Pro and Con 572

Posted 8-12-00

Incoming email

Re: Harvest Moon, Worm Does Not Die, Fishers of men
1) On Wednesday August 2 at about 9pm PDST, I was on a whole day journey north to a work site, when I for no apparent reason felt compelled to look out my vehicle to the right (west) and was looking at the setting crescent moon at about 9pm. A voice spoke to me from nowhere (and the radio was not on), and it said "HARVEST MOON". Now I know you heard a voice at one time that told you "BE STILL AND KNOW THAT I AM ...", therefore you can identify with this type of event, and know that I was not imagining something. I have never had an experience like this before. Well, I looked into what "HARVEST MOON" is defined as, and it is the full moon closest to the Autumnal Equinox, which I think is September 22, 2000. Then I went to www.sunrisesunset.com and looked what day this would be. I felt a jolt of "electricity" through my body when I learned it is on SEPTEMBER 13, 2000! We all should know what date that will be by now. The latest I have read is that Mr. Arafat is going to declare the Palestinian State in Jerusalem with or without the consent of anybody, on that date. Now, considering that the end of the year 5760 is September 29 of 2000, for Song of Solomon to be fulfilled (summer is nigh), the Pre-Trib Rapture has to be prior, to satisfy this, and I agree totally with you that 5760 is the third year of the "fig tree". The Bible is 100% of God, who is Perfect and Holy and Righteous, so we must follow the Word.

So once again, why do I share this with others? I am nothing more than a humble servant, and in no way do I lay any claim to any special consideration by the Lord. HE is not a respecter of men, and ALL Spirit Filled Believers are on equal footing. Like others, I pray to be used by HIM to glorify the FATHER, and hence accept by faith, that this is answer to prayer. All readers should pray for discernment of what I write here, and not waste effort and energy agreeing or dis-agreeing with me.

2)There has been much discussion and issue with "the worm that dieth not". In Agape to all who have written in, I would like to clarify this issue by examing the care and raising of SHEEP by a SHEPHERD. (actual sheep the animal, not us as believers). A sheep must be very careful when it grazes, that it does not cut, nick, or injure it's flesh on it's head or body. For example on a sharp rock or some object. The reason is (and this is somewhat disturbing), that an open wound will have fly eggs or maggots laid in the wound, which will be nourished by the blood and flesh of the injured sheep. THESE ARE THE WORMS. The sheep, if not treated by the shepherd, will actually go insane from the torment of the worms, and will literally run around head first into rocks, in an attempt to kill itself. The torment is that intense. So now, let us look at the Spirit of the lost, which is not of Jesus Christ. You are right Marilyn, the worm does refer to the Spirit. The torment of that Spirit is as of the Sheep with the worms or maggots, except the WORM DIETH NOT. That spirit will be in eternal torment, desiring to rid itself of the pain and agony just as the sheep tries to kill itself, but can not. This is also an analogy of those who will be tormented by demons of the abyss at the end of the Great Tribulation, and will seek death, but will not find it.

3)The web site on the different types of crosses, (back in one of the P&C's a couple of months ago), shows an anchor cross with what literally looks like a "hook" on the bottom. I would like to suggest that it actually looks like a "fishing hook". Recall when the Lord told Simon Peter that he would become a "fisher of men". Well, there always have been two fishermen in the Spiritual sense. The Lord Jesus Christ and the fallen one of Isaiah and Ezekiel. I suggest that this is why we are seeing the sign of the Anchor Cross, this is the Trinity "fishing for any who will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation". If anyone can not see the "fishing hook" of that old serpent, look at this sex crazed society that is accepting the occult in music, books, television, movies and on and on. ...See you in the air soon! Agape

My reply

What an interesting date! The Oslo Accords were signed Sept. 13, 1993. Add the 7 good years and you come to Sept. 13, 2000. Didn't someone mention that there might be some diversion take place at the same time? :-) Agape

Incoming email

Re: I FOUND YOU!!!!
My name is --- and I live in North york, ON, Canada. I had been sooo terribly disappointed because I couldn't find anymore books by you in the bookstores! It was WONDERFUL to find that you have a website. If you don't mind, I think I'll be "pestering" you with questions from now on. I just loved your books! Don't stop writing them!

Thank you so much for still being available for those who, like me, are eagerly waiting for the Rapture. God bless you!

My reply

I'm glad you found me. It is so nice to hear from you. I'm ready for your questions. Pester away. Just don't put them all in one email. Break it into chunks I'll feel like tackling. :-) Agape

Incoming email

From: SnipeAP55 Hotmaail.com
Get real People and wake up, and READ THE BIBLE WORD FOR WORD for what it says LIKE THE BIBLE SAYS TO IN Isaiah Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: If everyone would read it this way and stop trying to interpret it, then everybody would get the same meaning out of the Bible.

When we try to interpret the Bible: we are just saying that the Lord did not know what he was talking about AND THIS IS WHAT HE MENT TO SAY.

Wake up People if the Lord would have wanted the bible to say something other than what it says IT WOULD BEEN WRITTEN DIFFERENTLY.

Rapture is not in the Bible Please read it for yourself

Mattthew is talking about the great falling away when people think they have mised the Rapture

Matthew 24:48-51. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Thes. 2:7-11. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The lie is the Rapture. Wake up People time is short.

My reply

> > Rapture is not in the Bible Please read it for yourself

You may call it Harpazo if you like. That is the Greek word translated "caught up" in I Thess. 4:17. In my Latin Version, the word used is "rapiemir." That is where our English word Rapture came from, but you don't have to use the English word. You can speak in Greek if you like. BTW, the word Trinity isn't in the Bible either. Yet, in Isa. 48:15 our Redeemer says, "now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Mt. 28:19 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

> > .Matthew 24:48-51: But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [49] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [50] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [51] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is what happens to the foolish virgin who is not ready when the Bridegroom comes at the Pre-Trib Rapture. The companion verse is Lu. 12:46: "The lord of that servant (the unwise one) will come (at the Pre-Trib Rapture) in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder (lit., cut him off), and will appoint him his portion (2300 days of the Tribulation) with the UNBELIEVERS."

The unwise servant also is referred to as a lukewarm Laodicean. In Rev. 3:16, Jesus said to him, "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue (emesai, vomit) thee out of my mouth." This is a Christian who is in Christ, but at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, gets vomited out to be chastised during the Tribulation. He will be caught up (harpazo) at the Pre-Wrath Rapture, when he has wised up and washed his robe to make it white in the blood of Christ (Rev. 7:14).

Jesus warns if one has an ear to hear. In Rev. 3:19, he said, "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." Repenting, he will use I John 1:9 and get back in fellowship with his Holy God. It says. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Remember when Peter didn't want Jesus to wash his feet? John 13:8 says, "Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me." Wise Philadelphian virgins have already confessed their sins. They are wearing the necessary white robes. They are trying to edify the Church, not tear it down. They are obeying the Lord and "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13). They are obeying the Lord's words in Lu. 21:36: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

> > 2 Thes. 2:7-11: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

> > The lie is the Rapture.

The lie is not the Rapture. The saints are the salt of the Earth. Salt in breadmaking must be carefully measured. Too little and the loaf overproofs. Too much and it won't rise. When the indwelling Holy Spirit takes the salt of the Earth to Heaven at the Pre-Trib Rapture, there won't be enough salt left on Earth. Evil will mushroom and puff up the whole loaf.

This lie comes after the saints are caught up in the Pre-Trib Rapture. It has to do with the wicked one, the Satan possessed False Prophet. He "deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live" (Rev. 13:14).

> > Wake up People time is short.

Wake up and be sure you get enough oil of the Holy Spirit so you will be ready when the Lord comes. The time is very short. Agape

Incoming email

Re: Rapture
How do people get the rapture from 1 Thessalonians ch.4 when the subject was were the dead are, not the return of Christ? Paul wrote the second epistle to address the return of Christ. It clearly states that we will not gather to Him until there comes a falling away(departure from the truth as stated in Amos8:11) and that son of perdition revealed. Son of perdition means he that is promised to perish. There is only one who has already been promised to perish and that is satan himself(Ezekiel 28:19). Isaiah14:12-18 also documents that this is none other than satan himself. 2Corinthians 11:14 again documents satan coming as an angel of light. He will claim to be Jesus coming to rapture the church away and that is why he will deceive the whole world except for God's elect. Zechariah 10:2 states woe to those who prophesy false dreams(Margarette McDonald). Christ never taught about the rapture in Mark 13 or Matthew 24 when he was specifically asked about his return. He warned not to be deceived by any man(or woman) who claimed Christ was already here. He said "after that tribulation" he would gather his elect. That is why we have the gospel armour to stand against satan (Ephesian ch.6) That is also why Revelation 2:10 states satan can cast you into prison and you will have tribulation 10 days. That means you will be here fighting against him with your gospel armour, which is nothing more than the word of God. God knew satan would be so convincing claiming to be God that he shortened the days(Matthew 24:22). If people aren't aware of this, satan will have no problem deceiving them.

If I am wrong in believing this way, then please give documentation to prove otherwise. I don't want to be misled so if I am wrong show me where. Thanks.

My reply

> > I don't want to be misled so if I am wrong show me where.

Ok. Will do.

> > How do people get the rapture from 1 Thessalonians ch.4 when the subject was were the dead are, not the return of Christ?

I Thess. 4:13-18 has nothing to do with the Second Advent, when Christ will set his feet on the Mt. of Olives and the mount will split (Zech. 14:4). It does have to do with Christ coming in the air prior to the Second Advent. He brings all the saints that have died with him from Heaven. Those saints get their resurrection bodies first, then the living saints "shall be CAUGHT UP (raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The word translated "caught up" is "harpazo" in the Greek. When "harpazo" was translated into Latin, the Latin word used in my Latin Bible is "rapiemur." Our English word Rapture comes from the Latin "rapiemur," or as Webster's Dictionary has it, "L raptus."

The Rapture was taught long before Margaret McDonald's time. I have an approx. 1500-word sermon written by Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627) of Syria in both Latin and English. In "On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World," he said, "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation (L. 'ante tribulationem'), which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

Webster's Dictionary lists "ante- prefix (ME, fr. L. fr. ante before, in front of...Gk anti before." This Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation, and was understood that way in earlier days as well as today.

> > we will not gather to Him until there comes a falling away (departure from the truth as stated in Amos 8:11) and that son of perdition revealed.

Amos 8:9-11 has nothing to say about the time before the Tribulation. It says, "it shall come to pass in that day (1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord), saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon (on the Day of God's Wrath, the asteroid pieces impact Earth at noon, Zeph. 2:4,5), and I will darken the earth in the clear day (from smoke and debris): And I will turn your feasts (it is the Feast of Trumpets) into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD." It will be 7 months after this day when Christ returns. During that 7 months, Israel will bury the dead bodies (Eze. 39:12,13).

II Thess. 2:1-9 says, " Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together (the Pre-Trib Rapture) unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (major MSS have 'day of the Lord,' i.e., the Millennium) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia, departure, i.e., the Rapture) first , and that man of sin be revealed (when the Beast and False Prophet confirm the covenant as the Tribulation begins), the son of perdition (the False Prophet); Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God (after he becomes Satan possessed Mid-Trib). Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth (the Holy Spirit restrains) that he (the False Prophet) might be revealed in his time (the Tribulation). For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let (Old English for he who now hinders will hinder), until he (the Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way (when he takes the Raptured saints to meet Christ in the air). And then (after the Rapture) shall that Wicked be revealed (the False Prophet will be revealed when he confirms the covenant as the Trilbulation starts), whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."

> > satan coming as an angel of light. He will claim to be Jesus coming to rapture the church away and that is why he will deceive the whole world except for God's elect.

Scripture does not say any such thing. We should only believe what Scripture says. It is the only rock-hard truth we have to go by. When the False Prophet rules the OWG and UR (One World Government and United Religions) during the last half of the Tribulation, he "deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

> > Christ never taught about the rapture in Mark 13 or Matthew 24 when he was specifically asked about his return.

That is because he was asked what would be the sign of his coming, meaning the Second Advent, since the Rapture was a mystery to be revealed later by Paul. The Rapture of the Church could not be taught plainly until after the Church was born on Pentecost.

> > He said "after that tribulation" he would gather his elect.

There are two Raptures, a Pre-Trib Rapture for the Bride of Christ and a Pre-Wrath Rapture for the rest of the Body of Christ. Mk. 13:27 says, "And then (1st day of the millennial Day of the Lord) shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH(Pre-Wrath Rapture) to the uttermost part of HEAVEN" (those taken to Heaven previously in the Pre-Trib Rapture). At this time just before the wrath of God is poured out, all his saints are called to "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."

They are called to the assembly for the Judgment Seat of Christ takes place that day. Rev. 11:18 says, "And the nations were angry (Israel is attacked by Gog's army), and thy WRATH is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARD unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, SMALL AND GREAT; and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth."

The 1st group to be raptured is seen in Heaven in Rev. 5:9. It says, "they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation." These are in Heaven before the 1st seal is broken.

The 2nd group to be raptured is seen in Heaven in Rev. 7:9,14. It says, "a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." These are in Heaven just before the 7th seal is broken.

The 1st Rapture is the first trump of GOD. It is described in I Thess. 4:13-18. The 2nd Rapture is the "last trump" of GOD. It is described in I Cor. 15:51,52. The 1st Rapture is as the days of Noah. No fire fell. The 2nd Rapture is as the days of Lot. "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" (Lu. 17:29). The 2nd Rapture is just before the 2 main asteroid pieces impact Earth (Rev. 8:8,10).

Hope this helps. If you have other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. Agape

Incoming email

I have been following the P&C's on your site for a little while now. It is very interesting to see different viewpoints on an even that could very well be imminent (Rapture). However, there is one concern that I wish to raise about the "signs" observed in the heavens. To me, it does not seem probable that the anchor cross formations in the sun and outside the solar system should be interpreted as the signs in the sun, moon, and stars that we are looking for in the end. The reason why is because they are not accessible to anyone without a telescope and/or a computer. Technology is required to view the anchor crosses that have been reported. For some reason, I think that the real signs would be seen by everyone, not just people with huge telescopes. Let's face it, most people in this world are poor, and are fortunate enough to have a roof over their head, clothing, and food, let alone internet technology and telescopes. Thus, a vast majority of believers in this world are likely to be poor. After all, our Lord did seem to prefer the "common" poor person in company than the rich. Jesus Christ pointed out that materialism would not get us anywhere in this world or the next. This is precisely why I dont think that something like those "anchors" are meant to be signs. Shouldn't the majority of us have access to the signs? The anchor crosses are not even in the news. So, even the rich and well off people like us have to comb very hard to find these things. Perhaps some of us are looking so hard for a sign that we will look everywhere possible for anchor crosses, doves, or rainbows. Doves and rainbows have been around for a long time, so I dont find these to be unusual in any way. As for the anchor crosses, as astronomy technology improves, we can see things that have never been seen before by mankind. So maybe the anchor crosses have always been there, it is simply the first chance that we have had to see them. So, I ask you and the people reading the pros and cons to please consider that the signs that God sends would be noticed by the typical believer, and not some scientist on a mountaintop with a very big telescope or by the fortunate American with the internet. Just like all of you, I really hope for a near future rapture. The signs that I see are the stumbling block of Jerusalem, the increase of knowledge, and the love of many growing cold, to name a few. God Bless

My reply

Lu. 21:25 literally says, "there shall be signs in the sun and the moon and the CONSTELLATIONS" as translated in the literal Concordant Version. The word "astrois" means constellations. "Aster" means star.

The anchor cross in the constellation VELA is in the same place the new star, NOVA VELORUM, appeared on Sivan 7, 1999 (May 22, 1999). How do you think we could see a sign in a constellation without a telescope? All the constellations are beyond Saturn, the last naked-eye planet. Not everyone has even seen Saturn.

In the LXX, the Greek scriptures used in Jesus' time, Job 36:32; 37;3 and 37:18-22 make this clear. They say, "He has hidden the light in his hands, and given charge concerning it to the interposing cloud (Saturn is surrounded with thick clouds)...His dominion is under the whole heaven, and HIS LIGHT IS AT THE EXTREMITIES OF THE EARTH (so his light reaches Earth).

"Wilt thou establish with him foundations for the ancient heavens?...But THE LIGHT IS NOT VISIBLE TO ALL; IT SHINES AFAR OFF IN THE HEAVENS, as that which is from HIM in the clouds. From the north (i.e., upward) come the CLOUDS SHINING LIKE GOLD (i.e., visible and golden, as Saturn's clouds are): in these great are the glory and honour of the Almighty" (Christ, Rev. 1:8).

> > I dont think that something like those "anchors" are meant to be signs.

You are welcome to your opinion, but how do you think two anchor crosses formed in two different places if the Lord didn't do it? Usually, there is just a cloud of material to be seen. It took some terrific power to cause it to form the bright anchor crosses in two different places that man could see. If, by any stretch of the imagination, you might think that one could form accidentally, like the Horsehead Nebula, how could the second one form in a different place and in a different way and still be an anchor cross?

> > rainbows have been around for a long time, so I dont find these to be unusual in any way.

If you had been driving in the end of the inner color bow of a huge double rainbow Ed and I drove in, you would think it was unusual enough to be a sign. It was like an absolute fairyland, like nothing I had even thought about before. How often do you even see a complete super bright double rainbow up close? The only time I can remember seeing a complete double rainbow before that was in Hawaii, and that was way off in the distance. This was up close. We were in it.

> > as astronomy technology improves, we can see things that have never been seen before by mankind. So maybe the anchor crosses have always been there.

You obviously have not been following astronomy closely. The first anchor cross could not have been there when the new star, NOVA VELORUM, was spotted there May 22, 1999. The SOHO images did not spot any anchor crosses on any day previous to the appearance of the 2nd sign in the Sun. SOHO takes pictures of the Sun all the time, every day, except for occasional breaks for maintenance or to protect it from a huge solar storm.

> > The signs that I see are the stumbling block of Jerusalem, the increase of knowledge, and the love of many growing cold

To me, the increase of knowledge includes the use of laboratories, libraries, cameras, telescopes and computers. Agape

   Pro and Con 573   Or Return   Home


Contact me for more information at: mjagee@pe.net


Send me e-mail now


8641 Sugar Gum Rd, Riverside, CA 92508, USA; (909) 653-4110


© 1996-2000, Marilyn J. Agee
Updated 8-12-00