Pro and Con 576

Posted 8-18-00

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FWD: USA Today-World, 8-18-00. Barak formally offers Palestinians a state.
JERUSALEM In Prime Minister Ehud Barak's clearest statement yet about Palestinian statehood, he offered the Palestinians an independent state if they formally end their conflict with Israel....
Speaking at a military college graduation ceremony, Barak left little room for doubt. ''If the Palestinian leadership is prepared to confront the challenge of setting up a Palestinian state and solving the hardships of its people,'' he said, ''it must understand that a condition for that is ending the conflict with Israel.''...

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Re: good post on 5D, 8-4-00
"THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES IS THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD" <>< RAPTURE ><> ...A while back, I was reading an article in which a group of archaeologists were being interviewed while in Israel...They were at the time involved in the excavation of a walled city. One of the experts mentioned that without fail, every walled city they had came across, where the walls had collapsed, they had collapsed inward, because of the physical pressure exerted by the enemy from the outside pushing in, using the different methods of the time.

The expert went on to say that the walls of Jericho, were different from any other walled city they had encountered anywhere in the world...the walls of Jericho, when it collapsed, rather than fall inward as all the others, Jericho's walls fell outward.

While most of the broken debris fell flat, and piled up near the foundation, all the rest of the debris came to rest further out in a gradually descending way. The archaeologists said they had never encountered this situation anywhere else, and said there is probably nothing else like it in world history.

As a consequence, the Israelites, when they entered the city, LITERALLY entered the city by climbing and ascending into the city, by going UP over the outward felled rocks and stonework of the wall!

So Joshua 6:20 above, is absolutely true! The Israelites literally did go UP, into the city! It was like ascending UP in a stairstep fashion. And as Caps and I have stated, Jericho is a type and shadow of the Feast of Tabernacles, regardless of how some wants to believe otherwise.

In Johns Gospel, Chapter 7, is what I call the Tabernacles chapter. In reading this chapter, we read that before actually departing for the Feast, the LORD JESUS is seen discussing the Feast, as well as the Apostle John...verses 8 and 10.

In verse 8, we read where the LORD JESUS is speaking of going to the Feast....HE speaks of going the Feast!

In verse 10, the Apostle John, by the HOLY GHOST speaks of the LORD JESUS going to the Feast. Again, the scripture...speaks of the LORD JESUS going the Feast.

So we see...both the LORD JESUS and the Disciples went "UP" the Feast of Tabernacles!

...the Bride is the SPIRITUAL TEMPLE of CHRIST JESUS, in which HE resides. This Temple that the LORD JESUS went UP into in verse 14, represents this Spiritual Temple of HIS people. It was during this time of the Feast of Tabernacles, where the Temple is referred to as being a place to ascend "UP" to...

...this just refers to the Saints who, during the Feast of Tabernacles, at the Rapture, will ascend "UP" to become the Fulness and Oneness of the Spiritual Temple of CHRIST JESUS...

My reply

At Jericho, they marched around the city 7 times and blew 7 trumpets. To me, that suggests the 7 trumpet judgments on the Feast of Trumpets, the first day of the millennial Day of the Lord. On that day, every wall will fall (Eze. 38:20).

Joshua 6:4,5 says, "seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets. And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him."

The 1st day of the Millennium is the day of the Pre-Wrath Rapture, not the Pre-Trib Rapture. Agape

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sounds like someone writing you about Jehovah has been confused by the Jehovah's Witnesses.

My Bible says Jehovah means Lord the word Jehovah came into being several hundred years ago and means Lord.

Strange isn't it they say Jehovah God and are calling the very Jesus they deny, God? I have had a few of them (Jehovah's Witnesses) come to my door and yes, they are far out and wrong. I got acquainted with them before they had their own bible written and they were just as wrong then, as now.

I realize you know all this but don't think you gave this person enough info about Jesus, sounds to me like they have something inside of them that is searching for the truth about Jesus as God. If they are a Jehovah's Witnesses they need to run not walk, away from them as fast as they can. Agape, a good word.

My reply

If you want details, here they are. The scriptures tell the story better than my words can do.

The Hebrew YHVH, called Yahweh or Jehovah, according to the method of transliteration used, is in the KJV written "LORD" and is only translated as Jehovah 4 times. GOD is the LORD JEHOVAH, the SAVIOUR and the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Isa. 12:2 says, "GOD is my SALVATION; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; HE ALSO IS BECOME MY SALVATION." Isa. 47:4 says, "As for OUR REDEEMER, the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME, the Holy One of Israel."

No man hath seen God the Father at any time, so each appearance of the Angel of the LORD to man was the pre-incarnate Christ, who is GOD ALMIGHTY and JEHOVAH. John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath (past tense) declared him." Ex. 6:3 says, "I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the NAME OF GOD ALMIGHTY, but by my NAME JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

CHRIST/YHVH/JEHOVAH/LORD OF HOSTS is the GOD OVER ALL THE EARTH. Psa. 83:18 says, "That men may know that thou, whose NAME alone is JEHOVAH, art the MOST HIGH OVER ALL THE EARTH." Isa. 26:4 says, "Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength." Isa. 54:5 says, "For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME; and thy REDEEMER the Holy One of Israel; The GOD OF THE WHOLE EARTH shall he be called." I Chron. 17:24 says, "Let it even be established, that thy name may be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS THE GOD OF ISRAEL, even a God to Israel: and let the house of David thy servant be established before thee."

YHVH, "LORD," usually refers to the pre-incarnate Christ, the Son of God. He is the only mediator between the Father and mankind. Gal. 3:19,20 says, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD is one." I Tim. 2:5 says, "there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Heb. 12:24 calls "Jesus the mediator of the new covenant."

As the pre-incarnate Christ, he also was the mediator of the first covenant. He is the one that talked with Moses. Ex. 34:4-6 says, "Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD (YHVH) had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. And the LORD (YHVH) descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD (YHVH) . And the LORD (YHVH) passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD (YHVH) , The LORD GOD, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth."

Prov. 30 4 asks, "Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is HIS NAME, and WHAT IS HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell?"

Mt. 28:19 says, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in THE NAME (one name) of the FATHER, and of the SON, and of the HOLY GHOST." De. 6:4 says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHVH) our God (Elohim) is one (echad, united) LORD (YHVH)." Isa. 42:8 says, "I am the LORD (YHVH): THAT IS MY NAME."

JESUS, YAHSHUA, YHVH OF HOSTS, EMMANUEL are names of God's Son. Psa. 68:4 says, "Sing unto GOD, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name JAH (Yah, short version of Yahweh, used in Yahshua, Yah saves), and rejoice before him."He has two complete natures. Isa. 9:6 says, "For unto us a child is born (inheriting his human nature from his mother), unto us a son is given (inheriting his Divine nature from his Father: and the government shall be upon his shoulder (in the millennial Day of the Lord): and HIS NAME shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace." In John 10:30, Jesus said, "I and my FATHER are one." Zech. 14:9 says, "And the LORD (YHVH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD (YHVH), and his name one." Isa. 63:16 says, "thou, O LORD (YHVH), art OUR FATHER, OUR REDEEMER; thy name is from everlasting."

Jesus Christ is both the first and the last, "LORD" of the OT and "Lord" of the NT. Isa. 44:6 says, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts; I am the first (YHVH King of Israel), and I am the last (YHVH of hosts); and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD." In Rev. 1:8, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY." In Rev. 22:13,16, Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. I am the root (YHVH OF HOSTS) and the offspring (JESUS) of David."

Isa. 48:2 says, "the GOD OF ISRAEL; The LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME." Jer. 15:16 says, "I am called by thy name, O LORD (YHVH) GOD OF HOSTS." Jer. 32:18 says, "the Great, THE MIGHTY GOD, the LORD (YHVH) OF HOSTS, IS HIS NAME." II Sam. 7:26 says, "let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD OF HOSTS IS THE GOD OVER ISRAEL: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee." II Sam. 6:2 says, "And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of GOD, whose name is called by the NAME of the LORD OF HOSTS that dwelleth between the cherubims." Isa. 51:15 says, " I am the LORD THY GOD, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME." Jer. 31:35 says, "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME." Jer. 50:34 says, "Their REDEEMER is strong; the LORD OF HOSTS IS HIS NAME: he shall throughly plead their cause, that he may give rest to the land, and disquiet the inhabitants of Babylon." Amos 5:27 says, "Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose NAME is The GOD OF HOSTS."

Jesus is Emmanuel, God with us. Isa. 7:14 says, "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his NAME IMMANUEL." Mt. 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his NAME EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Mt. 1:25 says, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS."

Gen. 4:26 says, "to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then BEGAN men to call upon the NAME of the LORD (YHVH)."

Gen. 12:7,8 says, "And the LORD (YHVH, pre-incarnate Christ) APPEARED unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD (YHVH), who APPEARED unto him. And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD (YHVH), and called upon the NAME of the LORD (YHVH)." Gen. 17:15,19 says, "And GOD said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be....And GOD said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." Gen. 21:33 says, "And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the NAME of the LORD (YHVH), the everlasting GOD."

Ex. 15:2,3 says, "The LORD (YHVH) is my strength and song, and he is become my SALVATION: he is MY GOD, and I will prepare him an habitation; MY FATHER'S GOD, and I will exalt him. The LORD (YHVH) is a man of war: the LORD (YHVH) is his NAME." Ex. 20:7 says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD (YHVH) THY GOD in vain." De. 28:58 says, "If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful NAME, THE LORD (YHVH) THY GOD."

Psa. 92:1 says, "IT IS A GOOD THING TO GIVE THANKS UNTO THE LORD, AND TO SING PRAISES UNTO THY NAME, O MOST HIGH." Psa. 124:8 says, "Our help is in the NAME OF THE LORD, who made heaven and earth."

Amos 5:8 says, "Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD (YHVH) is his NAME."

John 5:43 says, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Hos. 5:7,15;6:1-3 says, "the LORD (YHVH)...I will go and return to my PLACE (Jn. 14:2), till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early. Come, and let us return unto the LORD (YHVH): for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD (YHVH): his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."

Psa. 124:8 says, "Our help is in the NAME OF THE LORD (YHVH), who made heaven and earth."

Isa. 45:21-25 says, " I the LORD (YHVH)? and there is NO GOD ELSE BESIDES ME; a just GOD AND A SAVIOUR; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD (YHVH) have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD (YHVH) shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." Phil. 2:10: says, "That at the name of JESUS (Yahshua) every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth."

John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD." Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other NAME under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Agape

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Re: Age of Universe
you said: "If one considers how long it takes light to get to us from a star, other than the Sun, surely they should be able to see that the Universe was not created 6000 years ago. GRB 990123 (1999 Jan. 23) was the largest cosmic gamma-ray burster recognized by man since they identified the first one in 1967. It took place 9 billion light-years away. God plans long term."

Creation was fully mature when God created the heavens and the earth and all therein. By that I mean that Adam was a fully developed man, not an infant. There were fully grown trees, not saplings from seeds. The animals were mature adult animals. [Scripture provides the answer to that age old question: "Which came first, the chicken or the egg."] He spoke forth the diamonds, minerals, gold, silver and so forth and buried them in the earth.

Is it too difficult to believe that God created the heavens and provided the light from those heavenly bodies to the earth at the moment of creation? Is He not able to speak forth a fully mature universe, to set a complete, finished stage, in a moment of time or in six days? The speed of light does not limit God's ability to create an "aged" universe in six days. It should not factor into our analysis of the Genesis account. Test everything by Scripture as you often encourage us. Cheers

My reply

To me, Scripture indicates that there was an original creation that became waste and desolation. Of course, God can do whatever he wants, but this is what Scripture indicates.

Reshith, in the former state, originally, was translated in the KJV "In the beginning."

Gen. 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created (bara) the heaven and the earth." John 1:1-3 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him." So the Pre-incarnate Christ was "God" in Gen. 1:1. That is why "bara," created, is in the 3RD PERSON SINGULAR in Gen. 1:1.

In Hebrew, hayah, to be, is omitted when there is no change, as in "darkness was upon the face of the deep. The word "was" is italicized so we can be sure it had to be supplied by the translators. That is correct for there was no change indicated there. The darkness was an existing condition. When v. 2 says, "And the earth was without form (tohu, ruin) and void (bohu, desolation)," the word "was" is not in italics, for "hayah" is there in the Hebrew to show us that a change had taken place.

Gen. 1:1,2 contrasts the original condition with a later condition. The original cosmos (order of things) became chaos resulting from judgment. It was a scene of disaster and catastrophe.

In v. 3, "God said, Let there be light: and there was (not italicized, meaning "became") light." Thus a change is indicated. The verb form of "to be" is only used for a change of state, condition or circumstance.

In v. 6, "God said, Let there be a firmament (expanse of space) in the midst of the waters." The word "be" is not in italics, because it indicates that a change is being accomplished.

In v. 9, "God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together into ONE PLACE (the Pacific Basin), and let the dry land appear." The word "be" is not in italics, because this was a change. The waters had to swiftly run into the basin that had been blasted out for them.

In v. 14, "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven." The word "be" is not in italics, for the smoke and clouds had to be blown away for these lights to be seen from Earth. There was a change. The meaning of change when the verb form is given is consistent.

In v. 16, "God made (asah, appointed, as in Amos 3:6) two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made (in italics) the stars also." He did not create them that day. They were already there, but obscured by smoke and clouds. He didn't create the stars then. They too were appointed at that time "to give light upon the earth."

Isa. 51:9 says, " Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD (Christ, Isa. 53:1,5); awake, as in the ANCIENT DAYS, in the GENERATIONS OF OLD. Art thou not it that hath cut (split) Rahab (Satan's planet), and wounded the dragon? Agape

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Re: My Double Rainbow Story
Trying to catch up on your p/c's and just read #545 where there were several posts regarding rainbows. Had to share my story: A couple of weeks ago, feeling rather battle weary and discouraged, I said in my heart "Lord, I sure wish I could have some sort of sign from you that your coming is near." (I guess we all need a pick-me-up once in a while!) Anyway that evening driving home from church with my family we saw the most incredible DOUBLE RAINBOW here in Ohio. It took up the entire horizon of the sky. It was beautiful and rather unusual because the skies on the outside of the rainbow were dark and stormy but strangely enough, on the inside they were clear! It was most unusual! I don't know what this means other than a gentle reminder from Him that "As it was in the days of Noah..."

Anyway, thanks for your hard work in keeping this site up. Only heaven will tell how much you've been used to keep weary saints from getting discouraged in these last days! I for one was led here three years ago and have been truly blessed and encouraged. Hope to see you soon. Love, --- (Your "Good News Club" sister in Christ!)

My reply

Thanks for sharing this with me. The one we drove into the end of the R inner color bow was an even dark blue between the 2 color bows. The sky outside, above and below, was lighter. Yours was different. The Lord probably makes them different so we will recognize that it is his work.

In Gen. 9:12,13, "God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set MY BOW in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth." Agape

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The Lord asked me to WARN the body of Christ with these two scriptures."While the bridegroom tarried they ALL slumbered and slept",Matthew 25 verse5.The other scripture is from the book of Luke; Chapter 14 verse 18,"and they ALL with one consent began to make excuse." Marilyn,I wished the scripture used the word "MANY", but the scripture says ALL!We need to stay ready. God Bless!...I believe the Rapture is very close!

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From: David Hill
Re: The Son of Satan
Dan 8: "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to THE HOST OF HEAVEN; and it cast down SOME OF THE HOST AND OF THE STARS to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the PRINCE OF THE HOST, and by him the DAILY SACRIFICE was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down....

In the...quote above, in Daniel, you have a passage of Scripture that has been kind of an enigma to me for several years. In it, the a.c. is pictured as exaulting himself up above the Host of Heaven, even unto the Prince of the Host. This, is exactly the same thing that apparently occured in Babylon before the Flood, when there was war in Heaven.

However, what the mystery is, concerns how it could be possible for the antiChrist to CAST SOME OF THE HOST AND THE STARS TO EARTH and stamp on them. We know, according to Rev 12, that Satan will accomplish this very thing. However, in this verse in Daniel, IT IS THE ANTICHRIST that somehow wins power over the Host of Heaven and the Stars (which are obviously angels) and casts them to the ground. Now, IF the antiChrist is a normal, mortal, sinful man, then this verse is impossible to be fulfilled. If it were possible for Satan to possess someone, and then ascend to Heaven in his body, then it would obvously have already been done by now. The point is, that this is impossible to accomplish, even for satan. But here, in Daniel, the antiChrist exhaults himself unto the Prince of the Host of Heaven, and casts some of them to the ground....

My reply

In Scofield's note, it says, "This passage (vs. 10-14) is confessedly the most difficult in prophecy." You almost have it figured out right. You know that it is Satan himself that causes 1/3rd of the angels to be cast down. That is clear in Rev. 12:3,4. You also know that Satan enters into the False Prophet Mid-Trib. This is when the False Prophet becomes the final Antichrist.

Here is the way the actual events look to me. In the middle of the Tribulation, there is war in Heaven. Michael and his angels cast down Satan and his angels to Earth (Rev. 12:-9). Satan enters into the False Prophet and heads for the temple to sit there "shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4). He also places an idol at the temple. This desecration and abomination of desolation causes the sacrificing to cease.

There is a progression seen in Dan. 8:9,10,11. First, Dan. 8:9 speaks of the False Prophet only (of whom Antiochus Epiphanes was a type). Second, verse 10 speaks of Satan only. Third, verse 11 finally speaks of Satan IN the False Prophet. The transition is in verse 11. It says, "Yea, he (Satan) magnified himself even to the prince of the host (Michael), and by him (the Satan-possessed False Prophet) the daily sacrifice was taken away."

Hope this helps. Agape

Excerpts from incoming email and my comments

> > Now we learned in Daniel that ten kings meet with an eleventh king, and they come from the once Roman ruled portion of the Moslem Empire, and that meeting results in opting for peace rather than war. Then we find that three of those kings dissent and would rather fight, and they are uprooted. But, that's after the peace! That's the red horse of war that follow the white horse of peace.

> > There is not a word in scripture for this time about a war prior to the peace.

I don't think the 10 kings "come from the once Roman ruled portion of the Moslem Empire."

I agree that there will be peace at the beginning of the Tribulation. I think the 7 heads of the great red dragon represent world empires. The 6th world empire is the OWG (One World Government) headed up by the Beast, the Tribulation Pope from Vatican City in Rome, who also heads up the UR (United Religions). I think the 10 kings that are subordinate to him are the leaders that are placed at the head of each of the 10 regions that this world has already been divided into.

The 7th head of the great red dragon is the False Prophet, a Jew, probably from the tribe of Dan. When he comes to full power Mid-Trib, he will be Satan possessed and pull 3 of the 10 subordinate kings up by the roots. The False Prophet is that other little horn in Daniel.

> > Now, since Rome was ruling, it had to be the sixth Kingdom, as 5 had already fallen. Two of those kingdoms came on the scene prior to Daniel - Egypt and Assyria, they were #1 and #2. Then Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar's great image, and in it are 7 more kingdoms. Babylon, which is #1 to Daniel, but #3 to Revelation 17, then Medo-Persia, #4, then Grecia #5 (the kingdom that WAS, before Rome), then Rome #6, the kingdom that IS at the time John is getting this, and then one yet to come. Now by the time of Rome, #6, we are at the Legs of Iron on the great Image.

Rev. 17:9-12 says, " And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

I think the time, or setting, of this chapter is right after the Pre-Trib Rapture, but before the Tribulation begins. Verse 14 speaks of Christ "and they that ARE with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. The "ten kings...have received NO kingdom AS YET" (v. 12), so the Tribulation has not started. Those kings are crowned as the Tribulation starts in Rev. 13:1.

I think the five world empires that have fallen are (1) Babel (where the Mystery Religion of Babylon began), (2) Babylon, (3) Media-Persia, (4) Greece and (5) Rome. The one that "IS" in power at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture is the Pope. The OTHER that is not yet come is the Satan-possessed False Prophet, who comes to full power Mid-Trib. The eighth is Satan himself. He operates on his own after the False Prophet is deposed on the Day of God's Wrath, the 2300th day of the Tribulation. Agape, Marilyn

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