate your pointing this out.
It says, "She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness....a woman that fearth the LORD, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates."
Please keep me posted as new insight is given you. I feel sure that the Lord has lots to show you. I think he gives some things to one person, other things to someone else. No one knows it all. If we put what we understand together, we will all certainly be enriched.
Incoming Email Bob Ware wrote:
Have you seen this using all combinations of the 153 fishes?
+531(5-31 May 31st)
My reply Yes. It made me realize that the 153 fish could represent those wise virgins caught up when the Bridegroom comes. The other fish were not caught up, as the foolish virgins won't be caught up. Jesus came to the believers on the sea (i.e., the world), the fish on the right (as the sheep are on the right in Mt. 25:33) were caught up, the believers came to land, then Jesus prepared a meal and said, "Come and dine."
Incoming Email ...a thought occured to me the other day that the person who "attended the marriage" but didn't have the proper clothes, might be a type of the False Prophet at the Rapture. The reason why is that he is thrown alive into the lake of fire, with the antiChirst, so I would assume that he would have to be judged previous to this.
As far as there being two Rapture's, I think that this is hinted at in the verse, "Christ the firstfruits, and then those that are Christ's at his coming." I think that (since there is no punctuation in the greek) that we could insert a comma after Chirst making "the firstfruits" the stages of the Ressurection (Barley-Jesus;Wheat-Church;Fruits-14,000). I have been meaning to ask someone who knows greek if this is a possibility, or if it definately isn't.
The person who called us "Wackey" was right, I do think that what he said is FOOLISHNESS!!!!!!!!!!!! And your answer (bewitched)is appropriate. He aught to start reading the Bible, and not listen to the Blind Spiritualist that obviously poses as a Shepherd in his Church.
> the person who "attended the marriage" but didn't have the proper clothes,
> might be a type of the False Prophet at the Rapture.
I doubt it. Not having a wedding garment is more in line with the Laodiceans. The Beast and False Prophet are judged at the Judgment of the Nations after Christ returns. Satan has dominion taken away from him at this time, at the end of the full seven years of the Tribulation.
Incoming Email You might be interested in the following web page - it concerns the Giza pyramid and points to 2004 for mid-trib? http://home.cdsnet.net/~rkhaeske/index.htm
My reply Thanks for the suggestion. I visited the site twice, but somehow, I just can't get behind any pyramid dating schemes. I think the parable of the barren fig tree in Luke 13:6-9 shows us the length of time between the Pre-Trib Rapture and the beginning of the Tribulation, thus I do think 2004 is the middle of the Tribulation. However, it is based on the Bible, not the pyramid. The Bible is a sure thing. The pyramid is not.
Here is another reason I think there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation. After I found out that the whole book of Revelation was written as if the Rapture was "at hand" (Rev. 1:3; 22:10,20), I realized that Rev. 1:19 means, "Write the things which thou hast seen (before the Rapture), and the things which are (when the Rapture is "at hand"), and the things which shall be hereafter ("hereafter" the Rapture, Rev. 4:1).
This does not rule out the fact that Jesus looked back, grabbed some history from each church group, and then stretched it up to the present. Thus, he gave a view of the history of the church as well as the view of the present, when the Rapture is imminent. In the message to Thyatira, he even mentioned casting some into "great tribulation." But, he stood on the pinnacle of the Rapture to look both backwards and forwards through time.
Once I got that straight, I could see new meaning in some spots. One is the identity of the 7 kings of Rev. 17. Since it is written as if the Rapture is at hand, the king that "is" must be the Pope, head of Ecclesiastical Rome. This makes the first king Nimrod at the Tower of Babel, which I immediately saw was correct because that was where "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER" of harlot religions began.
Once I identified those SEVEN kings, I read that the TEN kings "have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast" (Rev. 17:12). This shows that there is a gap between the Rapture and the Tribulation, for when the Tribulation begins in Rev. 13, the ten horns already have "crowns."
Incoming Email really enjoying your third book. i've learned alot! i also am reading Jim Harrison's book "the Pattern and the Prophecy."
amazing things in that book. many confirm what the Lord showed me supernaturally in December. one thing he mentions is the absolute wonder the number 153 is, and how it operates. He calls it the most amazing number in the Bible. it's too complicated to go into, but it is cool. He calls it 'Jesus' heavenly number, 888 he calls Jesus earthly number. His book describes all. i did not say i agreed with everything in there, but i have been blessed!
...your email responses on the pro and con pages are stellar. you have a cool head, and stick to your guns. great job.
Praise Him, for He is Worthy!
My reply Amen to that last line.
I have read Harrison's book. I know you enjoy it. Bob Ware did too.
Thanks for the kudos. I do stick to my guns, don't I. I have studied the pro and cons of different interpretations so much that I know exactly why I believe what I do.
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